Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So you have to buy talent to make music?

daedalus wrote:Dubstep, at least the stuff I've heard, usually sounds like someone fethed the beat on a trance song. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff. Elucidate me.

some of my favourite dubstep stuff atm.

TheAngrySquig wrote:So you have to buy talent to make music?

No, but it sure helsp. Plus, music has actual meaning and sound. Lyrics that can sooth or hurt or touch you in a way that makes you take notice. Dubstep is a bunch of rebelious teens trying to get a buzz and an excuse to drink.

TheAngrySquig wrote:So you have to buy talent to make music?

To a certain extent, yes. Strings tied across a shoebox doesn't really sound quite like a $1000 guitar, and you can only make the guitar sound so good if you don't understand the basic tenets of musical theory, which is where the lessons come in to play.

Castiel wrote:That sounds really good, Goliath. How was it performed, is it all computeried?

The album was created electronically, using samples and whatnot, but live is performed using a small army of musicians.



This is a different song from the same album being performed live.

On a similar note, how do people feel about bands like pendulum?
As in, the albums are largely computerised, but live they perform with instruments?
I use pendulum as the example because for their live performances Rob Swire (the vocalist) uses this:
Which plays like a guitar, but has samples attached to each "note" rather than playing guitar sounds, and so can be used as a variety of instruments depending on the song.
(the photo is actually the ztar used by the bassist from Linkin Park)

dæl wrote:

daedalus wrote:Dubstep, at least the stuff I've heard, usually sounds like someone fethed the beat on a trance song. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff. Elucidate me.

some of my favourite dubstep stuff atm.

Spoiler:

I just listened to the Fear. It's... less obnoxious than some of the other stuff I've heard. Parts of it actually reminded me of NIN, especially some of Reznor's later work. I will have to listen to more later.

@ Goliath: I would probably say that it wasn't electronic then. It might have been written on a program, but that doesn't make it electronic music. However, it is in that zone where you can't really say one way or the other.

I like good music.

I listen to music that makes the mood, for example, on a train going through countryside i'll put on wilds forlorn, where as cycling to work on my bycycle will result in death metal bieng played, as long as the song fits the mood i'll listen to it.

What I cannot stand is overhyped music. This includes most radio music and a LOT of rock music.

Moan time.
There seems to be a huge resurgent of old gits who are wanting to live through their youth once more and thus belive all music except cheesy rock (im talking bon jovi, def leppard, alic cooper, deep purple stuff here) is rubbish.

This seems to have come to the fore on planet rock, depressingly however, becuase the old gits like to wallow in self pity and planet rock 90% of the time plays old stuff, it is strangling new talent and not letting it flourish, whoch is the point of a radio station. Radio such as planet rock can do so much more than indulge mid life crisis's but it doesn't it just overyhypes out of date cheesy rock music.

and DO NOT qoute airbourne as a brand new rock band, they are just AC/DC clones.

For me liking music is first visceral, then intellectual. I hear a song, I get one of three reactions:
1. Like it
2. Hate it
3. a sliding scale of "meh"

A common feature of the music I like is the musicianship of the band/artist. If they can play well, I like them (usually). Another thing that I look for is what I call "musicality." For me this has to do with song structure, arrangement, the mix, the music itself... a long list. Sincerity plays a huge part for me as well. Is the artist being sincere with themselves? Are they being sincere to the audience? If a band actually "feels" the music I am more likely to "feel" it as well. An example: one of my favorite bands is Nickle Creek. Allison Krauss produced their first album, and she asked them if they were going to do a love song. Their response was "No, we have never been in love." As they were teenagers at the time I always thought that this showed a remarkable amount of maturity.

Now the big caveat...

The only common feature of the music I like, the only unifying factor... is I Like It.

Music is subjective. I love Kraftwerk, Orbital, and Daft Punk. I despise dubstep with every fiber of my body. Most country I find sappy and twangy. Bluegrass music never fails to cheer me up, and I could listen to Junior Brown all day long. Free jazz gives me a headache, Ella Fitzgerald scatting is the soundtrack to heaven. And on and on...

Goliath wrote:
On a similar note, how do people feel about bands like pendulum?

Which pendulum? The early, good pendulum, or the commercialised, bad pendulum? I sound like a hipster but in this case it's entirely valid.

daedalus wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So you have to buy talent to make music?

To a certain extent, yes. Strings tied across a shoebox doesn't really sound quite like a $1000 guitar, and you can only make the guitar sound so good if you don't understand the basic tenets of musical theory, which is where the lessons come in to play.

And if you can get a 1000 dollar guitar sound for free and then apply it to a song that actually sounds good isn't that the best case scenario? And if there happens to be a good beat, then isn't that just a peach?

treadhead1944 wrote:*snip*

This, I agree with almost all of this.

dæl wrote:

Goliath wrote:
On a similar note, how do people feel about bands like pendulum?

