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I don't understand why people are jumping over hurdles to give their tac squad seargent a power fist. 25pts for a str8 weapon that ONLY WORKS in close combat? WHY? When you can get a str 8 (or a blast) weapon for FREE thet has 48" of range! Sure its a heavy weapon, but you spend one turn not moving and shooting it . You spend SEVERAL turns moving towords your target tank (or you throw away a KP on a Rhino or Dropod).
Powerfist-25pts
Pros: Close combat
Cons: 25ts, Close combat ONLY, sacrifice your whole squad for only 1 str 8 attack, REQUIRES transport, takes several turns or a dropod.

M.launcher- Free (substitute a boltgun)
Pros: Free, 48" range, your squad is safe, can fire multiple shots safely, no transport neccicary, can fire at many targets over many turns, can also shoot as a blast,
Cons: Heavy, substitute boltgun,

I just don't get why so many people are jumping at the opportunity to sacrafice 2 KPs (squad and transport) and all those points for only 1 str 8 hit. Yes, you can also equip your squad with a meltagun or a combi melta, but thats not what I am talking about, so many people do not include these yet they still give their squad a powerfist. I am not seeing the logistics here.

Why do people do it????

I'd say the powerfist is not used offensively. It's used defensively to discourage walkers (such as dreadnaughts) from charging into the squad

It's also use to insta-gib ICs that charge at the squad

In short, it's a deterrent

severedblue wrote:I'd say the powerfist is not used offensively. It's used defensively to discourage walkers (such as dreadnaughts) from charging into the squad

It's also use to insta-gib ICs that charge at the squad

In short, it's a deterrent

But I'm not seeing the deterent of it, oh no a Str8 Initiative 1 hit. Thats way less scarry than a M.launcher any day. I wouldn't mind dropping a dread right in front of a tac squad if their best weapon was a powerfist (and for those of you who know me, you know that is really saying something from me).

Ryan_A wrote:I don't understand why people are jumping over hurdles to give their tac squad seargent a power fist. 25pts for a str8 weapon that ONLY WORKS in close combat? WHY? When you can get a str 8 (or a blast) weapon for FREE thet has 48" of range! Sure its a heavy weapon, but you spend one turn not moving and shooting it . You spend SEVERAL turns moving towords your target tank (or you throw away a KP on a Rhino or Dropod).
Powerfist-25pts
Pros: Close combat
Cons: 25ts, Close combat ONLY, sacrifice your whole squad for only 1 str 8 attack, REQUIRES transport, takes several turns or a dropod.

M.launcher- Free (substitute a boltgun)
Pros: Free, 48" range, your squad is safe, can fire multiple shots safely, no transport neccicary, can fire at many targets over many turns, can also shoot as a blast,
Cons: Heavy, substitute boltgun,

I just don't get why so many people are jumping at the opportunity to sacrafice 2 KPs (squad and transport) and all those points for only 1 str 8 hit. Yes, you can also equip your squad with a meltagun or a combi melta, but thats not what I am talking about, so many people do not include these yet they still give their squad a powerfist. I am not seeing the logistics here.

Why do people do it????

The space marine with a hidden power fist is my mortal enemy as a nid player. Too many times have I seen that smug guy punch out my monstrous creatures by wounding on a 2+ and ignoring their saves.

Kain wrote:
The space marine with a hidden power fist is my mortal enemy as a nid player. Too many times have I seen that smug guy punch out my monstrous creatures by wounding on a 2+ and ignoring their saves.

I got 30 sternguard who love nids. Each shot can be a variety of things, one of which is poison 2+. So ya, monsterous creatures, yes please

It's actually two attacks, three on the charge. The assault phase also tends to be more decisive than shooting.

Ryan_A wrote:

Kain wrote:
The space marine with a hidden power fist is my mortal enemy as a nid player. Too many times have I seen that smug guy punch out my monstrous creatures by wounding on a 2+ and ignoring their saves.

