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Nitros14 wrote:Some rumours regarding 6th edition mentioned that Fantasy-style challenges could be coming to close combat in 40k.

If that worked the way Fantasy does, that would require your power fist champions/sergeants to either accept the challenge and fight one-on-one with your opponent's character/champion (and possibly die before swinging) or hide behind his unit and not attack.

Given that the advantage of power fists in 5th is that they cannot be singled out by attacks and almost always to get to swing that seems like it would make power fists less valuable.

Fantasy style challenges would mean unit champions can issue and accept challenges, but don't take any penalties for declining a challenge.

Some examples.

Abbadon challenges a BA priest, priest declines, priest goes to the back of the unit, can't attack, and can't be attacked.

Or a Sargent accepts in place of the priest, gets murdered, and overkill wounds count towards CC resolution. Other 6th ed rumors are different levels of instant death = multiple wounds, so the overkill might be a lot of combat resolution.

It's not the end of the world, worse case scenario when smartly played is an IC declines and loses hit attacks.

This wouldn't really hurt Guard or Orks though. For example, a regular commissar in a blob would be completely safe. He's part of the unit, and is not an independent character. As far as what we know, he would be completely safe, and couldn't be called out. Same goes for the nob in a mob of boyz. He's an upgraded boy, not an IC, so he would be safe as well. Now if you had a mekboy or a warboss in that mob of boyz, or a priest or a Lord Commissar with the guardsmen, then it would be a problem, as those are all IC's, and COULD be singled out.

I'm guessing the same would go for regular space marine sarges in a normal squad. He's a regular guy in the squad, not an IC, so he can't be challenged.

That said, we haven't seen the actual book so that could very well change. We don't even know if it's real at all at this point, and won't know for sure until it comes out.

MrMoustaffa wrote:This wouldn't really hurt Guard or Orks though. For example, a regular commissar in a blob would be completely safe. He's part of the unit, and is not an independent character. As far as what we know, he would be completely safe, and couldn't be called out. Same goes for the nob in a mob of boyz. He's an upgraded boy, not an IC, so he would be safe as well. Now if you had a mekboy or a warboss in that mob of boyz, or a priest or a Lord Commissar with the guardsmen, then it would be a problem, as those are all IC's, and COULD be singled out.

I'm guessing the same would go for regular space marine sarges in a normal squad. He's a regular guy in the squad, not an IC, so he can't be challenged.

That said, we haven't seen the actual book so that could very well change. We don't even know if it's real at all at this point, and won't know for sure until it comes out.

Once again worse case scenario is the mekboy or lord commissar loses their attacks and can't be attacked by enemy units.

It does make some sense, too. It's just to easy to say: "ok squad, I'm wielding the PowerFist and I'm your sergeant, so I'll have to take my time to reach the first line: go on and let the opponent's hero kill you while I deliver this powerful blow". This makes no sense, if you're THE GUY with THE POWAHFIST, you are in first line, ready to fight, eager to smash it on the opponent, so it makes sense that the opponent will target YOU:
- Because you're the MAN
- Because you wield a POWAHFIST
- Because your POWAHFIST makes you slow.
No more hiding, you POWAH-Claws&Fists!

wuestenfux wrote:Well, duels are not part of modern warfare. Not sue what GW is thinking. That's garbage.

Neither are chainsaw sword or space wizards but they're still in 40k.

I like the idea of duelling IC's, it's cinematic and if you don't want your Sanguinary Priest to get called out and murdered by Abaddon you should probably make sure he doesn't get near him.

schadenfreude wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:This wouldn't really hurt Guard or Orks though. For example, a regular commissar in a blob would be completely safe. He's part of the unit, and is not an independent character. As far as what we know, he would be completely safe, and couldn't be called out. Same goes for the nob in a mob of boyz. He's an upgraded boy, not an IC, so he would be safe as well. Now if you had a mekboy or a warboss in that mob of boyz, or a priest or a Lord Commissar with the guardsmen, then it would be a problem, as those are all IC's, and COULD be singled out.

I'm guessing the same would go for regular space marine sarges in a normal squad. He's a regular guy in the squad, not an IC, so he can't be challenged.

That said, we haven't seen the actual book so that could very well change. We don't even know if it's real at all at this point, and won't know for sure until it comes out.

Once again worse case scenario is the mekboy or lord commissar loses their attacks and can't be attacked by enemy units.

At the moment they can't do anything about it. If a Marine sargent with a power fist gets B2B with your LC, he's dead.
So it'll actually make LCs/Priests worth taking sure they can still be attacked by regular dudes, but such is war.

I think it'd be better if there was a rule that if a IC kills another IC in Combat, then any unit he's in gets +1 Combat Resolution. Like the normal guys are like "woo, our Leader's the best and now their's is dead".

So, it's not mandatory to have this duel, you can't even "issue" it as such, just if you end up being in BtB with another IC character and kill him, ou get the +1 Combat res.

On top of the 2-3 combat rez from just killing him

schadenfreude wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:This wouldn't really hurt Guard or Orks though. For example, a regular commissar in a blob would be completely safe. He's part of the unit, and is not an independent character. As far as what we know, he would be completely safe, and couldn't be called out. Same goes for the nob in a mob of boyz. He's an upgraded boy, not an IC, so he would be safe as well. Now if you had a mekboy or a warboss in that mob of boyz, or a priest or a Lord Commissar with the guardsmen, then it would be a problem, as those are all IC's, and COULD be singled out.

I'm guessing the same would go for regular space marine sarges in a normal squad. He's a regular guy in the squad, not an IC, so he can't be challenged.

That said, we haven't seen the actual book so that could very well change. We don't even know if it's real at all at this point, and won't know for sure until it comes out.

Once again worse case scenario is the mekboy or lord commissar loses their attacks and can't be attacked by enemy units.

I was mainly pointing out that guys like regular commissars and nobs were safe from this. People were crying about their sarges, regular commissars, and nobs getting challenged, when according to what we know, they dont apply.

And as for a Lord commisar losing his attacks, I dont think it'll be a huge loss. Most people use him as a babysitter for their HWS's, so it's not like he gets much close combat time. However if you were running him with ogryn or something, this could be something to worry about.

Nix wrote:It does make some sense, too. It's just to easy to say: "ok squad, I'm wielding the PowerFist and I'm your sergeant, so I'll have to take my time to reach the first line: go on and let the opponent's hero kill you while I deliver this powerful blow". This makes no sense, if you're THE GUY with THE POWAHFIST, you are in first line, ready to fight, eager to smash it on the opponent, so it makes sense that the opponent will target YOU:
- Because you're the MAN
- Because you wield a POWAHFIST
- Because your POWAHFIST makes you slow.
No more hiding, you POWAH-Claws&Fists!

Well this is true but if the rules change then no one would pay 25 points to watch their sergeants get slaughtered and then watch the rest of troops run away.

I really think Imothek's rule is the strongest indicator of where this is going (considering it was the last Codex to hit the printers, and its one of the bigger head scratcher rules at the moment), which means all characters (Independent or otherwise) are going to be free game.

PFists will still be a strong anti-walker contingency (assuming Dreads don't gain this ability, just characters), which is the primary reason for taking the PFist in the first place, so I think the "PFists are dead" hyperbole is exactly that. Seriously, random bitch with a PFist pwns Dante has been a glaring weakness of the current rule set for sometime.

Another thing to consider, units that can hide PFists on none characters suddenly get a little stronger in comparison, and generally these tend to be more expensive, and less popular units (Terms, Vetererans, Deathcompany come to mind).