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Simple reason why the devil lies to torment...

in the name of LORDI
"The devil is a loser, and he's my b***h! (FEMALE DOG)"

Orlanth wrote:
Also Satan was supposed to have 'entered into' Judas in order to facilitate his betrayal.

BahahahahahA!!!!!!

Original texts have Jesus saying 'you satan' in Matthew. But apparently that's a 'adjectival noun', according to my friend who is a linguist, so apparently my point is moot anyway.

Palindrome wrote:In other news; why does Santa feel compelled to reward good children once a year? What does he do the other 364 days a year (365 on a leap year)?

He knows who the bad girls are. Enough said.

Here's what I always had the most trouble with, and no one was ever able to satisfactorily address this for me.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. The bible says Satan rebelled against God and took some angels with him. How did they do this if they have no free will?

And How would this have happened if it wasn't Gods plan all along? Not so much a rebellion, but a very deliberate and desired outcome. God programmed Satan to rebel and take on his new job. He was repurposed.

You can't say God wouldn't have seen this coming, as that would negate the omniscience.

Which is quite disturbing when you stop and think about it.

Cave_Dweller wrote:Here's what I always had the most trouble with, and no one was ever able to satisfactorily address this for me.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. The bible says Satan rebelled against God and took some angels with him. How did they do this if they have no free will?

Best answer I can find for that is that angels have free will, but they also have more knowledge. You might rebel against the town lawman if you never saw him and knew of him only by reputation. But if you knew the town lawman personally, knew he had a big gun and was stronger and faster than you you might not.

Cave_Dweller wrote:
And How would this have happened if it wasn't Gods plan all along? Not so much a rebellion, but a very deliberate and desired outcome. God programmed Satan to rebel and take on his new job. He was repurposed.

Tricky one. Gods plans dont always pay off technically. The allegory of Adam and Eve explains this. Placed in garden, no knowledge of good and evil. Nice solid plan. However that plan 'failed'.
The thing is God is already aware of the failure, but when plan a 'fails'. He doesn't move to plan 'B' he moves to alternate plan 'A'.

One theological example is that in the beginning man spoke one language, so everyone could communicate, it was a perfect plan a for the start. God ordained than men should speak many languages and because divided, however now once we are dead we 'increase in knowledge' and can speak all languages. Thus heaven is not limited to one tongue but many and is thus enriched by their versatility yet not constrained as everyone knows them all.
Best citation for that is the book Visions Beyond the Veil.

Cave_Dweller wrote:
You can't say God wouldn't have seen this coming, as that would negate the omniscience.

Without free will God would simply be a tyrant and we would be automata. Perhaps this was better.

Cave_Dweller wrote:
Which is quite disturbing when you stop and think about it.

It is indeed. But perhaps we should be more disturbed if we did fully understand a being which is purportedly all powerful, all knowing and intellectually grossly superior to ourselves.
if I actually understood 'God', I probably had the wrong god.
Frankly I think we are missing something, I trust God enough to let some details slide until later. The core stuff works out alright and some of that is profound enough.

Orlanth wrote:
Without free will...

What is free will?

Cave_Dweller wrote:Here's what I always had the most trouble with, and no one was ever able to satisfactorily address this for me.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. The bible says Satan rebelled against God and took some angels with him. How did they do this if they have no free will?

And How would this have happened if it wasn't Gods plan all along? Not so much a rebellion, but a very deliberate and desired outcome. God programmed Satan to rebel and take on his new job. He was repurposed.

You can't say God wouldn't have seen this coming, as that would negate the omniscience.

Which is quite disturbing when you stop and think about it.

Not too disturbing seeing as though God is supposed to be God and do whatever the hell he wants anyways. Also angels do have free will, nothing says that they don't and the only thing the bible does say is that angels should be happy to do God's will, if they choose to then they can tell God to screw off but it usually doesn't end well. Also maybe that's why God beat Satan in the end, God knew exactly what Satan was going to do and its kind of easy to counter an opponent when you know what they are going to do. Satan is supposed to be the lord of deceit which means he would tempt people into following his will with the promise of reward and then yank the rug from under their feet after they do it. If you've seen any mafia movie then you kind of get the idea, the guy does what they want him to do and they kill him anyways.

Then it comes down to humans then, God knows what we're going to do so its predestination. However most people believe that the end is undecided until the end which negates the concept of predestination. Well again the whole concept of God giving free will comes into play, God is supposed to be all powerful so why shouldn't he just damn people from the start, the answer being God isn't a total dick. He wanted us to have free will so if he decided to not want to determine our future then he doesn't want to and doesn't have to. I know that most people would say that they wouldn't give that up if they had it, then again most people are dicks.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Without free will...

