Guy runs for State Rep in Oklahoma, likes what the Nazi Iron Cross stands for.

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**d-usa**

Melissia wrote:That guy's a total skinhead...
hotsauceman1 wrote:Welll mexico is below us, if it fall apart we will get a whole lot more immigrants.

Well at the moment, immigration from Mexico, both illegal and legal, are at all time lows.

But you won't get Republicans admitting that, it plays against their "we hate dem wetbacks!" political message.

Obama has deported more Hispanics than Bush, but clearly he is involved in a plan to hand the southern states to Mexico.

**Orlanth**

dogma wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Easiest answer for him would be to make his own. Do your own pattern of a teutonic cross and thus avoid all issues.

Yeah, no one would ever recognize anything similar to a Teutonic Cross.

But only the ignorami would recognise it as an exclusively 'Nazi' symbol.
Does that include you?
I sincerely hope not.
The Teutonic Cross is very 'Germanic', so is the Warhammer Empire.
Otherwise we might as well include caveats like 'no Jews were harmed in the production of this steam tank.'
Ignorance need not rule, even in popular cutlure.

**d-usa**

The German military still uses a version of the Teutonic cross, and they are hardly pro-nazi.

**Dreadwinter**

This guy just looks like a douche. Even without the swastika and cross.

**dogma**

Orlanth wrote:
dogma wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Easiest answer for him would be to make his own. Do your own pattern of a teutonic cross and thus avoid all issues.

Yeah, no one would ever recognize anything similar to a Teutonic Cross.

But only the ignorami would recognise it as an exclusively 'Nazi' symbol.
Does that include you?
I sincerely hope not.

Orlanth wrote:
Easiest answer for him would be to make his own. Do your own pattern of a teutonic cross and thus avoid all issues.

If the Teutonic Cross is an issue, then anyone that would recognize it would take issue with its depiction; because the recognition of it is based on its depiction.

Orlanth wrote:
Ignorance need not rule, even in popular cutlure.

It doesn't need to, but it does anyway.

**Orlanth**

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Easiest answer for him would be to make his own. Do your own pattern of a teutonic cross and thus avoid all issues.

If the Teutonic Cross is an issue, then anyone that would recognize it would take issue with its depiction; because the recognition of it is based on its depiction.

The Teutonic Cross of itself isn't an issue. Wearing one with the swastika in the middle is, as is wearing one with a black or field grey uniform.

WW1 Germans can possibly be misidentified by Nazis, however Empire cosplay is another matter.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Ignorance need not rule, even in popular cutlure.

It doesn't need to, but it does anyway.

And normally such reactions can be defused with just a little foresight.
Hence searching for an Iron Cross without a swastika.

**Monster Rain**

Generally speaking, unless you're seriously into ancient far-eastern mysticism, and even then you'll have some explaining to do, anything with a swastika on it is going to cause you no end of grief.

**Mannahnin**

If it walks like a skinhead douchebag, and talks like a skinhead douchebag, it's probably not a duck.

**d-usa**

Monster Rain wrote:Generally speaking, unless you're seriously into ancient far-eastern mysticism, and even then you'll have some explaining to do, anything with a swastika on it is going to cause you no end of grief.

In Oklahoma you may get away with it if you are native-American, since they also used it historically.

Heck, the 45th Infantry Division even used it as their unit insignia prior to WW2 due to the native-American influence in the region:

But even the US military knew better than to go the "Sure, Hitler perverted it, but the swastika has a long and glorious tradition" route. Sometimes, once something is tainted, it is just ruined forever. I think pencil mustaches should make a comeback, but Hitler ruined that as well.

**Monster Rain**

d-usa wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Generally speaking, unless you're seriously into ancient far-eastern mysticism, and even then you'll have some explaining to do, anything with a swastika on it is going to cause you no end of grief.

In Oklahoma you may get away with it if you are native-American, since they also used it historically.

I'm not sure why, but that just blew my mind.

**Orlanth**

d-usa wrote:
But even the US military knew better than to go the "Sure, Hitler perverted it, but the swastika has a long and glorious tradition" route. Sometimes, once something is tainted, it is just ruined forever. I think pencil mustaches should make a comeback, but Hitler ruined that as well.

Not entirely tainted. Tainted in the western mindset only.

Buddhist swastikas often adorn tombstones, monuments and of course buddha statues.

**d-usa**

Orlanth wrote:
d-usa wrote:
But even the US military knew better than to go the "Sure, Hitler perverted it, but the swastika has a long and glorious tradition" route. Sometimes, once something is tainted, it is just ruined forever. I think pencil mustaches should make a comeback, but Hitler ruined that as well.

Not entirely tainted. Tainted in the western mindset only.

True, should have clarified.

**Hordini**

d-usa wrote:The German military still uses a version of the Teutonic cross, and they are hardly pro-nazi.

