Guy runs for State Rep in Oklahoma, likes what the Nazi Iron Cross stands for.

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**hotsauceman1**

Frazzled wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:I used to have a wallet ith the iron cross. Its more or less a "Tough Guy" Biker kinda symbol now. The problem is that particular one he is wearing has the swastika on it.

No. The problem is my ancestors lost lives killing guys who had those. Time to take up the family occupation?

Um what? re you saying you should kill me? The Iron cross isnt a nazi symbol much anymore. or at all. Alot more people see it as a symbol of rebellion. Thats why they sell jewelry with it as places like spencers gifts. Minus the swastika ofcourse

**Frazzled**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:I used to have a wallet ith the iron cross. Its more or less a "Tough Guy" Biker kinda symbol now. The problem is that particular one he is wearing has the swastika on it.

No. The problem is my ancestors lost lives killing guys who had those. Time to take up the family occupation?

Um what? re you saying you should kill me? The Iron cross isnt a nazi symbol much anymore. or at all. Alot more people see it as a symbol of rebellion. Thats why they sell jewelry with it as places like spencers gifts. Minus the swastika ofcourse

Maybe you're an [EDITED BY FRAZZLED BECAUSE REDS8N IS RIGHT]? I'm not judging you. There's all kinds of reasons that people are [INSERT NEW HEP CAT PHRASE HERE].
And yes its still a symbol tied with Nazi Germany. Hanging out buying gak at Spencer's gifts doesn't mean, well gak. (wow Spencer's gifts is still around? Spencer's- taking fat vaguely smelly teenage boys' money for 40 years)
Blah blah Swastika Native American / Buddhist blah blah. The people wearing them aren't native American and aren't Buddhists.

Outside of a historical context (reenactor, collect all kinds of medals) there's no reason to collect something that was part of a brutal psycho killer regime. Especially if you're US citizen.
Edit; that was too harsh.

I will say, don't wear one around someone proud of their Russian or Polish heritage.

**reds8n**

Whilst I broadly agree with your sentiments, at least with regards to what the symbol commonly stands for, if we could dial it back a wee bit with regards to the name calling it'd keep t'ings moving along more sweetly.

Obliged

**dogma**

Monster Rain wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Generally speaking, unless you're seriously into ancient far-eastern mysticism, and even then you'll have some explaining to do, anything with a swastika on it is going to cause you no end of grief.

In Oklahoma you may get away with it if you are native-American, since they also used it historically.

I'm not sure why, but that just blew my mind.

See, that's actually comedy gold because a Nazi would take umbrage.

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I may as well say it before anybody else does, but the Iron Cross, like a lot of things, was corrupted by the Nazis.
I may be wrong, and no doubt somebody will correct me, but I'm sure the Iron Cross goes back to Teutonic Knights and the Baltic crusades. It being a sort of 'muscular christianity.
Also, the death's head symbol the SS used was Fredrick the great's honour guard? Or Medal for bravery??

Anyway, D-USA is right, if he wanted to use a symbol of honour, why not the Victoria Cross. I was going to mention MOH, but isn't it a federal offence for a non-winner of the MOH to wear it unless you're a relative of the winner??

I don't think the recipients or relatives of recipients of the VC would be very happy with it being used as a political symbol in some random guys campaign. It is a symbol of courage above and beyond the call of duty, has this guy ever performed any acts of bravery which qualify him for it?

Mind you, the same could be said of the Iron Cross and biker groups.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

And yet, the funny thing is, people walk around with the hammer and sickle on t-shirts, Chairman Mao on t-shirts, and of course, goold old Che G, but nobody bats an eyelid.

Maybe there is a left-wing conspiracy

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:And yet, the funny thing is, people walk around with the hammer and sickle on t-shirts, Chairman Mao on t-shirts, and of course, goold old Che G, but nobody bats an eyelid.

Maybe there is a left-wing conspiracy

Well the thing is those actually are political symbols, or at least have become symbols since their death. I wear a Che t-shirt because I agree with some of his political ideas, such as universal healthcare and education and also his conviction to be willing to fight (and die) for these ideas. Of course he also did stuff which I do not agree with (concentration camps and executions) but you don't have to agree with everything someone did to think they're a hero or a good role model.

If they're being worn simply as a fashion statement though, that pisses me off. Still there's always the chance that these hipsters wander into one of the Cuban neighbourhoods in Miami in their Che t-shirt.

