Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As an aside-- the original Satan ("ha-Satan") in the Jewish holy book was not an evil guy, he was basically god's "devil's advocate" or adversary, and god's prosecutor of sorts. He is charged by god to tempt humans and come back to god to report those who go against god's decrees.

Interesting. Once again Melissia you educate and inform me.

You're not way off as many people associate Samael and Satan as being one and the same, even though the only connection is that the word Satan means 'accuser' and Samael was an accuser of men. But, seeing as Samael seems to be in god's service in most lore, its unlikely he's Satan as in the Devil. EDIT: See Melissa's post as well. The Accuser is featured prominently in Job, and is often translated in some texts as Satan, resulting in confusion even though they're different entities.

See if you can get a book on Kaballah. It'll cover a lot of this stuff. Do take what you read with grains of salt though. There are a lot of quacks in this field of study who literally make it up as they go or resort to huge logical leaps.

LordofHats wrote:See Melissa's post as well. The Accuser is featured prominently in Job, and is often translated in some texts as Satan

"Ha-Satan", to be specific; literally, "the opposer", or "the adversary". Christian religious beliefs changed "Ha-Satan, which means the Opposer" to "Satan, who is the Devil".

I was given to believe the Jewish God didn't need an evil entity as he often did unsavoury things himself, but people accepted it because "god moves in mysterious ways," and had a greater plan. Rather than the Christian, God is Good, no evil came from him, but from man and the fallen angel.

Jewish religion has very little about God's nature, the after live, or evil forces. To them evil was not doing what God told them to do, and their religion was heavily focused on the Law. In the classical style of Mesopotamian religions, Yehweh was pretty cool when you did what you were supposed to do, but not all that happy when you didn't. You'll notice most Old Testament texts are about people doing what God says, what happens when they don't, and talking about returning to the proper way and what not (along with lots of Legal code).

Christians changed this dynamic, adopting at some point that there was an evil anti-godly force that tempted men and was the primary source of evil. While God may at times appear cold to us, he really does care. Christians are a lot less focused on Law, a much more focused on faith than their Jewish counterparts. Likewise, this is very apparent in New Testament texts.

I thought god made satan so he'd have a poker buddy. Its no fun gambling with angels, they can't bluff

sirlynchmob wrote:I thought god made satan so he'd have a poker buddy. Its no fun gambling with angels, they can't bluff

Seeing as Satan was originally an angel, I put it to you that angels can indeed bluff. It's just that winning more than the acceptable amount of rounds against God gets you kicked out.

I might be wrong cos I've read more Quran than bible since I hit 20, but I don't think half of that's in the bible mate.

You know, all the cool gak about placing sinners into the demonic legions as officers and kicking Gods ass in a big war is from books like Paradise Lost, and all the Hollywood gak like Constantine and Spawn.

I'm pretty sure the bible version is like the rest of the bible, boring as feth.

I think the whole christian mythology is bs, it's a collection of various pagan beliefs from many cultures. Many of the saints were local heroes of legends, many of the demons were old gods.

Its a bit cheesy in parts but does have some really interesting history.

Everyone should give it a watch.

mondo80 wrote:I think the whole christian mythology is bs, it's a collection of various pagan beliefs from many cultures.

Connections between primordial Judaism and the religions of Mesopotamia (namely the Akkadians, Babylonians, and the Pre-Semetic cultures) are well known. Hell, you can see the Jews were once Henotheistic in Genesis. The effect of Zorastrianism on Judaism is well documented and studied as well.

But the fact that religions evolve over time isn't really proof against them. Hinduism today is radically different from Hinduism 500 years ago, let alone 1000 or 2000. Compared to them, Judaism, Islam and Christianity and remained remarkably consistent. EDIT: From about the Crusades onwards, we don't really see that much change in the basics of Christian cosmology.

Many of the saints were local heroes of legends,

The saints aren't in the Bible. Well some of them are, but they aren't called saints. That's a Catholic thing, and arguably a hold over from Roman paganism given how they're venerated by some Catholic practices. It was one of Martin Luther's complaints with the church.

many of the demons were old gods.

