Grey Knights aren't broken...

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**Anpu42**

Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't quite understand your last post, what with the damaged quote tags and all, but as far as I can tell you're making quite a few tactical errors:

1) Marines are not really destroyed by Doom of Malantai unless you have a terrible list (i.e. a foot list) AND are bunching up. Avoid those and you're golden.

Yes, there are some situations wherein the Doom is good. But he is not really very good on the whole, and so if you can mitigate those situations, then you win. Simples.

2) Cover - cover protects you from assaulters without grenades AND from bullets. Use it. If you can't find it with your only-has-twenty-models GK army, then perhaps you're playing on a board with insufficient terrain.

3) What isn't effective about Gauss Cannon spam is the same thing that isn't effective about Ion Cannon spam for the Tau. Cover saves and 2+ armor. Here's some mathhammer:

To kill 10 Marines in cover on average is 25 Gauss Cannons, or 50 shots. If the Necrons are spending that many points on Gauss Cannons, then your tanks will be VERY VERY VERY Happy, because even Rhinos will be practically immune to his army.

What you telling me is that I am a crappy player how knows nothing, how to use tactics or cant build a list worth crap.

No! what I am saying; Some times The Most Powerful Cheese Filled Overpower Army in the World can get it’s tail handed to them by something you never thought of before. Sometimes the most Powerful Army Shows up and looses because of Bad Luck.

1] Yes one Doom of Malantai waddlyin across the board is not the problem. It is the one that Drop Pods into the center of your units that is the problem. It does cover a 13 1/2”d area on the board, that bigger than the APOC 10” Pie Plate, even if you aren’t bunched up that can cover over 1/24th of the board.

2&3] This is the 3rd time you quoted cover, I normally run Gunlines that Live in Cover. Most of the time we run 40%-60% cover on the table, but sometimes Cover is more the 6” away from each other and to maneuver you have move across the Street. I also run Guard I know how to use cover, just sometimes you can’t.

I am not quoting Mathhammer [Personally I hate Mathhammer because most people use it in a vacuum, without synergy and then it take 3 columns to show them they are wrong] I am quoting 30 years of gaming experience with I estimate a 60%+ Victory Rate, some of them against “Quote” West Point Tactical Genius “Un-Quote”. This is both on and off the Table Top. I am also having a good time, even when I get my tail handed to me, that does not happen much. So I must be doing something right

**rigeld2**

Anpu42 wrote:What you telling me is that I am a crappy player how knows nothing, how to use tactics or cant build a list worth crap.

No. What were saying is that the things you're bringing up are hardly broken.
You cited some examples of rolling a 15 or above 4 times in a row. Do you realize the likelihood of that?
You cannot use extreme examples to show an overpowered unit. I could cite multiple games where I fired literally hundreds of shots into a unit of paladins and didn't cause a single wound. That doesn't mean that paladins are overpowered.
Heck, to use the DoM example - I prodded him down and caught 4 Necron warrior units in the bubble, outside cover. (my opponent admitted he forgot about the Doom) he rolled an 8 or below 4 times, then 4 more times during his shooting phase, then rapid fired one unit of warriors into the Doom - hit 5 times, wound 5 times, I failed 4 saves. Poof.

No! what I am saying; Some times The Most Powerful Cheese Filled Overpower Army in the World can get it’s tail handed to them by something you never thought of before. Sometimes the most Powerful Army Shows up and looses because of Bad Luck.

... That is the weakest argument ever. "if I roll bad I lose, so I'm not overpowered! Njal's staff isn't stupidly powerful - if I roll a 1 or 2 your power still goes off!"

1] Yes one Doom of Malantai waddlyin across the board is not the problem. It is the one that Drop Pods into the center of your units that is the problem. It does cover a 13 1/2”d area on the board, that bigger than the APOC 10” Pie Plate, even if you aren’t bunched up that can cover over 1/24th of the board.

I've played lots of games with the Doom. When my opponent knows what's coming he avoids bunching up and uses lots of cover he's not that hard to deal with.
He's an area denial unit. He worth his points not because of the units he wounds, but because of the threat hat has to be dealt with.

2&3] This is the 3rd time you quoted cover, I normally run Gunlines that Live in Cover. Most of the time we run 40%-60% cover on the table, but sometimes Cover is more the 6” away from each other and to maneuver you have move across the Street. I also run Guard I know how to use cover, just sometimes you can’t.

As a Tyranid player I understand that cover is not a given. But pretending that it doesn't help is disingenuous. Screening units also provide cover. It's amusing that you live in cover and yet keep putting forth examples of no cover (I7 Genestealers, Doom destroying units...)