Don't they still call it an eisernes Kreuz? Or do they only call it a Bundeswehr Kreuz? I remember reading an article where some Germans were pushing to bring the Iron Cross medal back, since there was no equivalent medal for bravery at the time, but instead they introduced the Bundeswehr Cross of Honor for Valor.

**Melissia**

Eisernes kreuz = iron cross.

These days, the iron crosses in Germany use an oak leaf cluster instead of the swastika.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

And that is the honor cross that replaced the iron cross.

**Hordini**

Melissia wrote:Eisernes kreuz = iron cross.

These days, the iron crosses in Germany use an oak leaf cluster instead of the swastika.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I know what eisernes Kreuz means, and what you posted isn't one. That's the Bundeswehr Cross of Honor for Valor, AKA das Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr für Tapferkeit.

I'm asking if the Germans still refer to the Bundeswehr insignia as an eisernes Kreuz, or just a Bundeswehr Kreuz (or something else).

Edit - You edited your post as I was making mine, I see you labeled the new medal. As far as I know, there aren't any new Iron Crosses post-WWII. All of them dating from WWII have a swastika on them, and after WWII they stopped being awarded.

**d-usa**

Melissia wrote:Eisernes kreuz = iron cross.

These days, the iron crosses in Germany use an oak leaf cluster instead of the swastika.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

They did enough to "change it up" from the previous incarnation though.

I think all Iron Cross winners from WW2 were issued replacement Iron Crosses with the oak leaf clusters.

The new one is still an "iron cross" in shape, but the insert and the change from silver/iron to gold made it different enough as well and helps move it past the taint of the WW2 version.

**Melissia**

As I said, that's the replacement Honor Cross.

**d-usa**

Melissia wrote:As I said, that's the replacement Honor Cross.

True, I was just commenting in the spirit of "even the Germans knew that they cannot simply reissue the WW1 version because the WW2 version ruined it" so they changed it up a pit.

Heck, if the guy wore that Iron Cross instead of the WW2 version he would get less flack for it. Although as a German citizen I would probably punch him for wearing a military award that he didn't earn.

I wonder if he ever bothered to join the military to actually earn an award.

**Hordini**

d-usa wrote:

I think all Iron Cross winners from WW2 were issued replacement Iron Crosses with the oak leaf clusters.

Are you sure about that? The Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves was a separate (higher) award, and I've seen tons of photos of medals with swastikas, but I've never seen one with oak leaves in place of the swastika. I just figured after the war they weren't allowed to wear the medals anymore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:Heck, if the guy wore that Iron Cross instead of the WW2 version he would get less flack for it. Although as a German citizen I would probably punch him for wearing a military award that he didn't earn.

Yeah, besides the fact that the dude is an idiot for wearing a WWII-era Iron Cross with a swastika, even if he had a WWI version I would have thought it was pretty disrespectful that he was wearing a medal he didn't earn.

**Weltenwolf**

Hordini wrote:Don't they still call it an eisernes Kreuz? Or do they only call it a Bundeswehr Kreuz? I remember reading an article where some Germans were pushing to bring the Iron Cross medal back, since there was no equivalent medal for bravery at the time, but instead they introduced the Bundeswehr Cross of Honor for Valor.

Yes, we still call it iron cross / eisernes Kreuz. The name hasn't changed, only the look.

Hordini wrote:Are you sure about that? The Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves was a separate (higher) award, and I've seen tons of photos of medals with swastikas, but I've never seen one with oak leaves in place of the swastika. I just figured after the war they weren't allowed to wear the medals anymore.

In 1957 germany made a law which allowed veterans to wear their earned medals in public (especially iron cross & knights cross) if they got a version without the Hakenkreuz or other symbols directly associated with the third reich (like the double sig runes of the SS). Iron / knights crosses got oak leaves instead of the Hakenkreuz, so d-usa got it right.

**Hordini**

Weltenwolf wrote:
Hordini wrote:Don't they still call it an eisernes Kreuz? Or do they only call it a Bundeswehr Kreuz? I remember reading an article where some Germans were pushing to bring the Iron Cross medal back, since there was no equivalent medal for bravery at the time, but instead they introduced the Bundeswehr Cross of Honor for Valor.

Yes, we still call it iron cross / eisernes Kreuz. The name hasn't changed, only the look.

Hordini wrote:Are you sure about that? The Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves was a separate (higher) award, and I've seen tons of photos of medals with swastikas, but I've never seen one with oak leaves in place of the swastika. I just figured after the war they weren't allowed to wear the medals anymore.

In 1957 germany made a law which allowed veterans to wear their earned medals in public (especially iron cross & knights cross) if they got a version without the Hakenkreuz or other symbols directly associated with the third reich (like the double sig runes of the SS). Iron / knights crosses got oak leaves instead of the Hakenkreuz, so d-usa got it right.

