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You cannot deny people basic rights allowed to others because of something legal they choose to do.

What about a twenty year vets with multiple combat tours? That smokes.

If said vet gets lung cancer, hell yeah. If he's got some other problem, treat him.

In a country that has a NHS like the UK, if that government also allows the sale of tobacco and whatever else people smoke, I don't see how they can turn around and say you get no health care for your smoking ailments. If it so bad then Ban the Sale of it, do it for the children....

Even someone in prison is entitled to free health care. Shouldn't matter if someone smokes. Why not stop those that drink alcoholic beverages from getting free healthcare what with alcoholism and liver damage. Those that get drunk and injured shouldn't get help. That is a choice, a legal one just like smoking.

If you read my posts, I DO think that people who get liver damage from over consumption of alcohol should have to pay for treatment themselves.
I didn't always think like this, but more exposure to sections of the public who have had to state make up for their bad choices consistently for years is changing my attitude.

Da Boss wrote:If you read my posts, I DO think that people who get liver damage from over consumption of alcohol should have to pay for treatment themselves.
I didn't always think like this, but more exposure to sections of the public who have had to state make up for their bad choices consistently for years is changing my attitude.

Well at least your proposed policy change that will affect millions (not including yourself may I add) is based on verifiable facts and figures, rather than anecdotal evidence.

All that would actually happen is people would be more dishonest with Healthcare Professionals, which as I mentioned on page 1 is not a good thing.

On the topic of alcool addiction : William James wrote a small chapter on alcohol dementia, and reported a case of a patient that had been admitted in a hospice to treat his addiction. After a few days of trying to obtain alcohol through different means, but failing, the patient went to a barn, and using an axe found there, cut his hand. He then cried out for some rhum. In the confusion, the attendants brought him alcohol and he obtained what he wanted.

On another case, another hospitalized patient drank the alcohol in the organ jars. When he was asked how he could do such a horrible thing, he said that all thought of disgust just flew away from his mind whenever he smelled the alcohol.

Hard to understand that kind of dedication to a substance.

Alcohol withdrawal is pretty horrendous, to be fair. It's physiologically much more severe than heroin withdrawal.

Dael: Heh, I can't ever see what I'm suggesting being implemented as policy. It'd be far too unpopular (as demonstrated by this thread). I think it'd be fair, and I think it'd be good for people to take ownership of their lives a little more. I don't think for a second it'll actually happen.

dæl wrote:

Testify wrote:Gaming is not an addiction can we clear that up now.

It is if you do so much of it that it becomes detrimental to your life, addiction can be physical or psychological, the point is that you are doing things which you feel compelled to and the rest of your life suffers.

More often than not, an activity can become addicting, not because of the activity itself, but rather the mental stimulus it provides.

I was once told that the reason I rode my bicycle so much was that I was addicted to the endorphines that come after I stop riding... I would say that this is quite the same with those who are addicted to "gaming"... Much the same as someone addicted to gambling.. its a mental stimulus that your brain begins to crave, which actually (according to some) make these sorts of addictions worse than the 'physical' ones such as drugs or alcohol.

Da Boss wrote:Dael: Heh, I can't ever see what I'm suggesting being implemented as policy. It'd be far too unpopular (as demonstrated by this thread). I think it'd be fair, and I think it'd be good for people to take ownership of their lives a little more. I don't think for a second it'll actually happen.

That's a fair point, you never offered it as policy, merely opinion. I think there are better ways to make people take personal responsibility for their actions than what is effectively a death sentence, unless they have lots of money of course, but the very idea of "those people made the wrong choice now they die painful deaths without even palliative care" seems a bit uncivilised.

Well, I never said they'd be denied healthcare, just that they could pay for it.

Da Boss, I truly think you don't understand the concept of addiction.
I've been an alcho for years, after i gave up using other drugs. As someone else said "it creeps up on you", you seem to be making out like it is a logical conscious decision.
Only now after drinking solidly for 9 years can i now "win" 90% of the time when the urge to drink arrives. That whole time i knew it wasa bad decision, i knew it was detrimental, logic doesn't necessarily cause you to "win".
I now manage my addiction by putting aside 2 days every 2 weeks to have a bender, though pretty soon i hope to be shifting this to every 3 weeks.
I myself avoided anything narcotic based (except ciggarettes) in my fun days, as i knew i'd never stop if i tried it.
Stopping addiction requires constant renewed effort, and not collapsing due to failure.
Dissalowing people healthcare is to be frank BS, the money you would save the healthcare system would most likely be spent on the mountain of beaurocracy required to police it. but still BS comments like that resonate in the media.

Bullockist,

A lot of the people I knew that were solid alcoholics and drug users started out young, partying with friends. At that point it was mostly for the sake of sharing in an adventure. As they got more into it, the desire to get high or drunk more and more took center stage until they were solidly hooked.
Then you have the conditions that King Cracker describes, where it's more along the lines of the Hank Williams Jr. song "Family Tradition".
I have seen kids in the middle of a room w ith their parents and other people smoking crack, with the child not realizing this is wrong. There are cultures in in industrialized nations where drinking is allowed at a young age. I remember being given beer by some French friends of the family when I was 4. There are definitly a lot of paths to addiction and I've only covered a couple.
I think the statement you made, if I read it right carries a lot of merit.

I am addicted to the thrill of spilling waves of my opponents' blood in armed combat.

Actually just cigarettes. I have kicked everything else I have come in contact with.