I am also having a good time, even when I get my tail handed to me, that does not happen much. So I must be doing something right

I never said you weren't having a good time. I do every time I play.

**bobamus87**

Iranna wrote:
bobamus87 wrote:GK isn't broken? And I'm the queen of England. How is S5 assault 2 "24 BS4 not cheesey? They put out more S5 than a DEVASTATOR SQUAD, granted it's less range, but who cares? They can Deep Strike!! Or an entire army being able to cause instant death in CC? Or being able to make people have one attack per guy....WHEN THEY CHARGED YOU!! Here let me take my LD check for Psychotroke oh wait, it just happens, and I'm helpless to defend against it. Just BAM 1 attack, oh wait I get +d3 attacks for Ragnar, NOPE! for that 5-10pt piece of wargear now I don't. Are you poor GK players getting nullified on "Hammerhand", and having to wound those pesky marines on a 4+ like most standard marines do? It's ok, just take rad grenades, and make a T4 marine T3 (couple with "Hammerhand" and you wound on a 2+ in CC when you don't get null'd) or make a T5 lychguard T4, and since crons can only null what's Targeting them, get off "Hammerhand" while your at it, and wound on a 3+ now...... Most armies have some kind of weakness, GK don't, say all you want about mech guard, but if you get them on the ground, it's all over but the crying, I played leafblower, It has it's disadvantages, like Necron nightfighting? I'm glad I got rid of them now. Moving right along, 20pts per man for a strike squad marine? they are 5 pts more than a grey hunter, can have S5 in CC and shooting, and did I forget to mention? Their a troops choice. GK can have +2 to reserves, S8 autocannons on the cheap, -6" from scatter when you're near those stupid servo skulls, and that's not just for you're men, no, it's for the orbital relay too, which is a S10, ap1 lance, and here's the kicker it's EVERY TURN!! I wouldn't be surprised if they F.A.Q'd in it also counts as a melta hit regardless of range. Even the next cheesiest builds from other dex's pale in comparison, wan't cheap but awesome melee with a bazillion power weapon attacks (3 attacks base, when not even charging), S4 base,(and if you stick a libby with them, do "Might of Titan" and make them S5) WS5 and I-6? take DCA's their 15pts per man, and can be a troops choice, pick up Coteaz, or do "Grand Bull****" and MAKE them a troops choice, it's you're pick of the cheese people, you want Swiss? Yours. You want Provolone? Done. That's just my 10 cents. Bottom line, when you can't even bring an army like Chaos Demons against them, chance's are, your dex is OP. GK=

Well, someone's bitter.

I disagree with quite a lot of the things that you're complaining about. For example, S5 Stormbolters (I assume then you mean Psybolt ammo) are largely regarded as a useless upgrade unless you take it on a 10-man squad. Do 6-8 S5 Ap5 shots really worry you that much? It's the Psycannons you need to watch, not the Stormbolters.

Also, very few units in the army can Deep strike; Only terminators (like all marines minus SWs) Interceptors (Like all Jump Infantry) and Strike Squads (Which are never really seen anyway).

Again, Psychotroke Grenades are limited to 3 models in the entire codex, 2 of which are seen as "not worth it" and the other is debatable. (And is actually 15pts)

Grey Knights, believe it or not, do have weaknesses; firstly, they are an incredibly elite army with a general low-model count. Also, they die just as any ordinary marines; AP1,2 and 3 weaponry is the way to go.

Eldar can also have +2 to reserves. It isn't a new phenomenon. In fact, most armies have ways to manipulate their reserve rolls.

Servo-skulls are so easy to get rid of it's almost not worth taking them; just move to within 6" of them. They also don't worl for things like the OSR.

I don't understand where you get the "3 attacks base, when not even charging" from? They only units that can do that is Terminators and Paladins with a Banner. And a model can do it if it has Falchions, but why on earth would anyone take those?

You're complaining about S4 base? Really? Reality check needed I think.

Librarians cannot make anyone WS5, only Paladins and DCult Assassins are WS5.

Only Coteaz can make Death Cults Troops and it's very easy to kill them if you can get them on foot.

I think you'll find that Chaos Daemons are more than capable of making a TAC build which can also give Grey Knights a run for their money, like Jy2's list here:

Fateweaver
Skarbrand

5x Bloodcrushers - Icon, Instrument
6x Fiends - Might
6x Fiends - Might

5x Pink Horrors - Bolt, Changeling
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Plaguebearers

16x Seekers of Slaanesh - Icon

Iranna.