I got 30 sternguard who love nids. Each shot can be a variety of things, one of which is poison 2+. So ya, monsterous creatures, yes please

This is part of the reason why my lovingly painted carnifexes will only ever be pulled out in "bring everything" apocalypse games.

In regards to walkers - close combat is generally a haven for them - they can tear things up without having to worry about being shot at from anti-vehicle fire.

The Powerfist negates this to a degree - allowing a few str8 hits in close combat, whereelse the unit would just slowly peel away without effect.

They generally also allow for that one "guaranteed" kill, I suppose.

I dunno, I'm an Ork player, I put Powerklaws in all of my infantry units due to pure necessity - so I'm clearly biased :p

Raxmei wrote:It's actually two attacks, three on the charge. The assault phase also tends to be more decisive than shooting.

They are tac squads though, so 6" movement means they are getting charged. And if you are getting charged by a designated squad, your initiative 1 maybe will get one turn of hitting, and if you give each one of your tac squads one, most likely you are only ganna use one of those. But if you have an M.launcher, you are pretty much garunteed to shoot that thing if you want to. and for 75 pts, you can get a heck of a lot better than 3 power fists for tac squads.


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Kharrak wrote:In regards to walkers - close combat is generally a haven for them - they can tear things up without having to worry about being shot at from anti-vehicle fire.

The Powerfist negates this to a degree - allowing a few str8 hits in close combat, whereelse the unit would just slowly peel away without effect.

They generally also allow for that one "guaranteed" kill, I suppose.

I dunno, I'm an Ork player, I put Powerklaws in all of my infantry units due to pure necessity - so I'm clearly biased :p

Good point!

Ryan_A wrote:

Raxmei wrote:It's actually two attacks, three on the charge. The assault phase also tends to be more decisive than shooting.

They are tac squads though, so 6" movement means they are getting charged. And if you are getting charged by a designated squad, your initiative 1 maybe will get one turn of hitting, and if you give each one of your tac squads one, most likely you are only ganna use one of those. But if you have an M.launcher, you are pretty much garunteed to shoot that thing if you want to. and for 75 pts, you can get a heck of a lot better than 3 power fists for tac squads.

Think about it this way... the powerfist is expensive and pretty situational, but it gives you a chance

if your TAC squad got charged and it didn't have a powerfist, it basically has no chance against that T8 walker that just charged you. Your squad either gets tarpitted, or cheesed. At least if you have a powerfist, the player owning the walker will think: hmm, this may end badly.

Otherwise charging you is a no-brainer, either with that walker or that powerhouse IC (Abbaddon? Eldrad?) that you had a chance to instajib.

Anyway, you can bubble wrap your powerfist so that it's further behind, and appears in the second round of combat, rather than the first, when you get charged.


You are also looking at the rules errornously in vaccuum, the invalid assumptions you are making are
1) you will always shoot and kill something before it charges you, and

2) that 75 points will buy you something that is always better than a power first on that TAC squad sitting on the objective

I'm sure the marine with the missile launcher would be very useful in close combat with a Carnifex...

I have a friend who runs a really nice Crimson Fist drop pod army with Cantor. He puts 1 fist on his Sternguard sergreant. He faces my Grey Hunters, and even without the Pedro bonus, the two attacks from the SternGuard regularly turns the tide against my Wolves, or even my Templars who have rerolls.

That 1 attack on a normal sergeant at Str8 can mean the difference in a combat. It can kill an IC or a dread or a sentinel.

If the squad is tied up in combat, or wiped out by a character, it can't shoot the missile launcher, can it? But it can always swing the fist, and there are 10-14 assault phases as opposed to 5-7 shooting phases. Odds are you'll get your money's worth out of the fist.

Ryan_A wrote:

Raxmei wrote:It's actually two attacks, three on the charge. The assault phase also tends to be more decisive than shooting.

They are tac squads though, so 6" movement means they are getting charged. And if you are getting charged by a designated squad, your initiative 1 maybe will get one turn of hitting, and if you give each one of your tac squads one, most likely you are only ganna use one of those. But if you have an M.launcher, you are pretty much garunteed to shoot that thing if you want to. and for 75 pts, you can get a heck of a lot better than 3 power fists for tac squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kharrak wrote:In regards to walkers - close combat is generally a haven for them - they can tear things up without having to worry about being shot at from anti-vehicle fire.

