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They should strike, let's see how begruding the population becomes when there isn't anyone to stop them being shot or stop their house burning to the ground.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:They should strike, let's see how begruding the population becomes when there isn't anyone to stop them being shot or stop their house burning to the ground.

Will the state let me hire someone to protect my house against it burning into the ground? Or will they maintain that public fire departments are the only ones allowed?

If the former, then we'll get the answer to Redbeard's question:

Redbeard wrote:How much can the taxpayer afford for the man who will run into his burning house to save him, his family, and his wiener dogs?

Redbeard wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
You must have missed the GSA fiasco and firefighters retiring on $300,000 a year. Hey I respect that and would get it if I could. but the taxpayer can't afford it.

How much can the taxpayer afford for the man who will run into his burning house to save him, his family, and his wiener dogs?

If the multi-million dollar bonuses paid out by the banks were taxed at a fair rate, the firefighter might be able to afford a reasonable retirement.

My house has volunteer firefighters actually...

biccat wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:They should strike, let's see how begruding the population becomes when there isn't anyone to stop them being shot or stop their house burning to the ground.

Will the state let me hire someone to protect my house against it burning into the ground? Or will they maintain that public fire departments are the only ones allowed?

If the former, then we'll get the answer to Redbeard's question:

Redbeard wrote:How much can the taxpayer afford for the man who will run into his burning house to save him, his family, and his wiener dogs?

So, when you look to hire this private peacekeeper and life saver, presumably you'll factor in cost?

Because of all the dakka users hereabouts, I want you to save all the money you can in doing it.

Personally don't want competitive pricing to be the deciding factor for the guys being sent into battle with well armed drug cartels or wading into a burning warehouse of chemicals to stop a poisonous cloud descending on my town.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:They should strike, let's see how begruding the population becomes when there isn't anyone to stop them being shot or stop their house burning to the ground.

They can't strike in many states.

Remember, as the ancient Budha said: you will not be missed.
Police and firefighters are one thing frankly, the mouth breathers in the rest are something else entirely. Regardless, states can't afford them any more.
If you're concerned you can always permit police and firefighter unions.

I agree with Frazz like, I fething hate the Unions.

Mother fethers are like the mafia.

A once noble ideal, its gone totally on its head, and they don't exist now to protect the workers, they exist so that scumbag workers cant get fired, and they now abuse their employers!

Thatcher had the right idea.. stove their filthy heads in!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:So, when you look to hire this private peacekeeper and life saver, presumably you'll factor in cost?

Does cost somehow not matter when we're talking about publicly provided firefighters? If it's all about the benefit, we should assign 3 firefighters to every street corner to maximize response time.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Because of all the dakka users hereabouts, I want you to save all the money you can in doing it.

I'm glad wishing for another user's death isn't against the rules. The OT would certainly be a less interesting place.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Personally don't want competitive pricing to be the deciding factor for the guys being sent into battle with well armed drug cartels or wading into a burning warehouse of chemicals to stop a poisonous cloud descending on my town.

Pricing is competitive whether it's in the public or private sectors. As long as there exists any private sector the public has to compete against it; whether it's for equipment, employees, or any other resources. The only difference is public sector employees are generally unconcerned with the cost. There's no reason to save money - the taxpayers will always* pick up the tab.

* And if someone ever tries to control costs, hold a recall election. The taxpayers will pay for that too.

Frazzled wrote:

My house has volunteer firefighters actually...

I wish you could opt out, sign a waiver so I will never call the police or fire department and not pay as much tax! The firemen in Britain get paid 30k a year for masturbating, going to the gym, and putting a cordon in so they can all watch things burn down.

The Unions said that fire is dangerous, and fighting one is clearly a violation of their human rights.

mattyrm wrote: I agree with Frazz like, I fething hate the Unions.

Mother fethers are like the mafia.

A once noble ideal, its gone totally on its head, and they don't exist now to protect the workers, they exist so that scumbag workers cant get fired, and they now abuse their employers!

Thatcher had the right idea.. stove their filthy heads in!

