The Satan Conundrum-Where the Bible Went Wrong (again...)

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**Vitruvian XVII**

Why is santa so close to satan.....

**Squigsquasher**

Monster Rain wrote:Ah, the point where the troll thread blows up in the OP's face.

Magic.

Hang on. If I wanted to troll I would try much harder than that.

I've been thinking about this specific issue since I was 7.

I didn't even know what trolling was back then.

**Hordini**

Vitruvian XVII wrote:To be fair, its the most sane thing in this thread so far

I know, the suggestion that someone actually read a text before criticizing it is mind-bogglingly insane.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Squigsquasher wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Ah, the point where the troll thread blows up in the OP's face.

Magic.

Hang on. If I wanted to troll I would try much harder than that.

I've been thinking about this specific issue since I was 7.

I didn't even know what trolling was back then.

If you've been thinking about this since you were 7 why haven't you read the text which would tell you your assumptions were incorrect,

obvious troll is obvious

**A Town Called Malus**

Squigsquasher wrote:Satan, Lucifer, Old Nick, The Beast, whatever you want to call him. He has been a driving force in the narrative of Judaism, Christianity and Islam for thousands of years.

But hold on, there's a flaw.

Satan is supposedly the embodiment of evil, and rules Hell. Supposedly, sinners go to Hell and are punished. But surely, if Satan was so evil, then he would be congratulating sinners for their behaviour and rewarding them with indulgences and a place in the daemonic legions, so that he may one day rise up against God and finally put an end to his incompetence? This draws me to 3 possible conclusions:

A: Satan is evil, and rewards evil, as mentioned above.
B: Satan feels regret for his treachery and punishes evil, along with himself.
C: Satan is made up (my money is on this one).

Thoughts?

D: Satan is pissed off that humans got more from god than Angels did and sought to overthrow God so that he could rule over mankind as he thought fit.

He hates us all so he doesn't care about whether we did right or wrong, he wants to make us all suffer.

**Hordini**

Squigsquasher wrote:I haven't read the not particularly good book itself, but I have read extracts. Twas a while ago, and I couldn't quote anything, but I got the gyst of it.

Plus, depends which Bible we are talking about. It has been translated, retranslated, mistranslated and deliberately edited so many times that even if the events described were real it is an unreliable record of said events, unless you can find me the original Bible.

I guess you didn't get the gist of the Satan and Hell parts. I recommend that you peruse them for a bit. It won't take long, there aren't that many of them.

The translation part is the fun part. You can consult a variety of different translations from different periods if you like. You can even get access to the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. The information is out there, if you choose to seek it out.

**Squigsquasher**

When I was very, very young I tried reading the Bible.

All I thought was "Why did Jesus want to run pigs off a cliff? The git! Poor pigs."

The rest was gibberish.

**Perkustin**

The description of Satan in Dante Aligheri's 'Divine Comedy' is fairly accurate to the bible, or at least a decent intepretation.

Look it up.

**Hordini**

Squigsquasher wrote:When I was very, very young I tried reading the Bible.

All I thought was "Why did Jesus want to run pigs off a cliff? The git! Poor pigs."

The rest was gibberish.

Now that you're a bit older, you might give it another try.

Even looking at it from a purely literary, non-religious perspective, you can get a whole lot more out of it than just a bunch of "gibberish."

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Hordini wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:I haven't read the not particularly good book itself, but I have read extracts. Twas a while ago, and I couldn't quote anything, but I got the gyst of it.

Plus, depends which Bible we are talking about. It has been translated, retranslated, mistranslated and deliberately edited so many times that even if the events described were real it is an unreliable record of said events, unless you can find me the original Bible.

I guess you didn't get the gist of the Satan and Hell parts. I recommend that you peruse them for a bit. It won't take long, there aren't that many of them.

The translation part is the fun part. You can consult a variety of different translations from different periods if you like. You can even get access to the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. The information is out there, if you choose to seek it out.

exactly, the only two books from the 66 you need to read on the subject are revelations and Job

**Vitruvian XVII**

Santa has so many presents to make, so he has to capture all the souls that god refuses to put to work in his factory.

Thats why he gives kids ipads to make them turn on their parents so he gets more workers when they die.

**Squigsquasher**

I do actually know about the Dante description of Satan, however I don't count it as it wasn't "official". Looks a very interesting read though, and I will read it.

@Hordini, fair enough. Over the holidays I will try and get a copy of the Bible (or 2) and read the whole thing. I can't say I'm going to like what I see though.

**Hordini**

Squigsquasher wrote:I do actually know about the Dante description of Satan, however I don't count it as it wasn't "official". Looks a very interesting read though, and I will read it.

@Hordini, fair enough. Over the holidays I will try and get a copy of the Bible (or 2) and read the whole thing. I can't say I'm going to like what I see though.

I'm not saying you have to like it.

Just that it's worth a read, especially if you want to consider it critically.

**Squigsquasher**

Ok, and thank you, because I probably won't like it, so I'm glad to know there's no obligation.