The Powerfist negates this to a degree - allowing a few str8 hits in close combat, whereelse the unit would just slowly peel away without effect.

They generally also allow for that one "guaranteed" kill, I suppose.

I dunno, I'm an Ork player, I put Powerklaws in all of my infantry units due to pure necessity - so I'm clearly biased :p

Good point!

Reading all your replies it seems that you are being very one-eyed and are not open to what people are saying.

What everyone said is correct, they are used more of a detterent than an actual offensive weapon.

Sure it is INT 1, but with STR 8, it makes people second guess rushing into combat with a walker or Nobs and the like. That second guess will make people worry more about said walker and maybe lose sight of something else. It is all about tactics, not 'Look at my shiny power fist!'.

Just my 2 cents.

severedblue wrote:
Think about it this way... the powerfist is expensive and pretty situational, but it gives you a chance

if your TAC squad got charged and it didn't have a powerfist, it basically has no chance against that T8 walker that just charged you. Your squad either gets tarpitted, or cheesed. At least if you have a powerfist, the player owning the walker will think: hmm, this may end badly.

Otherwise charging you is a no-brainer, either with that walker or that powerhouse IC (Abbaddon? Eldrad?) that you had a chance to instajib.

Anyway, you can bubble wrap your powerfist so that it's further behind, and appears in the second round of combat, rather than the first, when you get charged.


You are also looking at the rules errornously in vaccuum, the invalid assumptions you are making are
1) you will always shoot and kill something before it charges you, and

2) that 75 points will buy you something that is always better than a power first on that TAC squad sitting on the objective

I'm sure the marine with the missile launcher would be very useful in close combat with a Carnifex...

1. My personal experience is you don't need a powerfist for infantry
and
2. Meltabombs are much better for one fifth the price.

The power fist is not as popular as you believe. Some people swear by it and others do not like it. Personally, it always seems too expensive and i have another unit i can take with the combined cost of 2-3 fists. If you have combat tactics in your army, it is by no means necessary. In a Vulcan list though...

KGatch113 wrote:
I have a friend who runs a really nice Crimson Fist drop pod army with Cantor. He puts 1 fist on his Sternguard sergreant. He faces my Grey Hunters, and even without the Pedro bonus, the two attacks from the SternGuard regularly turns the tide against my Wolves, or even my Templars who have rerolls.

That 1 attack on a normal sergeant at Str8 can mean the difference in a combat. It can kill an IC or a dread or a sentinel.

If the squad is tied up in combat, or wiped out by a character, it can't shoot the missile launcher, can it? But it can always swing the fist, and there are 10-14 assault phases as opposed to 5-7 shooting phases. Odds are you'll get your money's worth out of the fist.

First off, I know this may sound mean, I don't mean it like that, but... "But it can always swing the fist," LOL sure it can always swing the fist! Especially when its not in close combat, it can swing the fist all the in the air like a madman!
Sorry I couldn't resist.

Why wouldn't your friend use the bolters special ammo instead, especially against grey hunters.

I know the Str8 can mean the difference, which is why I love M.launchers.

If you are ganna assault, do it right. I have 30 assault marines, and my seargents there all have powerfists, I got nothing at all against the power fist, in fact, I love the power fist but on a tac squad it is not logical.

I do crimson fists and I need all the sergeants with a fist. (even scouts have one). No exception for me not to put it

Sierra02 wrote:
Reading all your replies it seems that you are being very one-eyed and are not open to what people are saying.

What everyone said is correct, they are used more of a detterent than an actual offensive weapon.

Sure it is INT 1, but with STR 8, it makes people second guess rushing into combat with a walker or Nobs and the like. That second guess will make people worry more about said walker and maybe lose sight of something else. It is all about tactics, not 'Look at my shiny power fist!'.