Hows your economy going there Matty? Made any new well paying jobs since thatcher? Hows your industry going? How's that wealth gap these days? I love how Americans whine about unions when in 40 years virtually every bit of wealth made in this country has gone to the top 10%, people who aren't in unions. Certainly would appear at face value that enforced fair pay is more important than ever. Then again, that koolaid tasted pretty damn good and teachers and firefighters clearly live in opulence while the poor millionaires can't afford to have their taxes go up.

I think he got religion and is in the States now actually.

Soon he'll dsicover the need to atone for his sins and will come to Texas.

Sinners go to Hell.
Real sinners go to Texas.

Frazzled wrote:I think he got religion and is in the States now actually.

Soon he'll dsicover the need to atone for his sins and will come to Texas.

Sinners go to Hell.
Real sinners go to Texas.

Oh, I thought his misses went to England.

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Just like corporate welfare, we can no longer afford this largesse and corruption.

I dunno Frazzled. With corporate welfare, I hear of multi-million dollar bonuses and pensions and vacations to spas, etc. Seems to me cops, fire fighters, grade school teachers, and even your bette noir the DMV employee aren't living it up on taxpayer bucks (or any other bucks for that matter). Methinks the wiener doth protest too much.

A pity, too, because those people deserve it far more than the corporate douchebags who do little more than sit on their asses running their company in to the ground for a few years and then collect their massive executive severance packages and find higher paying jobs somewhere else.

i don't know I got confused. I thought he was in paradise (San Diego) at one point. Then the Queen called about a Falkands something something and he disappeared...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Personally don't want competitive pricing to be the deciding factor for the guys being sent into battle with well armed drug cartels

Personally, I don't want competitive pricing to be the deciding factor for the guys being sent into battle with drug cartels who are overflowing with money and very, very willing to bribe.

Because if the police force becomes mercenary, then that means that they can be bought by the criminals who they are supposed to be catching.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Just like corporate welfare, we can no longer afford this largesse and corruption.

I dunno Frazzled. With corporate welfare, I hear of multi-million dollar bonuses and pensions and vacations to spas, etc. Seems to me cops, fire fighters, grade school teachers, and even your bette noir the DMV employee aren't living it up on taxpayer bucks (or any other bucks for that matter). Methinks the wiener doth protest too much.

A pity, too, because those people deserve it far more than the corporate douchebags who do little more than sit on their asses running their company in to the ground for a few years and then collect their massive executive severance packages and find higher paying jobs somewhere else.

Thats your problem right there. You think people deserve things.
But if they did I would agree wiht you 10,000%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Personally don't want competitive pricing to be the deciding factor for the guys being sent into battle with well armed drug cartels

Personally, I don't want competitive pricing to be the deciding factor for the guys being sent into battle with drug cartels who are overflowing with money and very, very willing to bribe.

Because if the police force becomes mercenary, then that means that they can be bought by the criminals who they are supposed to be catching.

What they're not bought now?

Clearly I'm not a millionaire and as a result don't begrudge ordinary working people (I am one!) better conditions, my point is simply that over here it has gone too far the other way and unions have given public sector workers an excuse to flagrantly take the piss!

I showed you that panorama about teachers here right? 28 teachers fired in 30 years, and an estimated 16,000 bad teahcers in the system?!

Thanks to the unions, teachers can feth the students and not get fired.. I personally know a guy who boned a 16 year old student (legal age here, hence no prosectution) and didnt get fired. He just got moved schools.. and he lives with her now.. she's 18 and he is 33.

What's so awesome about that?

Your like me though Shuma, you polarise everything to make a point. I get it, but you fully understand where I am coming from. I want a harmonic balance between workers rights and employers rights. Not an utter inability to fire anyone in the public sector no matter what they do wrong.

Oh and I was in SD for a bit Frazz aye, we went home to see the family, but were back in Yorkshire now.

Your like me though Shuma, you polarise everything to make a point. I get it, but you fully understand where I am coming from. I want a harmonic balance between workers rights and employers rights. Not an utter inability to fire anyone in the public sector no matter what they do wrong.