**Frazzled**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:And yet, the funny thing is, people walk around with the hammer and sickle on t-shirts, Chairman Mao on t-shirts, and of course, goold old Che G, but nobody bats an eyelid.

Maybe there is a left-wing conspiracy

Yep.

**Weltenwolf**

Frazzled wrote:
And yes its still a symbol tied with Nazi Germany. Hanging out buying gak at Spencer's gifts doesn't mean, well gak. (wow Spencer's gifts is still around? Spencer's- taking fat vaguely smelly teenage boys' money for 40 years)

The Iron Cross was donated in 1813 by King Friedrich Wilhem III. of Prussia, renewed in 1870 by King (later becoming the first Emperor) Wilhem I. and 1914 by Emperor Wilhelm II.. This was long before the NSDAP was even founded.
The Iron Cross is a symbol for prussian and german military valour, sacrifice & duty beyond the normal service. You shouldn't reduce it to the 6 years of use during WW2. Even then it stand for its original usage and not for the ideology of the nazis.

Iron Cross on wiki

The idiot running around with a swastika adorned knights cross is just that: A racist idiot, who hasn't earned it and tries to use it for his own dumb political views. It's not the fault of the iron cross that idiots try to use it.

Frazzled wrote:
No. The problem is my ancestors lost lives killing guys who had those. Time to take up the family occupation?

So, should i warn middle, eastern and northern europe that your going to pay us a visit? You know, germans weren't the only ones who got iron crosses. There were austrians, dutch, norwegian, danes, romanians and others who got german military awards during WW2. But i'm going to assume that you just made a sarcastic statement to give an edge to your post.

**Frazzled**

The Iron Cross was donated in 1813 by King Friedrich Wilhem III. of Prussia, renewed in 1870 by King (later becoming the first Emperor) Wilhem I. and 1914 by Emperor Wilhelm II.. This was long before the NSDAP was even founded.

The Iron Cross is a symbol for prussian and german military valour, sacrifice & duty beyond the normal service.
So what? Its also part of a murderous regime that thought it was a good idea to turn the USSR into Greater Germany, and help the indigenous populations by murderizing them.
Of those concerned that this is symbol of German military pride As the immortatl bard once said: feth that.

You shouldn't reduce it to the 6 years of use during WW2. Even then it stand for its original usage and not for the ideology of the nazis.

Too bad. Next time don’t elect Austrian painters and have your generals collude in his rising to power and killing lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people. Sorry, collectively your mancard is revoked until you find a cure for cancer or a longer lasting lightbulb. The Porsche 928 was a nice step in that direction.
NOTE: regardless of the merits or your argument, he also had a swastika correct? He's not pining away for Otto von Bismark.

So, should i warn middle, eastern and northern europe that your going to pay us a visit? You know, germans weren't the only ones who got iron crosses. There were austrians, dutch, norwegian, danes, romanians and others who got german military awards during WW2. But i'm going to assume that you just made a sarcastic statement to give an edge to your post.

Sophistry. There would have been no supporters without the killer regime in the first place. Quit supporting a killer Nazi regime. Thinking anything was good or honorable from that time is both sad and pathetic.

**purplefood**

Well...

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:Quit supporting a killer Nazi regime.

That would have endangered their lives, and I suspect they valued them more than they valued those of others; and why shouldn't they?

**Frazzled**

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Quit supporting a killer Nazi regime.

That would have endangered their lives, and I suspect they valued them more than they valued those of others; and why shouldn't they?

I am referring to the poster. This is not applicable, unless the Space Nazis have already landed, in which case its time to sound the Horn of Great Wiener Dog Summoning, and unleash Dachshundskrieg.

Or nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

**Iur_tae_mont**

Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Quit supporting a killer Nazi regime.

That would have endangered their lives, and I suspect they valued them more than they valued those of others; and why shouldn't they?

I am referring to the poster. This is not applicable, unless the Space Nazis have already landed, in which case its time to sound the Horn of Great Wiener Dog Summoning, and unleash Dachshundskrieg.

Or nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

My one good idea for the week.

Nuclear Powered Dachshunds. let God sort them out.