Just my 2 cents.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what they are saying, however I don't agree it is the best thing. I think a meltabomb is 300% better as a detteret, better yet, lets hope they forget, that thing can actually do something to a vehicle!

And hey, if they are coming at you with infantry, whip out that flamer!

I know I seem like a total jerk, I just think it is more considerate not to directly say what I mean, at least more effecient.


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spartiatis wrote:The power fist is not as popular as you believe. Some people swear by it and others do not like it. Personally, it always seems too expensive and i have another unit i can take with the combined cost of 2-3 fists. If you have combat tactics in your army, it is by no means necessary. In a Vulcan list though...

Thats what I am saying.

At my local shop, EVERY tac squad of the competitive SM lists have em, it just seems to me that everyone loves them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Diabolical13 wrote:I do crimson fists and I need all the sergeants with a fist. (even scouts have one). No exception for me not to put it

But bolters are so much better against infantry (ESPECIALLY YOURS!), and meltabombs are so much better against vehicles!

One eyed indeed. You ask a question, we give you an answer, yet you argue and cannot accept the answer we give. Okay.

KGatch113 wrote:That 1 attack on a normal sergeant at Str8 can mean the difference in a combat. It can kill an IC or a dread or a sentinel.

If the squad is tied up in combat, or wiped out by a character, it can't shoot the missile launcher, can it? But it can always swing the fist, and there are 10-14 assault phases as opposed to 5-7 shooting phases. Odds are you'll get your money's worth out of the fist.

QFT, that is why you bring a powerfist.

Ryan_A wrote:Why wouldn't your friend use the bolters special ammo instead, especially against grey hunters.

Because, when you get into CC (which will happen invariably), bolters and special ammo become useless.

Creed and his command squad found this out when they fought my wraithlord in my last game. My opponent had no troops he could also charge in to dig Creed out of CC. He had to wait until I fragged his unit over the course of 4 turns, then gun me down.

Ryan_A wrote:
If you are ganna assault, do it right. I have 30 assault marines, and my seargents there all have powerfists, I got nothing at all against the power fist, in fact, I love the power fist but on a tac squad it is not logical.

You mistake it. The powerfist isn't a tactic. It is insurance. Do you understand the difference?

Ryan_A wrote:
2. Meltabombs are much better for one fifth the price.

Meltabombs are tactically less flexible and more situational than the powerfist (e.g. you don't get extra attacks for charging, and you don't use the characters attacks stat) hence they are cheaper

Pretty much what severed blue said...How good is your ML in CC? It seems to me as if you are very much cherry picking when arguing. You are always taking the worst case scenario for a fist and compare it to the ideal case for the ML. When you have played more than one game you will start to realize that not everything is so black and white.

Just curious, how do you keep your sternguards out of CC range yet somehow you manage to shoot everything with their bolters? Dubble tap range is 12"...

severedblue wrote:One eyed indeed. You ask a question, we give you an answer, yet you argue and cannot accept the answer we give. Okay.

KGatch113 wrote:That 1 attack on a normal sergeant at Str8 can mean the difference in a combat. It can kill an IC or a dread or a sentinel.

If the squad is tied up in combat, or wiped out by a character, it can't shoot the missile launcher, can it? But it can always swing the fist, and there are 10-14 assault phases as opposed to 5-7 shooting phases. Odds are you'll get your money's worth out of the fist.

QFT, that is why you bring a powerfist.

Ryan_A wrote:Why wouldn't your friend use the bolters special ammo instead, especially against grey hunters.

Because, when you get into CC (which will happen invariably), bolters and special ammo become useless.

Creed and his command squad found this out when they fought my wraithlord in my last game. My opponent had no troops he could also charge in to dig Creed out of CC. He had to wait until I fragged his unit over the course of 4 turns, then gun me down.

Ryan_A wrote:
If you are ganna assault, do it right. I have 30 assault marines, and my seargents there all have powerfists, I got nothing at all against the power fist, in fact, I love the power fist but on a tac squad it is not logical.