The difficulty with addiction is that our bodies are wired to form addictions and habits. We are addicted to sugar and fats because that was the best things a caveman could look for; our minds form habits, because routine requires little mental effort. Some things will affect people, some things won't.

I do not drink alcohol, coffee or tea; I do not smoke or try drugs. A little extreme but the less things one can get addicted, to the better.

I'm not really addicted to to anything, although I occassionally like to smoke weed or drink.

Ive I went thru a 10 year peroid in my life when I smoked a crazy amount of weed. I was working non stop and would smoke an easy 4 grams of really good quality hydro every night solo and twice that on weekends.

I was spending nearly half my paycheck on dope and had numerous failed reltationships due to my habit (I would never want to go out to the pub or anything because I was a paranoid stoned wreck in public)

I have recently broke the habit thanks in no small part to wargaming giving me something to look forward to that didnt involve getting baked.

For the record I hardly drink and can count on my hands the times I have done other drugs and yes I do think there are some long term damaging effects of smoking so much weed (my memory is still horrible but slowly getting better)

Da Boss wrote:Alcohol withdrawal is pretty horrendous, to be fair. It's physiologically much more severe than heroin withdrawal.

Its also one of the only forms of common narcotics withdrawal that can kill you.

Anyway, I've done some narcotics in my time, though never seriously. Most of them do very little for me, I hate the feeling of being high, and hallucinogens always seemed more like a "Do it for the experience." thing than something to use regularly. One thing that saved me though is that I've known for years, probably since 14-15 that I'm chemically addicted to caffeine; this made me very wary of cocaine and likely prevented me from following the path some friends took.

Alcohol I use regularly, though not like I did during college, and especially not like I did after first graduating (it wasn't uncommon for me to have a hangover every morning for a week).

Sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll... I do it all and love every minute of it.

I do not smoke.
I do not drink alcohol
I do not use drugs
I rarely allow doctors to give me medication.


Im a pretty square fellow. But I will drink sun tea like a mofo though.

Bullockist wrote:Da Boss, I truly think you don't understand the concept of addiction.
I've been an alcho for years, after i gave up using other drugs. As someone else said "it creeps up on you", you seem to be making out like it is a logical conscious decision.
Only now after drinking solidly for 9 years can i now "win" 90% of the time when the urge to drink arrives. That whole time i knew it wasa bad decision, i knew it was detrimental, logic doesn't necessarily cause you to "win".
I now manage my addiction by putting aside 2 days every 2 weeks to have a bender, though pretty soon i hope to be shifting this to every 3 weeks.
I myself avoided anything narcotic based (except ciggarettes) in my fun days, as i knew i'd never stop if i tried it.
Stopping addiction requires constant renewed effort, and not collapsing due to failure.
Dissalowing people healthcare is to be frank BS, the money you would save the healthcare system would most likely be spent on the mountain of beaurocracy required to police it. but still BS comments like that resonate in the media.

I do understand the concept of addiction, don't worry.

I still believe it comes down to a series of bad choices, and I'm less comfortable nowadays with the state running around "picking up after" people's bad choices.
Just to be clear, because re-reading I wasn't clear at all on this, I don't have a problem with state funded rehab programs. Helping people quit is fine. People who won't or don't want to quit shouldn't get treated until they do, though.

Also, I don't class psychological addictions as "addictions" per se. They are not physiologically the same as a chemical addiction.

And btw, when I say disallowing people healthcare, I mean, quite specifically, healthcare for conditions that are directly attributable to their substance abuse. So lung cancer for smokers, liver failure or alcohol OD for drinkers, and various ODs for drug users.

My experience of drug users has left me feeling that pity doesn't get you anywhere.

Da Boss wrote:
I still believe it comes down to a series of bad choices, and I'm less comfortable nowadays with the state running around "picking up after" people's bad choices.
Just to be clear, because re-reading I wasn't clear at all on this, I don't have a problem with state funded rehab programs. Helping people quit is fine. People who won't or don't want to quit shouldn't get treated until they do, though.

Also, I don't class psychological addictions as "addictions" per se. They are not physiologically the same as a chemical addiction.

And btw, when I say disallowing people healthcare, I mean, quite specifically, healthcare for conditions that are directly attributable to their substance abuse. So lung cancer for smokers, liver failure or alcohol OD for drinkers, and various ODs for drug users.

You redeemed yourself in the first half of this by implying that once someone had quit they would be allowed the benefits the rest of society gets. Is that the case? Or would someone that hadn't smoked for 30 years who contracts lung cancer be denied treatment on the fact they once smoked and that might have caused their cancer?

Chewing Tobacco and Monster Energy drinks. Going more than a day or two without either is rough.

I used to smoke like a chimney though. My god it was bad, specially when I was a cable installer. Id go through 2 packs a day doing that job. It was just terrible.

I smoke weed and drink when partying. Really only things a teenager normally does. :p I do have my limits however and at times when i'm offered a joint or a bottle,I say no so I can stay under control of myself. Really as long as you don't do anything stupid....you're good. Unless of course someone asks me where I see myself in five years

Mmm.. The only thing that I would consider myself addicted to is coffee. I try to stay away from things like parties, so I've managed to avoid most drugs and alcohol.

Not addicted to anything really, cept fags and oxygen and maybe weed.ya'll can not imagine how much I want a freaking joint right now.

Though I rarely ever drink.


Nom

Hey addiction is just Nature's way of saying 'here, have some more.'

So house burglars are addicted to bullets?