So what you're telling me is only 5pts more for a guy who can ID things, DeepStrike, have power weapons standard, and S5 storm bolters is perfectly cool, and considered an "incredibly elite army with a genreal low-model count"? If you answer yes to that don't even bother responding, because you're a Matt Ward fanboy. I feel like you didn't even read what I said as well, I never even said a Librarian makes them WS5 you obviously don't know how to read parenthesis i'm guessing, and DCA's DO have 3 attacks base, 2 base, plus one for extra hand weapon. And their not a space marine, which is why S4 is stupid. And "Grand strategy" can make non-scoring units scoring, (so in all important respects "troops") but you're right, their totally legit, and not cheesy at all. Get back to me when you wake up from this dream world you're living in where playing Eldar, or Nids against GK seems like a good idea.

**Jackal**

Ok, so, nids only low AP comes from Mr Doom, so everything else is through weight of shots.
Granted it does work, but a tyranid army that has to retreat as they shoot?
Just to beat a single army?
Congratulations, now whats the general idea in a tournie?
You have tailored a list to hammer GK (in theory) but everything else is now alot harder, since you missed out those all important CC units.

Chaos daemons (again, another army i play and my main one at that)
So, we have warpquake keeping us from dropping close enough to be of use.
S5 stormbolters tearing through anything in the list (minus the grinder)
Instant death isnt an issue for once though, so thats nice.

But wait, that list you posted is hardly a shooty list is it? lol.
Skarbrand, crushers, fiends and seekers should have been a good indication of that one.

Shooting wise you have, oh, 20 horrors and kairos (who has a habbit of running away alot)
This list is simply an altered fateweaver list (and dont get me wrong, a bloody good one) but still, nowhere near shooty is it?

Flamers, bolt princes, tons of horrors, heralds in chariots, those are shooty units and it has, erm, 1 of those types in 4 very small units. (which the shots are wasted if they use bolt on a vehicle)

Edit: On a note though, i dont have massive issues with GK as its simply another "new power army" much like wolves and BA were.
Yes, they are strong, but they allways have been edging on nasty for basic gear on troops.
Points heavy, small, elite, still die like marines.
Granted a few of the pieces of wargear are a bit over the top, but its situational on how and when its used.
Draigo? (i hear too much whining about him) is another mephiston.
Yes, he is bloody strong, but he is also a tad high on points and usually is taken to make the army even smaller. (Dwing)

**Squigsquasher**

I like where this thread is going.

**TheCrazyCryptek**

bobamus87 wrote:GK isn't broken? And I'm the queen of England. How is S5 assault 2 "24 BS4 not cheesey? They put out more S5 than a DEVASTATOR SQUAD, granted it's less range, but who cares? They can Deep Strike!! Or an entire army being able to cause instant death in CC? Or being able to make people have one attack per guy....WHEN THEY CHARGED YOU!! Here let me take my LD check for Psychotroke oh wait, it just happens, and I'm helpless to defend against it. Just BAM 1 attack, oh wait I get +d3 attacks for Ragnar, NOPE! for that 5-10pt piece of wargear now I don't. Are you poor GK players getting nullified on "Hammerhand", and having to wound those pesky marines on a 4+ like most standard marines do? It's ok, just take rad grenades, and make a T4 marine T3 (couple with "Hammerhand" and you wound on a 2+ in CC when you don't get null'd) or make a T5 lychguard T4, and since crons can only null what's Targeting them, get off "Hammerhand" while your at it, and wound on a 3+ now...... Most armies have some kind of weakness, GK don't, say all you want about mech guard, but if you get them on the ground, it's all over but the crying, I played leafblower, It has it's disadvantages, like Necron nightfighting? I'm glad I got rid of them now. Moving right along, 20pts per man for a strike squad marine? they are 5 pts more than a grey hunter, can have S5 in CC and shooting, and did I forget to mention? Their a troops choice. GK can have +2 to reserves, S8 autocannons on the cheap, -6" from scatter when you're near those stupid servo skulls, and that's not just for you're men, no, it's for the orbital relay too, which is a S10, ap1 lance, and here's the kicker it's EVERY TURN!! I wouldn't be surprised if they F.A.Q'd in it also counts as a melta hit regardless of range. Even the next cheesiest builds from other dex's pale in comparison, wan't cheap but awesome melee with a bazillion power weapon attacks (3 attacks base, when not even charging), S4 base,(and if you stick a libby with them, do "Might of Titan" and make them S5) WS5 and I-6? take DCA's their 15pts per man, and can be a troops choice, pick up Coteaz, or do "Grand Bull****" and MAKE them a troops choice, it's you're pick of the cheese people, you want Swiss? Yours. You want Provolone? Done. That's just my 10 cents. Bottom line, when you can't even bring an army like Chaos Demons against them, chance's are, your dex is OP. GK=

If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times. You can beat Grey Knights bobamus, you just need to accept that ( I assum you play Space Wolves because you mentioned Ragnar) even though you play SW that you arent going to beat GK in CC. You can kill them with shooting. In fact, I would say that was far as Space Marine armies go, they are easier to kill with shooting than most.

