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So, what is the final verdict? so I can update the original post.

I am inclined to say that imweasel is correct, but that few ever play with his third assertion.
I am having a hard time faulting it though.

here is the rule sans fluff:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

So it tells you that when night fighting is in effect, that is when searchlights are used.

Then it goes on to explain how they are used.

So how do you use a searchlight?

You use the night fighting rules to pick a target

Then what?

Having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

So only if you illuminate the target have you used the searchlight.

DeathReaper wrote:here is the rule sans fluff:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

So it tells you that when night fighting is in effect, that is when searchlights are used.

Then it goes on to explain how they are used.

So how do you use a searchlight?

You use the night fighting rules to pick a target

Then what?

Having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

So only if you illuminate the target have you used the searchlight.

Actually, the first sentence says that a searchlight is used when Night Fighting is in effect. You don't have a choice.
The effect of a Searchlight is to illuminate a target you've acquired by using the Night Fight rules.
But using it happens when Night Fight rules are in effect and you're equipped with it.
So regardless of you attempting to fire - you're lit up.

What constitutes the use of a searchlight? Does the vehicle use the searchlight merely by being equipped with it? Or, does the vehicle use the searchlight when it illuminates an acquired target? I believe it's the latter. The vehicle uses the searchlight after it acquires a target. If it doesn't acquire a target it doesn't use the searchlight.


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rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:here is the rule sans fluff:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

So it tells you that when night fighting is in effect, that is when searchlights are used.

Then it goes on to explain how they are used.

So how do you use a searchlight?

You use the night fighting rules to pick a target

Then what?

Having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

So only if you illuminate the target have you used the searchlight.

Actually, the first sentence says that a searchlight is used when Night Fighting is in effect. You don't have a choice.
The effect of a Searchlight is to illuminate a target you've acquired by using the Night Fight rules.
But using it happens when Night Fight rules are in effect and you're equipped with it.
So regardless of you attempting to fire - you're lit up.

That is telling us when they are used. How they are used is described latter.

ToBeWilly wrote:What constitutes the use of a searchlight? Does the vehicle use the searchlight merely by being equipped with it? Or, does the vehicle use the searchlight when it illuminates an acquired target? I believe it's the latter. The vehicle uses the searchlight after it acquires a target. If it doesn't acquire a target it doesn't use the searchlight.

Your belief disagrees with the first sentence of the Searchlight rules.
"Searchlights are used where the Night Fighting rules are in effect."
So if the Night Fighting rules are in effect, Searchlights are used.
There's no option. It just happens.

The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

ToBeWilly wrote:That is telling us when they are used. How they are used is described latter.

Correct.
The "However" sentence doesn't care about how.
It only says "However, a vehicle that uses a Searchlight..." which means that any time a Searchlight is used, the user is illuminated.
There's no bound on the first sentence that says when they are used. Which means they are used when Night Fighting is in effect.
So when Night Fighting is in effect, they are used - and you're illuminated.


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kirsanth wrote:The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

I disagree - the first sentence establishes use where the Night Fighting rules are in effect.
So the issue is larger than that - the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

I disagree. Searchlights are only used after you acquire a target. If you do not acquire a target searchlights are not used.

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

I disagree - the first sentence establishes use where the Night Fighting rules are in effect.
So the issue is larger than that - the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

That was my initial thought - well, secondary since initially I thought this was incorrect!
The thing is, without shooting the night fight rules are not in effect.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

I disagree - the first sentence establishes use where the Night Fighting rules are in effect.
So the issue is larger than that - the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

That was my initial thought - well, secondary since initially I thought this was incorrect!
The thing is, without shooting the night fight rules are not in effect.

Not true. You only make Night Fighting checks while the Night Fighting rules are in effect, but the Night Fighting rules are in effect (for example) "During game Turn 1 the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect." in Dawn of War.

So for the entire Game Turn, the NF rules are in effect. When they're in effect Searchlights are used.


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ToBeWilly wrote:I disagree. Searchlights are only used after you acquire a target. If you do not acquire a target searchlights are not used.