Which pendulum? The early, good pendulum, or the commercialised, bad pendulum? I sound like a hipster but in this case it's entirely valid.

In this case I think I was talking about the rock-band pendulum, so the latter, as I'm not sure how they used to do their live sets.

Goliath wrote:In this case I think I was talking about the rock-band pendulum, so the latter, as I'm not sure how they used to do their live sets.

I think they still played it live.

I like most real instrument based music however 99% of Electronica of any genre is talentless garbage (and dubstep is the worse offender here) Some older Hip hop is sorta ok and I really like aussie Hip Hop.

I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

Mm. For me, my main reasons for disliking country and rap are the subject matter more than the style.

And I still don't know what the hell Dubstep is supposed to be.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

1. Dubstep has been around for donkey years It was garbage then and it is garbage now.
2. ALL electronica requires very little talent to make however Dubstep is even more devoid of skill and even more formulaic

Come on dare me to make a dubstep track and I will knock that gak out in a few hours..However you must write play and record a song written on a real instrument (with some proof) and post that as well.

God I hate douche bags on a Macs playing around with cake walk thinking the qualify as musicians because the worked out how to copy and paste some a bass loop over a drum track.

Actually electronic music can be quite complex, and like all music, takes a lot of talent to do competent composition of the song.

I'm not saying dubstep is good (I still have no clue what it's supposed to be... must be a brit pop thing) or anything, just that ANY music takes talent in order to have good composition-- knowing when is too much, when is too little, when to have lyrics, when certain parts of the music should pick up and slow down, etc.

Jubear wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

1. Dubstep has been around for donkey years It was garbage then and it is garbage now.
2. ALL electronica requires very little talent to make however Dubstep is even more devoid of skill and even more formulaic

Come on dare me to make a dubstep track and I will knock that gak out in a few hours..However you must write play and record a song written on a real instrument (with some proof) and post that as well.

God I hate douche bags on a Macs playing around with cake walk thinking the qualify as musicians because the worked out how to copy and paste some a bass loop over a drum track.

Only problem is I can't play guitar or any instrument. But thats the great thing about dubstep, you can learn how to make it for next to no money and a few hours of playing. I have plenty of friends who can and do make really good electronica music, and I have made a few songs of my own. I also have friends who play progressive rock music, and if I didn't have to support them I would rather sit at home then go to their concerts.

God I hate douche bags who are jealous of people that can afford Macs and walk around with a guitar, a dumb beard, too long hair, a ridiculous hat and think that they're above everyone because they're parents spent money on getting them guitar lessons when they were ten and wanted to be like the rockstars in the movies

Jubear wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

1. Dubstep has been around for donkey years It was garbage then and it is garbage now.
2. ALL electronica requires very little talent to make however Dubstep is even more devoid of skill and even more formulaic

Come on dare me to make a dubstep track and I will knock that gak out in a few hours..However you must write play and record a song written on a real instrument (with some proof) and post that as well.

God I hate douche bags on a Macs playing around with cake walk thinking the qualify as musicians because the worked out how to copy and paste some a bass loop over a drum track.

If by donkeys years you mean a decade then yes it has. As someone who lived in Bristol (one of the homes of early dubstep) during the early '00s (the time of it's formation) it will always hold a small place in my heart (kind of helps I have an old friend who is becoming quite famous in the scene). It's is much harder to build a good electronic track than it is to make and record a song written on real instruments. Making a 30 second loop is easy as gak, I'll give you that, but you try and make something as intricate as the ebola tune I posted earlier, then come back to me.

And yeah go on then, I dare you.

Jubear wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

1. Dubstep has been around for donkey years It was garbage then and it is garbage now.
2. ALL electronica requires very little talent to make however Dubstep is even more devoid of skill and even more formulaic

Come on dare me to make a dubstep track and I will knock that gak out in a few hours..However you must write play and record a song written on a real instrument (with some proof) and post that as well.

God I hate douche bags on a Macs playing around with cake walk thinking the qualify as musicians because the worked out how to copy and paste some a bass loop over a drum track.

Did you even fething look at any of the fething videos that I put on here?







In regards to your ridiculous challenge, no one one here is saying that "real" music is easy, they're saying that electronic music isn't
Challenging someone to learn an instrument, write some music and then perform it, in return for you doing something that you say is incredibly easy is both asinine and unfair.

Damn, I've been on here since 2009 and this is the first time I've ever sworn on here, thats how idiotic your comment was.

Right, I think I've calmed down now.

Melissia wrote:Actually electronic music can be quite complex, and like all music, takes a lot of talent to do competent composition of the song.