**Torsoaril**

The only army which is screwed by GK's are Nids thats it. The rest are fine an can deal with them (An I agree its not fair that nids get screwed no army should.)
Also here is the real big seller for GK's you can buy a tournament ready list in about 5 boxes which is so cheap compared to other armies.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Bobamus, I've seen some stupid posts, but defaulting to calling anyone who disagrees with you a Mat Ward fanboy?

You don't even know all of the rules you're arguing against (Orbital Strike and Servo-Skulls) and you don't bother spacing your post properly. If you're going to insult people, at least do it properly, now it just looks sad.

As for the "can't deploy my Daemons", get real. No optimal list that I've seen includes enough Strike Squads or Interceptor Squads to pull that off and if they do they suffer against other armies. The shunt quake still relies on a number of die rolls (winning first turn and psychic tests). If someone spammed flamer-type weapons and large blast weapons and fought a Green Tide list, the Green Tide would more or less "auto-lose" as well, wouldn't they?

Completely agree with you on the psychotroke grenades though, those are silly. Incidentally, the same can be said about some things in the Space Wolf Codex.

**bobamus87**

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
bobamus87 wrote:GK isn't broken? And I'm the queen of England. How is S5 assault 2 "24 BS4 not cheesey? They put out more S5 than a DEVASTATOR SQUAD, granted it's less range, but who cares? They can Deep Strike!! Or an entire army being able to cause instant death in CC? Or being able to make people have one attack per guy....WHEN THEY CHARGED YOU!! Here let me take my LD check for Psychotroke oh wait, it just happens, and I'm helpless to defend against it. Just BAM 1 attack, oh wait I get +d3 attacks for Ragnar, NOPE! for that 5-10pt piece of wargear now I don't. Are you poor GK players getting nullified on "Hammerhand", and having to wound those pesky marines on a 4+ like most standard marines do? It's ok, just take rad grenades, and make a T4 marine T3 (couple with "Hammerhand" and you wound on a 2+ in CC when you don't get null'd) or make a T5 lychguard T4, and since crons can only null what's Targeting them, get off "Hammerhand" while your at it, and wound on a 3+ now...... Most armies have some kind of weakness, GK don't, say all you want about mech guard, but if you get them on the ground, it's all over but the crying, I played leafblower, It has it's disadvantages, like Necron nightfighting? I'm glad I got rid of them now. Moving right along, 20pts per man for a strike squad marine? they are 5 pts more than a grey hunter, can have S5 in CC and shooting, and did I forget to mention? Their a troops choice. GK can have +2 to reserves, S8 autocannons on the cheap, -6" from scatter when you're near those stupid servo skulls, and that's not just for you're men, no, it's for the orbital relay too, which is a S10, ap1 lance, and here's the kicker it's EVERY TURN!! I wouldn't be surprised if they F.A.Q'd in it also counts as a melta hit regardless of range. Even the next cheesiest builds from other dex's pale in comparison, wan't cheap but awesome melee with a bazillion power weapon attacks (3 attacks base, when not even charging), S4 base,(and if you stick a libby with them, do "Might of Titan" and make them S5) WS5 and I-6? take DCA's their 15pts per man, and can be a troops choice, pick up Coteaz, or do "Grand Bull****" and MAKE them a troops choice, it's you're pick of the cheese people, you want Swiss? Yours. You want Provolone? Done. That's just my 10 cents. Bottom line, when you can't even bring an army like Chaos Demons against them, chance's are, your dex is OP. GK=

If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times. You can beat Grey Knights bobamus, you just need to accept that ( I assum you play Space Wolves because you mentioned Ragnar) even though you play SW that you arent going to beat GK in CC. You can kill them with shooting. In fact, I would say that was far as Space Marine armies go, they are easier to kill with shooting than most.

I agree, I never said I couldn't beat them, all I said was I thought it was ridiculous how badly a piece of wargear can break melee,

and I have beaten them in melee, quite easily I might add, if psychotroke don't make it completely unbalanced

**Shadowbrand**

I know it won't change the outcome of this discussion.