You mistake it. The powerfist isn't a tactic. It is insurance. Do you understand the difference?

Ryan_A wrote:
2. Meltabombs are much better for one fifth the price.

Meltabombs are tactically less flexible and more situational than the powerfist (e.g. you don't get extra attacks for charging, and you don't use the characters attacks stat) hence they are cheaper

I mean no disrespect when I offer a counterpoint, I just think the best way to come to the best conclusion is if all the pros and cons are layed out. I offer counterpoints because that is what I think, there have been many, many, people who I have ended up agreeing with, Im new, but if you look at my other posts, I agree after some back and fourth and we all gain knowledge for it. I am deeply sorry if I seem rude.

I think having a specialized weapon for your opponent is more effective than having a mildly efective weapon for every oponent, I also am very KP and point conservative, these are where the majority of my views on 40K come from. I am also a student in Philosophy, thus point counterpoint is daily routine for me and nobody takes offense in class. But it is my bad that I am not translating from a philosophy class to a general 40k discussion forum, thanks for bringing it to my attention, I'll make sure I will edit my signature to better elaborate this.

Thanks much.

Oh, by the way, melta bombs? You need 6's to hit against walkers in CC.

Powerfists (and Thunder hammers, where available) are pretty much what you need if you're (a) looking to assault walkers and (b) looking to give them any notion of deterrence.

Of course, one would need to argue how common walkers are in the current meta...

tedurur wrote:Pretty much what severed blue said...How good is your ML in CC? It seems to me as if you are very much cherry picking when arguing. You are always taking the worst case scenario for a fist and compare it to the ideal case for the ML. When you have played more than one game you will start to realize that not everything is so black and white.

Just curious, how do you keep your sternguards out of CC range yet somehow you manage to shoot everything with their bolters? Dubble tap range is 12"...

I have played several games, the 11 games I have listed is tourneys and games which have cash wagers on them.

I apologize for how rude I must have seemed, I am deeply sorry.

I am a student of Philosophy, so cherry picking on the worst case scenarios is how I think.

I use LRs to drive my Sternguard up to the enemy and unload them. Thats the basic of it.

Thanks much for all your input, and again, I am very sorry for being rude.

I used to run them all the time with Power Fists but recently I've not bothered. If worse case I get charged by a walker there is still Krak Grenades, fair enough you only get one attack each and they're glancing stuff like dreads on a 6 (power fist is still only glancing on a 5 mind you). Then again I'm not running a Vulkan list so once the first round of cc is over if the walker is still alive all I have to do is fall back and melta him into tomorrow

Well sorry if I was a little terse. You're not being rude just (I will say so sincerely) willfully ignorant. I just find that irritating.



A pro tip- if your argument is fantastic, cherry picking is unnecessary, being stubborn is unnecessary

a good point speaks for itself without the need for sophistry, sophistry being a poor substitute for a well thought out argument



That being said, if you put a powerfist on every TAC squad, that is being wasteful, I'll agree

but if you've got a TAC squad claiming the objective in your opponent's quarter and he has three dreadnoughts, a powerfist may be smart

ryan_a wrote:
I think having a specialized weapon for your opponent is more effective than having a mildly efective weapon for every oponent,

Then you should play Eldar and realise how distressing it can be when the chaos of battle ensures you don't have the right tool at the right time, and you are forced to improvise.

ryan_a wrote:
I also am very KP and point conservative, these are where the majority of my views on 40K come from.

Points is fine, as per the point above. But watching a 200PT IC get insta-killed by a 25pt powerfist is priceless. Watching them sweat before they charge they IC in is nearly as good.

And KPs aren't as important in this edition of the game as previous editions. Holding objectives is king now, or so it would seem.

ryan_a wrote:
I am also a student in Philosophy, thus point counterpoint is daily routine for me and nobody takes offense in class.

