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Looks like it's going to be an interesting election year all around. This vote puts Obama on notice.

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/05/12074595-walker-emerges-victorious-in-wisconsin-recall?lite

Its not as significant as you would think. He was the favorite going in, as recalls usually fail (You need your base to come out twice.). That he was up for recall at all was more interesting.

Consider, for instance, that the exit polls for the recall vote show favor for Obama. With Absentees it will get tighter, most likely, but it is something to consider.

I counter with the fact that it is Wisconsin, which exists only to host the best football team evar, give Minnesotans who need booze on Sunday somewhere to go buy it, and forge sweet delicious cheese from the molten spew of the earth. Everything else that happens there is irrelevant - at best.

I can empathize with the booze on Sundays thing.

I cannot fathom why a state as liberal as Minnesota has such silly bible belt booze n' gamblin' (well, okay, I get that the tribes bribe the gak out of people to keep gambling rez only, but comeon) laws. It's silly as hell.

I thought this would be a useful outlier for the big game, but exit polls show Obama has actually picked up support since 2008. So either this state has a mighty strong Bradley effect going on, or man do I just not understand the voters up ins.

I think the failure of the recall has a lot to say about the real place of labour relations and unionism in US politics* but it really doesn't mean anything in terms of Obama's re-election. Statistically speaking, going back to 1972 there is little relationship between having a Republican governor and voting for the Republican presidential candidate (and of course, the same for the Democratic candidate. In fact, in 7 out of 10 elections the Democratic candidate actually did better in the states with Republican governors than in those with Democratic governors, and vice versa for the Republican candidate. Here's the table showing that, from fivethiryeight.com;




I guess, ultimately, people understand that state and federal politics are different, and that they're voting for people with individual strengths and weaknesses, and not just for whatever side of the blue/red divide people like to assume everyone must fit into.



*As in, you can declare war on unions and people will make a lot of noise about it, but some months down the track it won't really resonate that much in electorate. Unionism is even deader than people thought. Hopefully the left will take the sobering lesson from this and move on to fight battles on winnable grounds.

Relapse wrote:Looks like it's going to be an interesting election year all around. This vote puts Obama on notice.

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/05/12074595-walker-emerges-victorious-in-wisconsin-recall?lite

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! Goverment unions poured millions in to punish a governor for daring to buck them and got curb stomped. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Government Unions...losers...is there a connection?
YES!

Calling fire fighters and police losers? Nice.

Mannahnin wrote:Calling fire fighters and police losers? Nice.

Calling public union losers-you betcha.

Calling all those fun filled happy town employees who meader around at the DMV, chewing cud and getting a pension based on their last year of inflated employment at a rate higher than most of the citizens of a state make yearly, you betcha.

Calling the massed bureaucracy that would make a Byzantine emperor cry a bunch of losers, you betcha.

Counting coup on the incestuous government unions voting politicians into office who then give them kick backs in massive benies, who then insure they remain in office thereafter, you betcha.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Oh lookie now New York and cities in California are now puching back.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*This carefully crafted, Shakespearean monograph brought to you by Frazzled, who's vengeful spite for government union employees is restored every time he goes the DMV or tax assessor's office.

^real classy...

Frazzled wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Calling fire fighters and police losers? Nice.

Calling public union losers-you betcha.

Calling all those fun filled happy town employees who meader around at the DMV, chewing cud and getting a pension based on their last year of inflated employment at a rate higher than most of the citizens of a state make yearly, you betcha.

Calling the massed bureaucracy that would make a Byzantine emperor cry a bunch of losers, you betcha.

Counting coup on the incestuous government unions voting politicians into office who then give them kick backs in massive benies, who then insure they remain in office thereafter, you betcha.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Oh lookie now New York and cities in California are now puching back.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*This carefully crafted, Shakespearean monograph brought to you by Frazzled, who's vengeful spite for government union employees is restored every time he goes the DMV or tax assessor's office.

You have such a poor grasp on how Unions actually work it's shocking. Oh wait, it's not because you always made rude and uninformed posts like this.

Clthomps wrote:^real classy...

Yes, yes it is, and from the grandson of one of the founders of the Merchant Marine Union no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Calling fire fighters and police losers? Nice.

Calling public union losers-you betcha.

Calling all those fun filled happy town employees who meader around at the DMV, chewing cud and getting a pension based on their last year of inflated employment at a rate higher than most of the citizens of a state make yearly, you betcha.

Calling the massed bureaucracy that would make a Byzantine emperor cry a bunch of losers, you betcha.