I'm not saying dubstep is good (I still have no clue what it's supposed to be... must be a brit pop thing) or anything, just that ANY music takes talent in order to have good composition-- knowing when is too much, when is too little, when to have lyrics, when certain parts of the music should pick up and slow down, etc.

Anyone with a good knowledge of musical theory can do those things. One of the biggest misconceptions about music is how it requires some innate talent to compose a song, this is not true at all. What notes and chords work together is all explained with musical theory. Thats why jam bands can actauly just "make it up one the fly" because once they know what the key is and they know what progression they are using they can just follow the rules. Now performing well is another thing entirely.

@Goliath

Flim - what a song, what an album.

As to the challenge, I can play an instrument anyway, so I'll go for it.

Those songs sound like some half-assed game music from a low to no budget indie game that was sold on Steam for five bucks and regularly goes on sale for two, but nobody still buys it.

Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

dæl wrote:

Jubear wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

1. Dubstep has been around for donkey years It was garbage then and it is garbage now.
2. ALL electronica requires very little talent to make however Dubstep is even more devoid of skill and even more formulaic

Come on dare me to make a dubstep track and I will knock that gak out in a few hours..However you must write play and record a song written on a real instrument (with some proof) and post that as well.

God I hate douche bags on a Macs playing around with cake walk thinking the qualify as musicians because the worked out how to copy and paste some a bass loop over a drum track.

If by donkeys years you mean a decade then yes it has. As someone who lived in Bristol (one of the homes of early dubstep) during the early '00s (the time of it's formation) it will always hold a small place in my heart (kind of helps I have an old friend who is becoming quite famous in the scene). It's is much harder to build a good electronic track than it is to make and record a song written on real instruments. Making a 30 second loop is easy as gak, I'll give you that, but you try and make something as intricate as the ebola tune I posted earlier, then come back to me.

And yeah go on then, I dare you.

Cool are you going to compose a song on a real instrument the perform it and record it and post it?

Jubear wrote:Anyone with a good knowledge of musical theory can do those things.

Then why do so few bands actually understand it? Is a "good knowledge of musical theory" that rare?

Jubear wrote:
Cool are you going to compose a song on a real instrument the perform it and record it and post it?

Yeah, why not, haven't written anything in years so I can't guarantee it will be amazing, and you'll have to give me until tomorrow (it's quarter to one, and the neighbours might not like me playing at this time). But yeah, lets do this.

Goliath wrote:

Jubear wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that anyone who says dubstep takes no talent is either ignorant, or hasn't tried to make it. I've explained it in a way I felt was clear, by now I just have to assume that people who disagree are either going off popular opinion, or are just ignorant

1. Dubstep has been around for donkey years It was garbage then and it is garbage now.
2. ALL electronica requires very little talent to make however Dubstep is even more devoid of skill and even more formulaic

Come on dare me to make a dubstep track and I will knock that gak out in a few hours..However you must write play and record a song written on a real instrument (with some proof) and post that as well.

God I hate douche bags on a Macs playing around with cake walk thinking the qualify as musicians because the worked out how to copy and paste some a bass loop over a drum track.

Did you even fething look at any of the fething videos that I put on here?

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In regards to your ridiculous challenge, no one one here is saying that "real" music is easy, they're saying that electronic music isn't
Challenging someone to learn an instrument, write some music and then perform it, in return for you doing something that you say is incredibly easy is both asinine and unfair.

Damn, I've been on here since 2009 and this is the first time I've ever sworn on here, thats how idiotic your comment was.

Right, I think I've calmed down now.

That aphex twin song is just a keys sample over a trip hop beat with the occasionally extra bit of kick drum and snare copy and pasted into the loop....And for the record I never said that real music is easy I just said that elctronica is by and large talentless dribble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dæl wrote:

Jubear wrote:
Cool are you going to compose a song on a real instrument the perform it and record it and post it?

Yeah, why not, haven't written anything in years so I can't guarantee it will be amazing, and you'll have to give me until tomorrow (it's quarter to one, and the neighbours might not like me playing at this time). But yeah, lets do this.

feth yeah lets do this

dæl wrote:@Goliath

Flim - what a song, what an album.

As to the challenge, I can play an instrument anyway, so I'll go for it.

I would but I sold my clarinet, and I can't play my brother's guitar for the life of me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jubear wrote:real instrument

You keep using those words.
What do you judge to be a "real" instrument?
One that isn't electronic?
One that requires "skill" to play?
One that Jubear likes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jubear wrote:That aphex twin song is just a keys sample over a trip hop beat with the occasionally extra bit of kick drum and snare copy and pasted into the loop....And for the record I never said that real music is easy I just said that elctronica is by and large talentless dribble.

No-one said that real music was easy. The way your challenge was posed made you look like you were saying that people arguing for electronic music were arguing that "real" music was easy.