I would contend to you that there are good counterpoints and bad ones. I would say yours are poor because they are based on wilfully ignoring or downplaying the points of others. And, if someone makes a good point that breaks yours, it would be smarter to concede and say, "well that's a good point "

rather than digging in and saying you refuse to accept to the answer, having asked the question

ryan_a wrote:
But it is my bad that I am not translating from a philosophy class to a general 40k discussion forum, thanks for bringing it to my attention, I'll make sure I will edit my signature to better elaborate this.

There is no need to qualify yourself as a philosophy major. All you need to do is make points that stand on their own, without the need to stick fingers in the ears and say "lalalalalala"

probably better would be to ask questions in the tradition of the socratic method, rather than using fallaciously using anecdotes

all good

severedblue wrote:Well sorry if I was a little terse. You're not being rude just (I will say so sincerely) willfully ignorant. I just find that irritating.



A pro tip- if your argument is fantastic, cherry picking is unnecessary, being stubborn is unnecessary

a good point speaks for itself without the need for sophistry, sophistry being a poor substitute for a well thought out argument



That being said, if you put a powerfist on every TAC squad, that is being wasteful, I'll agree

but if you've got a TAC squad claiming the objective in your opponent's quarter and he has three dreadnoughts, a powerfist may be smart

Thank you so much for your honesty.
Without a doubt, if an argument holds no fallacies then no defense is necessary.
I do not believe in the arguments I post here, THAT IS WHY I POST THEM, because I don't have faith in them, and I need people to better underline what is wrong in my argument so I can better counterbalance them and we all can benefit.

Thank you so much for your input, would you reccomend a meltabomb, powerweapon, and combi melta, or would you rather a powerfist. I think the previous is better, what do you think?

I'm not a marine player, so it's probably better to ask one

the way I'd think about it, if I was, however

knowing that power firsts are good against MCs, walkers and ICs

how likely am I to use a powerfist in the TAC squad I am deploying in any given game?

how likely will that powerfist turn the tide of the game?



You're basically paying a premium for an insurance policy. If you don't believe you need the insurance policy, don't buy it e.g. don't give it to min-sized tac squads you're using in Razorspam.

Just don't cry if my wraithlord eats your TAC squad lol

severedblue wrote:

I would contend to you that there are good counterpoints and bad ones. I would say yours are poor because they are based on wilfully ignoring or downplaying the points of others. And, if someone makes a good point that breaks yours, it would be smarter to concede and say, "well that's a good point "

rather than digging in and saying you refuse to accept to the answer, having asked the question


All you need to do is make points that stand on their own, without the need to stick fingers in the ears and say "lalalalalala"

probably better would be to ask questions in the tradition of the socratic method, rather than using fallaciously using anecdotes

all good

To be perfectly fair on myself. In this thread I have only put out 3 counterarguments to where I see some of the points of the powerfists failing, I also did say, "good point," in this thread, and my other posts (and one of my counterarguments) I said my preference. I don't think I am being as severe as sticking my fingers in my ears or making bad counterpoints.

I would love to see an ML and special ammunition bolters being used in close combat.

I am neither pro nor against powerfists on tac squads, but saying "why don't you just shoot them" when it's not guaranteed that you're not going to get charged is silly. Even if you do have combat tactics, it's not guaranteed that you can get out of assault.

starsdawn wrote:I would love to see an ML and special ammunition bolters being used in close combat.

I am neither pro nor against powerfists on tac squads, but saying "why don't you just shoot them" when it's not guaranteed that you're not going to get charged is silly. Even if you do have combat tactics, it's not guaranteed that you can get out of assault.

Though 95% of the time you will have at least 2 turns prior to being assaulted. My view is merky because I love assaults (have had raven guards sternguard with pedro kantor so assault galore). I don't have combat tactics just to put out there for info. My problem is the chance that you will use it is low, then the chance that you will be effective with it is medium.

However, without a doubt they seem to diswade enemies, at least a little bit more, and there is a chance that they are very effective.

Best way to put it; gives your marines a far better chance to live through and tie/win assaults, gives you a way to hurt MCs and dreads in cc, and looks cooler than a sword. I like mine for dreads personally, nades suck at taking down dreads.