Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:You're asserting that using a searchlight is the NF check. Correct?
I'm not sure how you're reading the searchlight rules to make that assertion. Could you help me understand?

I think (hope?) that he's saying it *could* be the NF check. It's not defined as such. But it's not defined as a "successful NF check" either. It's not defined. That's the epiphany Kirsanth and I both came to, I think - that we'd been playing it one way when it could just as easily be the other.

@Kirsanth - the reason I'm not advocating hard for the "exposed if fail check" position is that in actuality searchlight usage doctrine usually boiled down to, "don't". There was some silliness about searchight dazzle as a viable tactic in WWII and Cold War era field manuals, but in reality it was a huge, "shoot me!" sign. Searchlights don't work in the sort of setting we're using them, in most cases (Vietnam etc.) they were used in environments where one side had a huge firepower advantage and the other depended on stealth.

So, again, either interpretation is just as valid as the other.

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You're asserting that using a searchlight is the NF check. Correct?
I'm not sure how you're reading the searchlight rules to make that assertion. Could you help me understand?

I think (hope?) that he's saying it *could* be the NF check. It's not defined as such. But it's not defined as a "successful NF check" either. It's not defined. That's the epiphany Kirsanth and I both came to, I think - that we'd been playing it one way when it could just as easily be the other.

A Night Fight check is well defined - as a Tyranid, I can make them whenever needed. A searchlight has no effect on the Night Fight check. Therefore rolling for Night Fight cannot be how a searchlight is used.
If the rule said that a searchlight check is made - which is the same as a NF check - that'd be one thing.
But the rules tell you to do something that has nothing to do with a searchlight, and then after it works you do searchlight stuff.

Randall Turner summed it up well.

The thing is weirder than it should be.
Let's meet back here in two weeks and see if they made it more clear in the change.

Randall Turner wrote:in reality it was a huge, "shoot me!" sign

I guess I take back what I said about real life having nothing to do with this rule. 40k seems to use the tactic of not lighting up until the enemy is spotted.

The rules are in effect the whole turn, the rules also are in effect only when rolling to see.
They are in effect whether or not that roll prevents you from firing, or you would have fired!!

Page 63 of the space wolf codex searchlight rules tells me that you pick your target, roll 2d6 to see the target (even if it has a searchlight) having acquired a target will illuminate the target. This is non debatable - the light comes on when a target is acquired meaning rolled to see and passed. It goes on to say that the rest of your army can see the target spotlighted and your models do not test for night fighting if shooting at the initial targeted enemy. ( here's the however part). However, a vehicle using a search light can be seen in the next turn because the enemy can see it.

It's pretty straight forward... Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used. Don't keep lighting up different targets with all your other models because they use their lights then...shoot the same model and they don't.


Simple rule IMO and worded fine.

Kal-El wrote:Page 63 of the space wolf codex searchlight rules tells me that you pick your target, roll 2d6 to see the target (even if it has a searchlight) having acquired a target will illuminate the target. This is non debatable - the light comes on when a target is acquired meaning rolled to see and passed. It goes on to say that the rest of your army can see the target spotlighted and your models do not test for night fighting if shooting at the initial targeted enemy. ( here's the however part). However, a vehicle using a search light can be seen in the next turn because the enemy can see it.

It's pretty straight forward... Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used. Don't keep lighting up different targets with all your other models because they use their lights then...shoot the same model and they don't.


Simple rule IMO and worded fine.

It's like you didn't even read the thread. The SW codex rules don't differ from any of the others that have been quoted.

I'm going to take exception to this, Kal-El. You're saying it's very clear that searchlights are only used, ie, only come on, when the target is illuminated. That's not true. It simply does not say that. ie,

"Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used." Doesn't say that, does it.

It is a simple rule, but page 4 and still going.

We haven't even talked about choosing to not use your searchlight, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to every time.

erikwfg wrote:It is a simple rule, but page 4 and still going.

We haven't even talked about choosing to not use your searchlight, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to every time.

You don't have the choice at all. Making sense or not doesn't matter - the rule doesn't allow you to have a choice.

rigeld2 wrote:You don't have the choice at all. Making sense or not doesn't matter - the rule doesn't allow you to have a choice.

That much we all agree on!

erikwfg wrote:We haven't even talked about choosing to not use your searchlight, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to every time.

That was covered at the start of the thread. You don't have a choice to not use it.

Perhaps, but it's kind've an unspoken rule that you don't always have to use your wargear and abilities that give you an advantage. The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

erikwfg wrote:The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

Only if you have a different special close combat weapon.

Maybe they'll change that (auto use) in 6th too. <shrug> Again, it simply wasn't much of an issue before Necrons came along.

erikwfg wrote:Perhaps, but it's kind've an unspoken rule that you don't always have to use your wargear and abilities that give you an advantage. The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

And people are wrong. You're not allowed to make that choice at all.