Some of them yes. Baal most remarkably (despite there literally being dozens of gods by that name in Mesopotamian history). EDIT: And that ignores that demons aren't even a Christian idea (the Bible doesn't even talk that much about demons, and very few are named). They're a very old Mesopotamian idea.

http://www.jimwallman.org.uk/wargame/war%20in%20hell.pdf

Ever read "The Brothers Karamazov?"

Hmph

Squigsquasher wrote:Satan, Lucifer, Old Nick, The Beast, whatever you want to call him. He has been a driving force in the narrative of Judaism, Christianity and Islam for thousands of years.

But hold on, there's a flaw.

Satan is supposedly the embodiment of evil, and rules Hell. Supposedly, sinners go to Hell and are punished. But surely, if Satan was so evil, then he would be congratulating sinners for their behaviour and rewarding them with indulgences and a place in the daemonic legions, so that he may one day rise up against God and finally put an end to his incompetence? This draws me to 3 possible conclusions:

A: Satan is evil, and rewards evil, as mentioned above.
B: Satan feels regret for his treachery and punishes evil, along with himself.
C: Satan is made up (my money is on this one).

Thoughts?

Your first two conclusions are bullocks. You are forming them out of assumptions that you 'surely' believe to be true, but you provide nothing to back it up, because it does not exist. That's a big flaw in your reasoning.

First, satan is the embodiment of evil. In hell, evil rewards are pain, exhaustion, slavery, sickness, torture, and death. Not these indulgences you speak of. Any indulgent rewards were taken by fools during life on earth, and quickly take away again after death. That is why it is called 'hell'.

Second, if satan truely felt regret for his treachery, he would not be evil, and would not be in hell. He feels no remorse or regret for his evil deeds. Regreat for his treachery? Where are you getting this bull?

Your third conclusions is entirely valid, however.

In the Bible isnt satan as we know him very different? ISnt most of the satan we think of comes from other places?

Yes, most of what is thought about Satan in Christian culture is not from the bible.

Meh, To Reign in Hell is how it really went down. All this other stuff is just a bunch of fiction.

Most of the current lore about Satan and Demons comes to use special thanks to the Greeks (look up Daemon, the word from which Demon is derived) with a mix of traditional pagan evil spirits and an influx of some Muslim ideas about the devil during the Crusades.

Squigsquasher wrote:Satan, Lucifer, Old Nick, The Beast, whatever you want to call him. He has been a driving force in the narrative of Judaism, Christianity and Islam for thousands of years.

But hold on, there's a flaw.

Satan is supposedly the embodiment of evil, and rules Hell. Supposedly, sinners go to Hell and are punished. But surely, if Satan was so evil, then he would be congratulating sinners for their behaviour and rewarding them with indulgences and a place in the daemonic legions, so that he may one day rise up against God and finally put an end to his incompetence? This draws me to 3 possible conclusions:

A: Satan is evil, and rewards evil, as mentioned above.
B: Satan feels regret for his treachery and punishes evil, along with himself.
C: Satan is made up (my money is on this one).

Thoughts?

Ok, you need to take another look at the theological base for what you are asking, then you can relook at the candidate conclusions.

1. Satan is not actually currently in Hell. Satan is destined to go to Hell. The casting down of Satan from heaven is a past event, the casting of Satan into the lake of fire is a future event as described in the Bible.
2. Noone rules Hell, everyone and everything in Hell is there as punishment.
3. Only a third of the angels rebelled, so even if God is somehow out of the picture Satan is outnumbered two to one in angelic strength.
4. God controls/ordains the topography, Biblical accounts refer to 'great chasms' separating the damned and the elect. An invasion from Hell is unlikely at best even if Satan happens to have more human recruits than God.

The above holds true for all three Judaic religions to the best of my knowledge so you need to adjust your paradigm. Much of the misconcentions of Satan stem from the Malleus Malificarum and the Divine Comedy. Dante's Divine Comedy misreads the Biblical account to base the book on, or more probably just took creative license for a better story. There are no 'Dukes of Hell' in the Biblical account.

Hope this helps.

You know, as per the bible, satan killed 10 people, total. In fact, those ten could be counted on gods hands as well.

As for "god", the lowest estimates put his kill count at 2.8 million.

Mysterious ways my ass.

Squigsquasher wrote:Satan, Lucifer, Old Nick, The Beast, whatever you want to call him. He has been a driving force in the narrative of Judaism, Christianity and Islam for thousands of years.