Cool, thanks for the clarification, Weltenwolf. I figured they still called it an eisernes Kreuz in the Bundeswehr, I just wasn't sure (the military is a topic I usually don't bring up with Germans). I guess the oak leaves replacing the swastika is something different than the actual Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves award. That's nice that they allowed them to do that, seems like a good compromise.

**d-usa**

I think the only WW2 awards that are no longer allowed to be worn are awards that had directly to do with the Nazi-party.

**LoneLictor**

Just to make sure, there's no one here who thinks he's not racist, right?

**Hordini**

LoneLictor wrote:Just to make sure, there's no one here who thinks he's not racist, right?

I don't know for sure if he's racist, although I'm certainly not ruling it out. Judging from the article and the video though, at the very least he definitely seems like an idiot. It's quite possible that he's being serious and does only admire the positive aspects of the iron cross (courage, honor, valor, etc. etc.), and is just too dumb to realize that that doesn't undo the horrible, racist associations that the Nazis gave the medal, and doesn't realize that the vast majority of people will associate the medal, particularly the WWII-era version with a swastika, with the Nazis first and foremost.

Not that it really makes that much difference at this point whether he actually is racist or not, since I don't think there's any way he's going to actually win the election.

**Frazzled**

d-usa wrote:So just to meet my weekly quota of sensationalist stories, I present this gem from my state:

A candidate for state representative says the swastika he's wearing in a snapshot was part of his Halloween costume.

However, the replica of a Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross awarded to German Nazi heroes on the wall behind him is there because he likes what it stands for, said Republican candidate Rodney Hiebert, 42, of Taloga.

“Traditionally it represents honor and dignity, which frankly is something this country can use more of,” Hiebert said. He is running for House District 59, which includes Kingfisher, Blaine, Canadian, Dewey, Major and Woodward counties.

He said he's not circulating a campaign photograph to counter the one of him wearing a swastika.

Hiebert faces incumbent Rep. Mike Sanders, 36, R-Kingfisher. The race will be decided Tuesday since no Democrats are running.

Sanders said Hiebert wore the swastika the day he filed as a candidate at the state Capitol, although was hesitant say anything critical about his opponent's choice to wear it.

“We live in America, and everyone has the right to put their name on the ballot,” Sanders said.

Hiebert said he is not a racist. He said people of American Indian descent help in his campaign, and he believes more history about indigenous Oklahomans should be taught in schools. He also believes Spanish language classes should be eliminated, and there is no need to incorporate more black history into teachers' lesson plans, he said.

“Mexico is a Third World country and Spain is economically folding,” Hiebert said. “I don't see any reason why our young people need to waste their time learning Spanish.”

Sanders is seeking his third term as state representative. He is employed at his family's business, Sanders Funeral Home in Kingfisher. He earned a bachelor's degree in history and political science from Oklahoma Christian University.

He began working on political campaigns at a young age, including the 2000 campaign for President George W. Bush. Under the Bush administration, he served as director of interns at the White House.

He later served as deputy chief of staff for rural development for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. From 1999 to 2003, he served on the Council for Small Business for Gov. Frank Keating.

Hiebert said he blames incumbents for the problems in state government, and will serve only one term if elected. He's not accepting campaign donations, because he doesn't want to be beholden to any special interest groups, he said.

In the past, Hiebert has worked as roughneck in the oil field, as a nursing home aide, and has farmed. He said he's not currently employed because he's focusing on the race.

If elected, he said he plans to research the state lottery's contribution to education, concentrate on legislation that reduces crime and support measures that would benefit oil producers and reduce government spending.

Seriously, if you like the Iron Cross so much then maybe at least you could wear a World War 1 version without the swastika. Although I am sure he could find a military award that stand for 'honor & dignity' that doesn't come from a country & time period like Nazi Germany. But what do I know...

Oh jeez. Free speech means he can run and say what he wants. It also means we can point at him and laugh nelson style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIrhVo1WA78

Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:I used to have a wallet ith the iron cross. Its more or less a "Tough Guy" Biker kinda symbol now. The problem is that particular one he is wearing has the swastika on it.

No. The problem is my ancestors lost lives killing guys who had those. Time to take up the family occupation?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:If it walks like a skinhead douchebag, and talks like a skinhead douchebag, it's probably not a duck.

Our friendly Viking moderator has the way of it.

**LoneLictor**

Hordini wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:Just to make sure, there's no one here who thinks he's not racist, right?

I don't know for sure if he's racist, although I'm certainly not ruling it out. Judging from the article and the video though, at the very least he definitely seems like an idiot. It's quite possible that he's being serious and does only admire the positive aspects of the iron cross (courage, honor, valor, etc. etc.), and is just too dumb to realize that that doesn't undo the horrible, racist associations that the Nazis gave the medal, and doesn't realize that the vast majority of people will associate the medal, particularly the WWII-era version with a swastika, with the Nazis first and foremost.