That changes the game for alot of people then.

How would one determine what you are using to fight a walker with then? Grenades might be better but hit worse, any special close combat weapon could potentially be worse. Would you really have to use the special weapon?

These are somewhat rhetorical, but it gets you thinking. I will admit the searchlight doesn't say "may" anywhere or otherwise imply you have a choice.

erikwfg wrote:How would one determine what you are using to fight a walker with then? Grenades might be better but hit worse, any special close combat weapon could potentially be worse. Would you really have to use the special weapon?

You can always opt for grenades against vehicles. But in a normal CC you can't pick.

erikwfg wrote:Perhaps, but it's kind've an unspoken rule that you don't always have to use your wargear and abilities that give you an advantage.

It's really not.

You don't have to use wargear or abilities that are written in such a way as to make their use optional. You do have to use wargear or abilities that automatically apply.

The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

You can only choose to not use the powerfist if you have a different Special Close Combat weapon to use instead, in which case you choose which to use. The rules are crystal clear on that one.

I think that's too literal of a rules interpretation. You will never take my freedom.

erikwfg wrote:I think that's too literal of a rules interpretation. You will never take my freedom.

Too literal? It's exactly what the rules say. Page 42, right side, "A normal and a special weapon"

Have fun with your house rule.

rigeld2 wrote:Have fun with your house rule.

For the next few weeks.

Last edition you could choose to turn off the powerfist. Who knows how it will work next edition...

rigeld2 wrote:

Kal-El wrote:Page 63 of the space wolf codex searchlight rules tells me that you pick your target, roll 2d6 to see the target (even if it has a searchlight) having acquired a target will illuminate the target. This is non debatable - the light comes on when a target is acquired meaning rolled to see and passed. It goes on to say that the rest of your army can see the target spotlighted and your models do not test for night fighting if shooting at the initial targeted enemy. ( here's the however part). However, a vehicle using a search light can be seen in the next turn because the enemy can see it.

It's pretty straight forward... Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used. Don't keep lighting up different targets with all your other models because they use their lights then...shoot the same model and they don't.


Simple rule IMO and worded fine.

It's like you didn't even read the thread. The SW codex rules don't differ from any of the others that have been quoted.

I read everything that was posted. There is a lot of back and forth. Imo You do not need to declare that your using a search light because if your firing with a vehicle that has a search light it is considered used once you roll to see if you can see your oppon
ent and hits, per searchlight rules. The rules seem pretty clear to me - The area I play in though does not play this way...you declare your using your light before your roll and press on accordingly. It is a loophole way around still firing your vehicles without lighting up own vehicles so the other guy has to use night fight also.

If Searchlights were used before spotting the enemy, they'd probably make the Night Fighting roll easier. As it stands, they don't impact it at all.

If you're looking for realism/versimilitude, the tactic being simulated is that the guys don't expose themselves with their lights until and unless they find a target. Once they do, they do ahead and light up.

insaniak wrote:

erikwfg wrote:The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

You can only choose to not use the powerfist if you have a different Special Close Combat weapon to use instead, in which case you choose which to use. The rules are crystal clear on that one.

Or if you have 3 or more weapons...

But lets not get into that so close to 6th ed.

DeathReaper wrote:

insaniak wrote:

erikwfg wrote:The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

You can only choose to not use the powerfist if you have a different Special Close Combat weapon to use instead, in which case you choose which to use. The rules are crystal clear on that one.

Or if you have 3 or more weapons...

But lets not get into that so close to 6th ed.

Not necessarily. If I have a Powerfist, pistol, and combat blade (don't think it's possible, but whatever), I still must use the Powerfist, even though I have 3 close combat weapons.

What if theres no search light or it's broken, perhaps The weapon doesnt work, then what would you do..... that my friends is the bigger question

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Or if you have 3 or more weapons...

But lets not get into that so close to 6th ed.

Not necessarily. If I have a Powerfist, pistol, and combat blade (don't think it's possible, but whatever), I still must use the Powerfist, even though I have 3 close combat weapons.

There are not really any clear rules to what happens when someone has 3 weapons. (I thought the language was clear, but others disagree so it is not clear)

But it does not need to be rehashed here.

as this has all the information on both sides of the ball: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/393443.page

One last post on 3+ close combat weapons. Iirc, having more than 2 weapons doesn't do anything, you just get the +1attack for 2 ccw. Note that this only applies if you do not have 2 different special ccws.

Happyjew wrote:One last post on 3+ close combat weapons. Iirc, having more than 2 weapons doesn't do anything, you just get the +1attack for 2 ccw. Note that this only applies if you do not have 2 different special ccws.

There are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon, or models with one special weapon and two special weapons.

Yakface explains it very well:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/240925.page#730967