Rules support? The SM codex disagrees.

rigeld2 wrote:So for the entire Game Turn, the NF rules are in effect. When they're in effect Searchlights are used.

Funnily enough, its the rest of the rules about timing that still have us disagreeing about why we agree.

heh

We are given the timing of their use - that is why the others think the use can be avoided.

rigeld2 wrote:the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

Citation needed.

The first line of the rule does not tell us how the searchlights work. They just tell us when the searchlights are able to be used. (The use is automatic upon spotting, but you only spot when Night fight is in effect we find this out in the second part of the rule.)

So, your saying, the very fact you have a searchlight equipped vehicle means any enemy unit may target it with out rolling for night fight, regardless if you tried to fire it or not?

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

Citation needed.

The first line of the rule does not tell us how the searchlights work. They just tell us when the searchlights are able to be used. (The use is automatic upon spotting, but you only spot when Night fight is in effect we find this out in the second part of the rule.)

Actually no - the first sentence says when they are used.
The rest of the rule describes how to use them and what they do. But they are used when Night Fighting is in effect.


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ToBeWilly wrote:So, your saying, the very fact you have a searchlight equipped vehicle means any enemy unit may target it with out rolling for night fight, regardless if you tried to fire it or not?

According to the rules yes. If, that is, the "However" sentence applies to more than just the successful spot.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So for the entire Game Turn, the NF rules are in effect. When they're in effect Searchlights are used.

Funnily enough, its the rest of the rules about timing that still have us disagreeing about why we agree.

heh

We are given the timing of their use - that is why the others think the use can be avoided.

The timing is when Night Fighting rules are in effect. Night Fighting rules are in effect for the entire game turn.
I don't see any flaw with that connection. Can someone point it out?

I am confusing myself reading posts instead of rules.

My point is that the ACTUAL Night Fighting rules themselves only occur after selecting a target.

kirsanth wrote:I am confusing myself reading posts instead of rules.

My point is that the ACTUAL Night Fighting rules themselves only occur after selecting a target.

But they're in effect for the entire game turn. Which is all the first sentence of Searchlight says - in effect.

The flaw in that connection is that you do not use the searchlight unless you spot a target.

rigeld2 wrote:Actually no - the first sentence says when they are used.
The rest of the rule describes how to use them and what they do. But they are used when Night Fighting is in effect.

Which is what I said...

We know when spotlights are used- when the night fighting rules are in effect.

But the searchlight can not be used until they tell us how to use it.

and you use the searchlight is used upon successfully spotting a target. and not automatically all the time when it is night fight.

DeathReaper wrote:The flaw in that connection is that you do not successfully use the searchlight unless you spot a target.

That is the way I have been reading it now.


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DeathReaper wrote:you use the searchlight is used upon successfully spotting a target. and not automatically all the time when it is night fight.

And this is how I used to read it.

Editing to add:
I am going to go have some coffee. Methinks I am simply confusing myself.

DeathReaper wrote:We know when spotlights are used- when the night fighting rules are in effect.

But the searchlight can not be used until they tell us how to use it.

False assumption. It is used while Night Fighting is in effect, but only has an effect after you spot a unit.

and you use the searchlight is used upon successfully spotting a target. and not automatically all the time when it is night fight.

The searchlight illuminates the target after it's been successfully spotted, but that's the effect, not the use.
The rule doesn't say "It's used when you make a successful night fighting check".
The rule doesn't say "However, a vehicle that successfully spots..."

It is not a false assumption.

a searchlight is used when night fighting is in effect.

But how do you use it?

The second sentence tells us how to use the searchlight. Rather that they are automatically used when you successfully spot a target.

"it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

This is how you actually use the searchlight, so you only use the searchlight after having acquired a target using the night fighting rules.

DeathReaper wrote:It is not a false assumption.

a searchlight is used when night fighting is in effect.

But how do you use it?

The second sentence tells us how to use the searchlight. Rather that they are automatically used when you successfully spot a target.

"it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

This is how you actually use the searchlight, so you only use the searchlight after having acquired a target using the night fighting rules.