Not that it really makes that much difference at this point whether he actually is racist or not, since I don't think there's any way he's going to actually win the election.

Hiebert said he is not a racist. He said people of American Indian descent help in his campaign, and he believes more history about indigenous Oklahomans should be taught in schools. He also believes Spanish language classes should be eliminated, and there is no need to incorporate more black history into teachers' lesson plans, he said.

“Mexico is a Third World country and Spain is economically folding,” Hiebert said. “I don't see any reason why our young people need to waste their time learning Spanish.”

Sounds pretty racist to me.

**Hordini**

LoneLictor wrote:

Hiebert said he is not a racist. He said people of American Indian descent help in his campaign, and he believes more history about indigenous Oklahomans should be taught in schools. He also believes Spanish language classes should be eliminated, and there is no need to incorporate more black history into teachers' lesson plans, he said.

“Mexico is a Third World country and Spain is economically folding,” Hiebert said. “I don't see any reason why our young people need to waste their time learning Spanish.”

Sounds pretty racist to me.

It sounds pretty stupid, but I'm not sure how that quote alone is proof of racism. It certainly could be heading in that direction, but I don't think saying those things on their own necessarily makes someone racist. He thinks more native-American history should be taught and doesn't think more black history should be taught. He didn't say that black history shouldn't be taught, so maybe that means he just thinks enough black history is being taught already and more isn't needed, but not enough native-American history is so that should be increased? If he was in support of more "white history" being taught or something like that, then that would be a little more telling.

Plenty of non-racist people don't think foreign language classes are important and that people shouldn't waste their time on them. They're wrong, but that doesn't make them racist.

Note that I'm not defending the guy or saying that he definitely isn't racist. I think there's a good chance he is racist, I just don't think what he's said so far is definitive proof of that. It is proof of him having extremely poor judgement though.

**Ouze**

He should have said the one he was wearing was part of his halloween costume, and the one on the wall behind him was because he's really into Black Templars.

**Inquisitor Ehrenstein**

Manchu wrote:So this is the guy who keeps posting here about his Nazi-themed IG army!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I was going to order reproduction iron crosses for Warhammer costumes, but the only ones I could find were the WWII variant.
http://www.milprom.com/German/medals/index.htm

Less than halfway down the page.

Thanks for the link.

However, I am going to have to set straight the first comment...

http://en.sturmkrieg.com/Aschknas

http://en.sturmkrieg.com/Ilsa_Grünstein

Spoiler:

**sebster**

Hordini wrote:I don't know for sure if he's racist, although I'm certainly not ruling it out. Judging from the article and the video though, at the very least he definitely seems like an idiot. It's quite possible that he's being serious and does only admire the positive aspects of the iron cross (courage, honor, valor, etc. etc.), and is just too dumb to realize that that doesn't undo the horrible, racist associations that the Nazis gave the medal, and doesn't realize that the vast majority of people will associate the medal, particularly the WWII-era version with a swastika, with the Nazis first and foremost.

He's racist, he's obviously racist. There's hardly a shortage of militaries with symbols for honour that aren't directly tied to the Nazis. Hell, there's plenty of German medals, including Iron Crosses, that don't have swastikas on them.

Also, he's a pretty big douche for wearing a medal he didn't win for actually being brave.

Not that it really makes that much difference at this point whether he actually is racist or not, since I don't think there's any way he's going to actually win the election.

Yeah, it's really important to point out that guys like this run fairly often, and lose. Society has basically moved past his kind of overt racism on the whole, so that while there's still enough out there to produce a regular stream of crazies running for political glory, it takes a freak circumstance for them to even have a chance at winning the Republican primary.

I think the bigger issue is that, well, I wrote Republican there for a reason. When crazies like this guy do run you don't even have to look to see which party they run for, there's always an R there. Here's a list of overtly racist people who've recently aimed for political office;

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/06/05/county-gop-committee-wants-to-oust-former-skinhead/ - a guy who's actually a member of several white supremacist groups got onto a Republican county committee with one vote - his own.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/taco-protesting-white-supremacist-burns-cross-runs-sheriff-idaho - a KKK member ran for sheriff in Idaho.
http://forward.com/articles/156730/wyoming-candidate-posts-anti-semitic-video/ - in a weird piece of oldie timie racism this Wyoming senate candidate ranted about Jews in an on-line video.

It's worth noting in every case that the Republican leadership moved against these guys as quickly as possible, and where proper elections were held these guys got curb-stomped. So credit to the Republican party and it's voting base for that, however they still need to take that next step and start thinking about why these guys keep getting drawn to their party, like moths to a flame. They need to start being honest about the race-baiting games they play, and the kind of people it attracts into the party.