Which isn't what the people you are siding with want. It's not what Walker wanted and it isn't what he did. You don't ensure fair pay and a measured working economy by defeating unions, they exist to prevent exactly what has occurred in this country over the last forty years, that being the death of affordable wages and the rise of an oligarchy. That's why we're on such starkly opposite sides. You don't seem to care who you're rubbing elbows with because you feel like taking a stand whereas I'm on an island hating everyone alone. There is certainly graft in the system, but it's hardly what is tanking our economy, it's not even a particularly large drop in the bucket. It's just a bs sideshow so that conservatives can pretend they're doing something to help while giving the keys away to the real villains.

Frazzled wrote:What they're not bought now?

Oddly enough, no. America's police force is pretty loyal to the common person's interest at the moment. If you had ever been to Mexico, you'd know the difference between a good police force and a corrupt one. The police here just want to enforce the law and protect people, for the most part. The police in Mexico... are often working for the drug cartels more than they are the government.

mattyrm wrote: Clearly I'm not a millionaire and as a result don't begrudge ordinary working people (I am one!) better conditions, my point is simply that over here it has gone too far the other way and unions have given public sector workers an excuse to flagrantly take the piss!

I showed you that panorama about teachers here right? 28 teachers fired in 30 years, and an estimated 16,000 bad teahcers in the system?!

Thanks to the unions, teachers can feth the students and not get fired.. I personally know a guy who boned a 16 year old student (legal age here, hence no prosectution) and didnt get fired. He just got moved schools.. and he lives with her now.. she's 18 and he is 33.

What's so awesome about that?

Your like me though Shuma, you polarise everything to make a point. I get it, but you fully understand where I am coming from. I want a harmonic balance between workers rights and employers rights. Not an utter inability to fire anyone in the public sector no matter what they do wrong.

Oh and I was in SD for a bit Frazz aye, we went home to see the family, but were back in Yorkshire now.

So are you on standby for the Olympics? And by that I mean have they carted a dreadnought main gun to a secret location, and have you loaded in the breech with a stilleto in your teeth and a bottle of Scotch in each hadn, ready to be literally fired at the scene.

"We've got Terrorists on the Thames?"
"Fire the Matty Gun!"
BWOOSH.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Your like me though Shuma, you polarise everything to make a point. I get it, but you fully understand where I am coming from. I want a harmonic balance between workers rights and employers rights. Not an utter inability to fire anyone in the public sector no matter what they do wrong.

Which isn't what the people you are siding with want. It's not what Walker wanted and it isn't what he did. That's why we're on such starkly opposite sides. You don't seem to care who you're rubbing elbows with because you feel like taking a stand.

I can see how the lines got blurred here, your talking US politics and I waded in with more regards to the UK and there is a big difference, our conservatives are slightly more left wing than your democrats!

My fault, I shouldn't have opened my trap, I was agreeing with Frazz regards my general sentiment towards unions but basing it off how things work here. I'm ignorant of the facts regarding the issue in the US other than what I have seen on TV shows..and Gov Walker I know next to feth all about as well, I just presumed it would be more or less the same (unions) regards workers rights and how local government basically cant fire even the most inept/criminally negligent staff member.

Don't worry ill shut my fething mouth now.

Manchu wrote:

Firefighter Brian Endicott got an early taste of the pension battle brewing here when a man at the grocery store angrily pointed to the steaks in his cart.

"Who do you think you are, wasting taxpayers' money on a meal like this?" the man yelled at 46-year-old Mr. Endicott, who was shopping for dinner with three other firefighters from San Jose Fire Station No. 1.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304821304577438452821346064.html

Somehow, I think the American people might not be focused on the right problem ...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304821304577438452821346064.html
They forgot to write down the firefighters reply which should have been suitably chastising. San Jose dug their own hole by offering 90% pensions. They did that willingly and not by union pressure. So in my mind, feth the city of San Jose.

mattyrm wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

My house has volunteer firefighters actually...

I wish you could opt out, sign a waiver so I will never call the police or fire department and not pay as much tax! The firemen in Britain get paid 30k a year for masturbating, going to the gym, and putting a cordon in so they can all watch things burn down.

The Unions said that fire is dangerous, and fighting one is clearly a violation of their human rights.