Counting coup on the incestuous government unions voting politicians into office who then give them kick backs in massive benies, who then insure they remain in office thereafter, you betcha.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Oh lookie now New York and cities in California are now puching back.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*This carefully crafted, Shakespearean monograph brought to you by Frazzled, who's vengeful spite for government union employees is restored every time he goes the DMV or tax assessor's office.

You have such a poor grasp on how Unions actually work it's shocking. Oh wait, it's not because you always made rude and uninformed posts like this.

No I'm quite familiar with government unions, thanks. Evidently so are the voters in Wisconsin.

EDIT: Governments unions hear the sounds of silence:
http://news.yahoo.com/california-cities-look-set-pass-pension-reform-052226311.html

dogma wrote:Its not as significant as you would think. He was the favorite going in, as recalls usually fail (You need your base to come out twice.). That he was up for recall at all was more interesting.

According to NPR, he was the first governor to survive a recall election.

Alexzandvar wrote:You have such a poor grasp on how Unions actually work it's shocking. Oh wait, it's not because you always made rude and uninformed posts like this.

I don't think he made any comment about "how Unions actually work." But they're pretty easy to understand.

sebster wrote:Unionism is even deader than people thought. Hopefully the left will take the sobering lesson from this and move on to fight battles on winnable grounds.

Thanks to billions of lobbying dollars over the course of decades, there is basically no popular sense of how important labor institutions are to the commonwealth. The same forces that demolished labor have now turned their sites on the government itself. Unsurprisingly, the first target is the confluence of labor and government. It is pretty well obvious that this issue is not about budget deficits, its not about economic recovery, it's merely political positioning based on a "divide and conquer" premise. Walker's "divide and conquer" rhetoric will send a chill down the spine of anyone with meaningful knowledge of the struggle to unionize. What is going on in this case is politics for the sake of politics, and the people be damned.

Manchu wrote:

sebster wrote:Unionism is even deader than people thought. Hopefully the left will take the sobering lesson from this and move on to fight battles on winnable grounds.

Thanks to billions of lobbying dollars over the course of decades, there is basically no popular sense of how important labor institutions are to the commonwealth. The same forces that demolished labor have now turned their sites on the government itself. Unsurprisingly, the first target is the confluence of labor and government. It is pretty well obvious that this issue is not about budget deficits, its not about economic recovery, it's merely political positioning based on a "divide and conquer" premise. Walker's "divide and conquer" rhetoric will send a chill down the spine of anyone with meaningful knowledge of the struggle to unionize. What is going on in this case is politics for the sake of politics, and the people be damned.

Evidently the actual citizens - the ones who have to pay for government worker-politican collusion and shared legal bribery - disaqgree with you.

pricate unions have a place. Public unions have no place and are the epitomy of everything that is wrong with the government now.

I'll meet you halfway manchu. You get to go after the ones in business and government who started the mortgage mess, and I get to go after the public union / state government benefit timebomb. Agreed?
To quote the immortal bard: break and attack!

Unions are important, not only for union members, but for the middle class in general, as other jobs tend to keep pace with union wages. What's more, having a strong middle class helps all parts of the economy, as more people have money to spend.

Redbeard wrote:Unions are important, not only for union members, but for the middle class in general, as other jobs tend to keep pace with union wages. What's more, having a strong middle class helps all parts of the economy, as more people have money to spend.

No. We're talking government unions here. Thats a massive difference. Government union wages and benefits now outpace their private counterparts. Their retirement packages are off the scale in comparison to anyone else and are absolute budget killers on a level beyond mortal man.

Frazzled wrote:I'll meet you halfway manchu. You get to go after the ones in business and government who started the mortgage mess, and I get to go after the public union / state government benefit timebomb.

I get to take on the most powerful people on Earth while you tilt at windmills? That doesn't seem fair.


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Frazzled wrote:Government union wages and benefits now outpace their private counterparts. Their retirement packages are off the scale in comparison to anyone else and are absolute budget killers on a level beyond mortal man.

It seems to me that workers protected by "public" unions have better wages and benefits than those protected by "private" ones because people like Walker have already broken the back of the "private" ones. That's why Walker is now going after the "public" ones.

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'll meet you halfway manchu. You get to go after the ones in business and government who started the mortgage mess, and I get to go after the public union / state government benefit timebomb.

I get to take on the most powerful people on Earth while you tilt at windmills? That doesn't seem fair.

This is true. you have a chance against powerful people. I 've never seen a windmill taken out in a joust yet.

Having had to listen to those Recall Walker people for the last year, i am very glad to see that he won both for my political standings and because I dont feel that recall elections should be allowed.

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'll meet you halfway manchu. You get to go after the ones in business and government who started the mortgage mess, and I get to go after the public union / state government benefit timebomb.