But hold on, there's a flaw.

Satan is supposedly the embodiment of evil, and rules Hell. Supposedly, sinners go to Hell and are punished. But surely, if Satan was so evil, then he would be congratulating sinners for their behaviour and rewarding them with indulgences and a place in the daemonic legions, so that he may one day rise up against God and finally put an end to his incompetence? This draws me to 3 possible conclusions:

A: Satan is evil, and rewards evil, as mentioned above.
B: Satan feels regret for his treachery and punishes evil, along with himself.
C: Satan is made up (my money is on this one).

Thoughts?

D. Satan has no power, because God slapped him silly and told him to sit down, shut up, and burn.

Melissia wrote:As an aside-- the original Satan ("ha-Satan") in the Jewish holy book was not an evil guy, he was basically god's "devil's advocate" or adversary, and god's prosecutor of sorts. He is charged by god to tempt humans and come back to god to report those who go against god's decrees.

The Old Testament is clear about who Satan is.

Isaiah 14: 12-15

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;
[b]14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.

Some scholars of the Old Testament have argued that Isaiah makes no reference to Satan the devil (ignoring of course that Ancient Jews had no such concept and obviously wouldn't write about it). Its generally believed now that Isaiah 14 12-15 refers to a Babylonian King, as there is similar textual evidence from other sources.

The modern concept of Satan didn't come into existence until the 2nd century AD at the earliest. Satan as he is portrayed in the Gospels bears no theological difference from the Jewish concept as all he does is tempt Jesus in order to test his righteousness. It's one of those weird things that the Catholic church invented probably.

LordofHats wrote:Some scholars of the Old Testament have argued that Isaiah makes no reference to Satan the devil (ignoring of course that Ancient Jews had no such concept and obviously wouldn't write about it). Its generally believed now that Isaiah 14 12-15 refers to a Babylonian King, as there is similar textual evidence from other sources.

Thats refered to as a prophetic type. Something on earth standing in as a substitute for a heavenly matter.

The Old Testament is full of such references, some are clear, others vague. Examples include Hosea and his wife which is a prophetic type for the relationship between God and Israel..

Amaya wrote:The modern concept of Satan didn't come into existence until the 2nd century AD at the earliest. Satan as he is portrayed in the Gospels bears no theological difference from the Jewish concept as all he does is tempt Jesus in order to test his righteousness. It's one of those weird things that the Catholic church invented probably.

The Book of Revelations conflicts with that theory.

Also Satan was supposed to have 'entered into' Judas in order to facilitate his betrayal.


The New Testament does however strongly consider Satan a dignitary to be respected rather than just a boogeyman, that has to a large extent been forgotten.

Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Orlanth wrote:Thats refered to as a prophetic type. Something on earth standing in as a substitute for a heavenly matter.

The Old Testament is full of such references, some are clear, others vague. Examples include Hosea and his wife which is a prophetic type for the relationship between God and Israel..

Extend that to Hosea's entire family IIRC.

Amaya wrote:The modern concept of Satan didn't come into existence until the 2nd century AD at the earliest. Satan as he is portrayed in the Gospels bears no theological difference from the Jewish concept as all he does is tempt Jesus in order to test his righteousness. It's one of those weird things that the Catholic church invented probably.

No the nuance is very clear. The Satan (used as a title) in Job, is clearly in God's service, takes orders from him, and obeys his will willingly. The Satan from the tempting of Jesus is referred to as a king of lies and a ruler of demons. They're not the same. But then, Jesus doesn't use Satan as a name in the Gospels, he uses it as an adjective.

LordofHats wrote:

Amaya wrote:The modern concept of Satan didn't come into existence until the 2nd century AD at the earliest. Satan as he is portrayed in the Gospels bears no theological difference from the Jewish concept as all he does is tempt Jesus in order to test his righteousness. It's one of those weird things that the Catholic church invented probably.

No the nuance is very clear. The Satan (used as a title) in Job, is clearly in God's service, takes orders from him, and obeys his will willingly. The Satan from the tempting of Jesus is referred to as a king of lies and a ruler of demons. They're not the same. But then, Jesus doesn't use Satan as a name in the Gospels, he uses it as an adjective.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:1-11;&version=NIV;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:12-13;&version=NIV;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204:1-13;&version=NIV;

Where?