I want to believe you are joking, but have suspicions you may not be.
There ARE places you can opt out of certain services. A couple years ago I visited some family who live in Great Falls, MT. On the 4th of July a house up the street burned down, while the GFFD watched. The area they live in is surrounded by the city, but is unincorporated and they did not pay the dues the FD requires to provide service. It's sort of understandable on one hand and seems so utterly wrong on the other. There are similar situations that I know of in other places.
That said I'm fairly ambivalent about unions. On the one hand they provide a service for the working and middle class and exist to protect thier rights and wages. On the other some unions, especially the public ones, demand more and more when there is nothing to give and abuse the power they have. I'd wager that when the dockworkers for Toyota struck none of you noticed, but if all city services stopped for a day their would be marching in the streets. I'm pro union, I'm even pro public union; but collective bargaining between public unions and the populations they SERVE need to be reasonable and fiscally responsible. The truth is both side have ground to give and often those who are supposed to bargain in the best interest of their municipality fail to make an even token effort.

Public Safety unions operate differently than Public Worker unions, attacking Frazz for saying Government Unions are losers and attempting to link Police and Fire Fighters to the issue is disingenuous at best. The Legislation Walker presented exempted Public Safety Workers who retain collective bargaining rights in Wisconsin with the exception of Capitol and University police. The Unions he was referring to were the ones who protested and cried out for Walkers recall, most notably the AFL-CIO or more correctly the largest Union IN the AFL-CIO: The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Public Safety Unions are a part of the AFL-CIO and largely opposed Walker in the election, but they had nothing to lose. The losers here certainly weren't public safety workers. Should public safety workers ever decide to strike their unions will lose any public sympathy they have if the communities they serve experience crime waves or disasters that those workers are supposed to prevent and mitigate. It is also illegal in many places.

Even with the public unions, many public workers are underpaid.

I mean hell, as notorious as teachers unions are, private school teachers (and professors at private colleges) are STILL paid more for a job that is generally considered easier and more pleasant than public schools/colleges.

Melissia wrote:Even with the public unions, many public workers are underpaid.

I mean hell, as notorious as teachers unions are, private school teachers (and professors at private colleges) are STILL paid more for a job that is generally considered easier and more pleasant than public schools/colleges.

If that were the case they wouldn't be working there. To be logical one would have to assume a basic form of insanity on the part of those being underpaid.

Frazzled wrote:

Melissia wrote:Even with the public unions, many public workers are underpaid.

I mean hell, as notorious as teachers unions are, private school teachers (and professors at private colleges) are STILL paid more for a job that is generally considered easier and more pleasant than public schools/colleges.

If that were the case they wouldn't be working there. To be logical one would have to assume a basic form of insanity on the part of those being underpaid.

That's a brutal oversimplification and you know it.

Frazzled wrote:If that were the case they wouldn't be working there.

It is the case-- public school teachers are paid less than private school teachers both at the grade school and university level..

They're working there. Obviously.

And many of them are even sane! Although the students certainly aren't helping.

Melissia wrote:I mean hell, as notorious as teachers unions are, private school teachers are STILL paid more for a job that is generally considered easier and more pleasant than public schools/colleges.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp

I omitted the part about private colleges from quote, the table doesn't cover that. If you intended to include private vs. public professors in your calculation, let me know and I'll supplement this post.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Melissia wrote:Even with the public unions, many public workers are underpaid.

I mean hell, as notorious as teachers unions are, private school teachers (and professors at private colleges) are STILL paid more for a job that is generally considered easier and more pleasant than public schools/colleges.

If that were the case they wouldn't be working there. To be logical one would have to assume a basic form of insanity on the part of those being underpaid.

That's a brutal oversimplification and you know it.

Of course it is, but its an oversimplified original statement. People work at a position because: 1) they like the salary and benefits; 2) they like the environment including security of a position; 3) there's no comparable position somewhere else that offers better factors.

Its a big reason there's heavy burnout.

And the fact that they're underpaid, overworked, and under-appreciated only makes the burn-out worse.

Melissia wrote:Even with the public unions, many public workers are underpaid.

I mean hell, as notorious as teachers unions are, private school teachers (and professors at private colleges) are STILL paid more for a job that is generally considered easier and more pleasant than public schools/colleges.

Only SOME teachers unions are notorious.

Can we stop talking about police and firefighters, they were not part of the bill that passed, and have retained there colective bargining rights.