What is free will?

Something no one understands completely, not even the most scholarly of scholars nor most ignorant of ignoramuses.

I would argue there isn't free will when faced with the threats Christianity presents, which are extremely severe and beyond anything you could suffer in this life. Hell is scary and no sane person would want to end up there. In fact, you would do anything to avoid that fate. The threat, and it is a threat, of damnation is a powerful 'motivator.'

It always struck me like pointing a loaded gun at your kids face and saying "gee kiddo, I love you and all, but if you don't love me back I'm afraid you'll force me to pull this trigger and blow your face off."

That was what I found after going to church and studying it, and talking to my family, many of whom are extreme Christians, is that they're terrified of going to hell, and will do anything to avoid that. They literally don't think about anything other than not going to hell.

This is different, IMO, than loving God because you love him. It's love generated by fear.


Back to the omniscience thing, I still don't buy it. God already knows every outcome of every event in the universe, and either by direct action or inaction, has sanctioned them all.

It's not that he knew what satan would do, he created Satan to do exactly what he did. And the angels who followed him. There would be no mystery to it. They were created to specifically be the overlords of hell to punish those who reject God.

Squigsquasher wrote:Who cares, it's awesome!

Anyway, I have been thoroughly undone, congratulations, now I think we can let this thread die.

It isn't about winning or losing, but just about learning stuff. And I think the lesson in here for everyone is that whether you're a believer or not, if you want to comment or hold an opinion on the Bible, it's best you read the thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Perkustin wrote:The description of Satan in Dante Aligheri's 'Divine Comedy' is fairly accurate to the bible, or at least a decent intepretation.

Look it up.

Not really. I mean you could say it's accurate in that nothing in Bible really conflicts with the Divine Comedy, but that's only because there is very, very little about Hell in the bible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cave_Dweller wrote:I would argue there isn't free will when faced with the threats Christianity presents, which are extremely severe and beyond anything you could suffer in this life. Hell is scary and no sane person would want to end up there. In fact, you would do anything to avoid that fate. The threat, and it is a threat, of damnation is a powerful 'motivator.'

It always struck me like pointing a loaded gun at your kids face and saying "gee kiddo, I love you and all, but if you don't love me back I'm afraid you'll force me to pull this trigger and blow your face off."

That was what I found after going to church and studying it, and talking to my family, many of whom are extreme Christians, is that they're terrified of going to hell, and will do anything to avoid that. They literally don't think about anything other than not going to hell.

This is different, IMO, than loving God because you love him. It's love generated by fear.

That is a reasonable criticism of many strands of Christianity, but not the religion as a whole, because many versions are not simply about 'be good and love God or go to hell'. Most teach of a much more complicated relationship between loving God and doing good deeds. Some even teach of no hell, or that hell is simply the absence of God's love in the next life.

halonachos wrote:

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Without free will...

What is free will?

Something no one understands completely, not even the most scholarly of scholars nor most ignorant of ignoramuses.

Or perhaps, you know, it doesn't even exist?

First we need to figure out if the will does.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Without free will...

What is free will?

Or wonder if its a red herring that should be discarded.

The exact nature and definition of free will may be something we cannot quantify from our perspective, we can all work it out in part. When it comes to human will, we are almost definately seeing the bottle from the inside. Something is missing from out perception and that may well cover the question you asked.

Best I can say with that.

You find anyone who can define free will categorically and you have found someone who will be remembered for millenia to come as a giant of philosophy. Sorry to disappoint, but I am not that guy.
Flattered you should ask me though.

Orlanth wrote:
You find anyone who can define free will categorically and you have found someone who will be remembered for millenia to come as a giant of philosophy.

Then why do we persist in thinking it exists?

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
You find anyone who can define free will categorically and you have found someone who will be remembered for millenia to come as a giant of philosophy.

Then why do we persist in thinking it exists?

Because its perceptively a different state from our perspective of having 'no free will'. We can tell that two states exist, but as a subset of what larger whole?

Orlanth wrote:You find anyone who can define free will categorically and you have found someone who will be remembered for millenia to come as a giant of philosophy.

David Hume?

"this hypothetical liberty is universally allowed to belong to every one who is not a prisoner and in chains"

Orlanth wrote:
Because its perceptively a different state from our perspective of having 'no free will'.

No, bad answer. Free will needs to be a thing that is not free will, and is not defined by the absence of it.

Free will is not, not free will is not a good answer, it is a lazy answer. A sad answer.

All I know, if hell is where all the drugs and hookers are at, then that is where I want to be..