I get to take on the most powerful people on Earth while you tilt at windmills? That doesn't seem fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Government union wages and benefits now outpace their private counterparts. Their retirement packages are off the scale in comparison to anyone else and are absolute budget killers on a level beyond mortal man.

It seems to me that workers protected by "public" unions have better wages and benefits than those protected by "private" ones because people like Walker have already broken the back of the "private" ones. That's why Walker is now going after the "public" ones.

The difference of course is that the public unions suck off the taxpayers, and the people in charge of their salary are elected and given camapgin contributions by...them. Thats the classic definition of a kickback to a special interest. just like corporate welfare, we can no longer afford this largesse and corruption.

Frazzled wrote:You have a chance against powerful people.

Almost four years after Lehman collapsed, I think we can say that's not true. Or rather, what chance we had was squandered by the President and congressional Democrats.

Frazzled wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Unions are important, not only for union members, but for the middle class in general, as other jobs tend to keep pace with union wages. What's more, having a strong middle class helps all parts of the economy, as more people have money to spend.

No. We're talking government unions here. Thats a massive difference. Government union wages and benefits now outpace their private counterparts. Their retirement packages are off the scale in comparison to anyone else and are absolute budget killers on a level beyond mortal man.

Their private counterparts have been falling for decades, American private industry is now predominantly low wage ever since automation killed off high pay low skill manufacturing. The basis of your opinions is wildly off (again). Sure, government union benefits now outpace private, but that's because private benefits are in a race to the bottom as every mom and pop gets to start flipping burgers.

Frazzled wrote:Just like corporate welfare, we can no longer afford this largesse and corruption.

I dunno Frazzled. With corporate welfare, I hear of multi-million dollar bonuses and pensions and vacations to spas, etc. Seems to me cops, fire fighters, grade school teachers, and even your bette noir the DMV employee aren't living it up on taxpayer bucks (or any other bucks for that matter). Methinks the wiener doth protest too much.

Frazzled wrote:

Relapse wrote:Looks like it's going to be an interesting election year all around. This vote puts Obama on notice.

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/05/12074595-walker-emerges-victorious-in-wisconsin-recall?lite

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! Goverment unions poured millions in to punish a governor for daring to buck them and got curb stomped. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Government Unions...losers...is there a connection?
YES!

They poured in millions and yet their competition due to gakky Wisconsin election laws poured in SEVEN TIMES AS MUCH MONEY. The election was a forgone conclusion given how corrupt it was.

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You have a chance against powerful people.

Almost four years after Lehman collapsed, I think we can say that's not true. Or rather, what chance we had was squandered by the President and congressional Democrats.

Yep. Of course it was, they have to protect their own. Follow the trail and it goes back to a lot of Democrats and Republicans in high places, government mandated policy, lenders who were first pushed then got greedy, entire semi government agencies papering over what the real credit risk was, and bond holders willingly averting their eyes to the law of risk/reward.

Having said that, that aint whats holding down the global ecoomies now and what knocked Europe back into recession. But thats a separate thread.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Just like corporate welfare, we can no longer afford this largesse and corruption.

I dunno Frazzled. With corporate welfare, I hear of multi-million dollar bonuses and pensions and vacations to spas, etc. Seems to me cops, fire fighters, grade school teachers, and even your bette noir the DMV employee aren't living it up on taxpayer bucks (or any other bucks for that matter). Methinks the wiener doth protest too much.

You must have missed the GSA fiasco and firefighters retiring on $300,000 a year. Hey I respect that and would get it if I could. but the taxpayer can't afford it.
Govenrment unions are a relatively new phenomena in the US, an experiment that has failed.

You must have missed the GSA fiasco and firefighters retiring on $300,000 a year. Hey I respect that and would get it if I could. but the taxpayer can't afford it.
Govenrment unions are a relatively new phenomena in the US, an experiment that has failed.

Is that in a geological scale? Like, they aren't millions of years old? They don't seem that new from where I'm perched.

Firefighter Brian Endicott got an early taste of the pension battle brewing here when a man at the grocery store angrily pointed to the steaks in his cart.

"Who do you think you are, wasting taxpayers' money on a meal like this?" the man yelled at 46-year-old Mr. Endicott, who was shopping for dinner with three other firefighters from San Jose Fire Station No. 1.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304821304577438452821346064.html

Somehow, I think the American people might not be focused on the right problem ...

Frazzled wrote:
You must have missed the GSA fiasco and firefighters retiring on $300,000 a year. Hey I respect that and would get it if I could. but the taxpayer can't afford it.

How much can the taxpayer afford for the man who will run into his burning house to save him, his family, and his wiener dogs?

If the multi-million dollar bonuses paid out by the banks were taxed at a fair rate, the firefighter might be able to afford a reasonable retirement.