Funny, I don't see "This is the use of" I see a description of an effect.
The effect only happens on a successful night fight check, but they're used when the night fight rules are in effect.

rigeld2 wrote:The effect only happens on a successful night fight check, but they're used when the night fight rules are in effect.

The drawback hinges on using a searchlight. "A vehicle that uses a searchlight, can be targeted..."(BA book 61)

And how do you use a searchlight?

does this "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." tell you how you use a searchlight?

Or does this? "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

Linguistics say it is the second one.

So assuming the searchlight is always ON...
If a vehicle shoots an already illuminated target, it's searchlight would then be turned OFF as the target "does not use the Night Fighting rule" while illuminated? Seems a slightly backwards way of doing things.

(quoted from the IG codex, not sure if the wording is different from the SM one)

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The effect only happens on a successful night fight check, but they're used when the night fight rules are in effect.

The drawback hinges on using a searchlight. "A vehicle that uses a searchlight, can be targeted..."(BA book 61)

Slightly different from the SM one, but close enough it's irrelevant (SM says "However, a vehicle...")

And how do you use a searchlight?

You don't. You have no choice in the matter. Searchlights are used (ie - turned on) when NF is in effect, and the effect they have happens when a successful NF check is made.

Shrouding is used "during the opponent's Shooting phase". Its effect is only realized when the unit suffers a wound, however. See how use can be separated from effect?

grendel083 wrote:If a vehicle shoots an already illuminated target, it's searchlight would then be turned OFF as the target "does not use the Night Fighting rule" while illuminated?

No. It's always on. The NF rule is in effect during the game turn, but you do not roll a night fighting check if you're shooting an illuminated target.

Two things named the same in 40k that are completely different. One is an effect that lasts for game turns, the other is a roll you make to be able to fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:]And how do you use a searchlight?

You don't. You have no choice in the matter. Searchlights are used (ie - turned on) when NF is in effect, and the effect they have happens when a successful NF check is made.

Yes you do use a searchlight. Their use is automatic upon acquiring a target.

That is how you use a searchlight. The rules back this up by saying: "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." does not tell you how you use a searchlight. It tells you when you use a searchlight. and you use it as outlined with the next sentence.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:]And how do you use a searchlight?

You don't. You have no choice in the matter. Searchlights are used (ie - turned on) when NF is in effect, and the effect they have happens when a successful NF check is made.

Yes you do use a searchlight. Their use is automatic upon acquiring a target.

I see no rule saying that.

That is how you use a searchlight. The rules back this up by saying: "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

I see nothing in that sentence saying that a searchlight is used. I see a sentence describing the effect of a searchlight when you use the night fighting rules.

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." does not tell you how you use a searchlight. It tells you when you use a searchlight. and you use it as outlined with the next sentence.

It says when searchlights are used. You agree to that.
The Night Fighting rules are in effect for the game turn. You can't dispute that.
Therefore searchlights are used for the entire game turn. You dispute that?

You're still attaching use to effect. Stop doing that without a reason to.

Then you are reading it incorrectly.

What constitutes the Use of a searchlight?

Is (#1) "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." the use of said searchlight?

Or is (#2) "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..." the use of said searchlight?

Linguistics say #2 is the use, and #1 is when the use can occur

DeathReaper wrote:Is (#1) "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." the use of said searchlight?

It's telling you when it is used.


Your #2 is telling you how it is used. But you're not looking for the how... In order to determine if the searchlight was used at a given time, you look at the rule that says when the searchlight is used.


If the searchlight is used, the vehicle illuminates itself. The searchlight is used when the Night Fight rule is in effect. The Night Fight rule is in effect when you try to target a vehicle that has not already been illuminated.

Whether or not your spotting roll is successful, the Night Fight rule is in effect. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have rolled for spotting distance. And because the Night Fight rule is in effect, the searchlight was used.

rigeld2 wrote:Actually, the first sentence says that a searchlight is used when Night Fighting is in effect. You don't have a choice.

You're reading way too much into that one sentence. All it does is tell you when the searchlight can be used, nothing more. If I tell someone that they can use a ranged weapon in the Shooting Phase I haven't made it mandatory for them to shoot, just that if they want to shoot that is when they do so.