**Hordini**

Squigsquasher wrote:Ok, and thank you, because I probably won't like it, so I'm glad to know there's no obligation.

There can be a lot of value in reading books you don't particularly like. I've gotten a lot out of some books that I didn't necessarily like, enjoy, or agree with. I've also enjoyed books as an adult that I would have thought were horrifically boring as a kid. Just try to approach it with an open mind in order to more easily draw your own conclusions, that would be my biggest recommendation.

**LordofHats**

Squigsquasher wrote:Plus, depends which Bible we are talking about. It has been translated, retranslated, mistranslated and deliberately edited so many times that even if the events described were real it is an unreliable record of said events, unless you can find me the original Bible.

The errors tend not to be that bad. The wording/context for 85-95% of the books are universal across all translations since the 1st Century AD. Blatant errors typically come from the Byzantine texts which had numerous translation errors but haven't been used for anything other than NES and NKJ since the 19th century.

Arguments that the Bible is poorly translated are crap and they always have been. Most of the sections where known glaring errors exist aren't even important. The words are generally accurate. Its the meanings people spend all their time bickering over.

**Ahtman**

If it weren't for Satan we wouldn't have Castlevania.

**d-usa**

I already met my quota for religious arguments this week.

**dæl**

Here's a point maybe if after Lilith got cast out eden for asking adam if she could go on top, and then after she shacked up with Satan and they had all those daemon children, maybe God should have left them be, they reckon that parenthood chills people out. Satan could have got into the whole domestic bliss thing. But no God comes along and steals the children, and now Satan ain't a happy camper and has to be all angry and that and its all unnecessary. Give Satan back his kids, that's what I say.

**LordofHats**

Lilith never got with Satan, she got with Samael, who some have argued is Satan but there's no textual evidence for a connection between the two.

That Lilith is even relevant is debated, as there are no primary sources whose accuracy hasn't been called into questions.

**Squigsquasher**

Right, I'm stealing that idea for a film.

Incidentally, who is Lillith?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Samael?

I have heard of him, but only in Darksiders, which was inspired by the Book of Revelations I suppose...

**LordofHats**

Squigsquasher wrote:Incidentally, who is Lillith?

Supposedly:

Originally a demon of Babylonian or Akkadian mythology who was adopted into the later Jewish pre-Tulmudic myth. She was Adam's first wife, but refused to lay beneath him and was subsequently cast out of Eden and replaced with Eve. Later stories have connected her to Samael, an angel of death who may or may not have rebelled against god.

As I said above, her relevance is in question. No primary sources can verify if Lilith is anything more than a translation error.

Samael and Liltith are not featured in the Bible (they're from Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism). And if your using Darksiders as your source, we might as well stop talking now, cause it has nothing to do with Revelation.

**Squigsquasher**

I'm not using Darksiders as a reference point, just saying I remember him from it. Heck, I may have not read the Bible, but I'm not using a (admittedly awesome) videogame as a reference. Just tbought it was worth mentioning.

**Coolyo294**

LordofHats wrote:Lilith never got with Satan, she got with Samael, who some have argued is Satan but there's no textual evidence for a connection between the two.

That Lilith is even relevant is debated, as there are no primary sources whose accuracy hasn't been called into questions.

Why was a Dark Eldar Succubus getting with the Master of the Ravenwing?

**Bromsy**

I love White Wolf's interpretation of Lucifer from the Demon line.

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Lucifer

**LordofHats**

idk, Why are the leaders of the Dark Angels named after a Demon, two angels of death, and a prophet

You'd think they'd all be named after angels.

**Squigsquasher**

Who cares, it's awesome!

Anyway, I have been thoroughly undone, congratulations, now I think we can let this thread die.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

LordofHats wrote:idk, Why are the leaders of the Dark Angels named after a Demon, two angels of death, and a prophet You'd think they'd all be named after angels.

Demons being fallen angels

**LordofHats**

Which is an assumption arising from the idea that Satan is a fallen angel, which also has little textual evidence to back it up (though there is some). EDIT: It's actually interesting, as the idea that Satan was once an angel is actually a Muslim belief adopted by Christians just before or during the Crusades.

**dæl**

LordofHats wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:Incidentally, who is Lillith?

Supposedly:

Originally a demon of Babylonian or Akkadian mythology who was adopted into the later Jewish pre-Tulmudic myth. She was Adam's first wife, but refused to lay beneath him and was subsequently cast out of Eden and replaced with Eve. Later stories have connected her to Samael, an angel of death who may or may not have rebelled against god.

As I said above, her relevance is in question. No primary sources can verify if Lilith is anything more than a translation error.

Samael and Liltith are not featured in the Bible (they're from Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism). And if your using Darksiders as your source, we might as well stop talking now, cause it has nothing to do with Revelation.

She's also used as a bogeyman in Jewish folklore to scare children, had her children stolen and so steals other peoples, if you're naughty Lilith comes and steals you.

Didn't know it was Samael she shacked up with, but Samael rebelling against God is interesting. Where can I find all the cool stories about these crazy cats. The Greeks are a great soap opera but i'd imagine this lot might be even better.