But Grey Knights bleed.

If it bleeds we can kill it.

**bobamus87**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Bobamus, I've seen some stupid posts, but defaulting to calling anyone who disagrees with you a Mat Ward fanboy?

You don't even know all of the rules you're arguing against (Orbital Strike and Servo-Skulls) and you don't bother spacing your post properly. If you're going to insult people, at least do it properly, now it just looks sad.

As for the "can't deploy my Daemons", get real. No optimal list that I've seen includes enough Strike Squads or Interceptor Squads to pull that off and if they do they suffer against other armies. The shunt quake still relies on a number of die rolls (winning first turn and psychic tests). If someone spammed flamer-type weapons and large blast weapons and fought a Green Tide list, the Green Tide would more or less "auto-lose" as well, wouldn't they?

Completely agree with you on the psychotroke grenades though, those are silly. Incidentally, the same can be said about some things in the Space Wolf Codex.

You're taking what I said completely out of context, I didn't point blank call him a Matt Ward fanboy, I said if you (speaking in generalities)

TRULY believe that 5pts more for a strike squad marine than a grey hunter is perfectly cool, and balanced, THEN you are a Matt Ward fanboy, (and you're right, I didn't space it properly my fault on that one.)

and once again, I never said, "can't deploy demons" I'm fully aware of what warp quake can do, all I said was don't bother showing up.

**Formosa**

bobamus87 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Bobamus, I've seen some stupid posts, but defaulting to calling anyone who disagrees with you a Mat Ward fanboy?

You don't even know all of the rules you're arguing against (Orbital Strike and Servo-Skulls) and you don't bother spacing your post properly. If you're going to insult people, at least do it properly, now it just looks sad.

As for the "can't deploy my Daemons", get real. No optimal list that I've seen includes enough Strike Squads or Interceptor Squads to pull that off and if they do they suffer against other armies. The shunt quake still relies on a number of die rolls (winning first turn and psychic tests). If someone spammed flamer-type weapons and large blast weapons and fought a Green Tide list, the Green Tide would more or less "auto-lose" as well, wouldn't they?

Completely agree with you on the psychotroke grenades though, those are silly. Incidentally, the same can be said about some things in the Space Wolf Codex.

You're taking what I said completely out of context, I didn't point blank call him a Matt Ward fanboy, I said if you (speaking in generalities)

TRULY believe that 5pts more for a strike squad marine than a grey hunter is perfectly cool, and balanced, THEN you are a Matt Ward fanboy, (and you're right, I didn't space it properly my fault on that one.)

and once again, I never said, "can't deploy demons" I'm fully aware of what warp quake can do, all I said was don't bother showing up.

If you think a grey hunter is should be 1pt LESS than a space marine tac then your a phill kelly fan boy... see no one like it lol

But on topic, strike sqauds are too cheap, so is almost the entire GK dex, however another person on this forum pointed out somthing that i agreed with... will they be in the next edition.. and then 7th... 8th??
GK ar a book built to last another decade of neglect, we will all look back at GK the way we look at 3.5 chaos, some of it was obscene at the time but is king of par for the course now.

**motyak**

bob you've done what a lot of people have done and created a 'superlist' in your argument of why GK are OP. You have said +2 to reserves, yet still mentioned troop DCAs, you don't have the points right for atleast one part of your argument, and your 'S5 shooting' bit doesn't mention the points cost. You can't have armies full of both DCAs and warpquake marines (enough of them that daemon players struggle, anyway).

While they do have balance problems as an army, and I'm not denying that, people need to stop making arguments which run along the lines of 'the troop purifiers are broken because all the warpquake means daemons autolose and when you can take big units of 10 man paladins you just can't kill anything' because you can't have them all in the same army effectively. Complain about purifiers and cleansing flame's impact on hordes? Sure, thats a legit complaint. Have an issue with paladins and how low in KP a draigo army can be? Again, sure, its a problem. Complain about henchmen lists where they have good anti-MEQ counterattack/assault units in DCAs as well as access to purifiers for counterhorde work and henchmen for cheap objective grabbers, so they basically have all bases covered? Also a good argument.

But please people, stop complaining about them all as if they exist in the same army every time. You can't have a warpquake-purifierspam-paladin heavy-henchmen everywhere army list. It just doesn't happen.

**Janthkin**

As should be apparent from the last page alone, opinions differe, and emotions run a bit high. We've had plenty of Grey Knight discussion of late; let's leave it alone, at least until the new rule set comes out.