**Jihadin**

Recipients of the Knight’s Cross with Oak-Leaves, Swords and Diamonds

Date, Name,
Branch

15 July 1941
Werner Mölders
Air

28 January 1942
Adolf Galland
Air

August 1942
Gordon Gollob
Air

2 September 1942
Hans Joachim Marseille
Air

16 September 1942
Hermann Graf
Air

March 1943
Erwin Rommel
Army

9 August 1943
Wolfgang Luth
U boats

19 October 1943
Walter Nowotny
Air

14 December 1943
Adalbert Schulz
Army

29 March 1944
Hans Ulrich Rudel
Air

15 April 1944
Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz
Army

19 April 1944
Herbert Otto Gille
SS

April 1944
Hans Hube
Army

19 July 1944
Albert Kesselring
Army*

31 July 1944
Helmut Lent
Air

6 August 1944
Josef Dietrich
SS

17 August 1944
Walter Model
Army

25 August 1944
Erich Hartmann
Air

31 August 1944
Hermann Balck
Army

19 September 1944
Hermann Bernhard Ramcke
Army

9 October 1944
Hauptmann Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer
Air

24 November 1944
Albrecht Brandi
U boats

1 January 1945
Ferdinand Schorner
Army

18 February 1945
Hasso von Manteuffel
Army

18 March 1945
Theodor Tolsdorf
Army

15 April 1945
Dr Karl Mauss
Army

8 May 1945
Dietrich von Saucken
Army

I do not think this caliber of an award was taking from these guys. Some you know some you don't. I do know one is the highest scoring ace in the world. 352 aireal kills

**Frazzled**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Quit supporting a killer Nazi regime.

That would have endangered their lives, and I suspect they valued them more than they valued those of others; and why shouldn't they?

I am referring to the poster. This is not applicable, unless the Space Nazis have already landed, in which case its time to sound the Horn of Great Wiener Dog Summoning, and unleash Dachshundskrieg.

Or nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

My one good idea for the week.

Nuclear Powered Dachshunds. let God sort them out.

We will set you high in our councils Iur_tae_mont.

**Ahtman**

A Town Called Malus wrote:I wear a Che t-shirt because I agree with some of his political ideas, such as universal healthcare and education and also his conviction to be willing to fight (and die) for these ideas. Of course he also did stuff which I do not agree with (concentration camps and executions) but you don't have to agree with everything someone did to think they're a hero or a good role model.

You know there are people who support those things that didn't kill a bunch of people and advocate the killing of a bunch of people to achieve their political goals right? I always found it odd that people would try and associate themselves with him and at the same time distance themselves from him. Would you wear an Osama Bin Laden T-Shirt and call him a hero and say that you liked some of the things he stood for but didn't like the advocation of the killing of others? No no, the thing is is that Che he is a popular faux political celebrity. It isn't hard to find other left leaning people that weren't murderer's, but they make for less compelling T-Shirts.

**Frazzled**

Ahtman wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:I wear a Che t-shirt because I agree with some of his political ideas, such as universal healthcare and education and also his conviction to be willing to fight (and die) for these ideas. Of course he also did stuff which I do not agree with (concentration camps and executions) but you don't have to agree with everything someone did to think they're a hero or a good role model.

You know there are people who support those things that didn't kill a bunch of people and advocate the killing of a bunch of people to achieve their political goals right? I always found it odd that people would try and associate themselves with him and at the same time distance themselves from him. Would you wear an Osama Bin Laden T-Shirt and call him a hero and say that you liked some of the things he stood for but didn't like the advocation of the killing of others? No no, the thing is is that Che he is a popular faux political celebrity. It isn't hard to find other left leaning people that weren't murderer's, but they make for less compelling T-Shirts.

Exactly.

**A Town Called Malus**

Ahtman wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:I wear a Che t-shirt because I agree with some of his political ideas, such as universal healthcare and education and also his conviction to be willing to fight (and die) for these ideas. Of course he also did stuff which I do not agree with (concentration camps and executions) but you don't have to agree with everything someone did to think they're a hero or a good role model.

You know there are people who support those things that didn't kill a bunch of people and advocate the killing of a bunch of people to achieve their political goals right? I always found it odd that people would try and associate themselves with him and at the same time distance themselves from him. Would you wear an Osama Bin Laden T-Shirt and call him a hero and say that you liked some of the things he stood for but didn't like the advocation of the killing of others? No no, the thing is is that Che he is a popular faux political celebrity. It isn't hard to find other left leaning people that weren't murderer's, but they make for less compelling T-Shirts.

I can't think of anything Bin Laden stood for that didn't involve killing people. Che said that violence should only be a last resort when all diplomatic and democratic options had failed. Bin Laden used violence as his first resort and targeted civilians. He and Che are nothing alike. The people who were executed after the Cuban revolution were all put on trial. You might argue that those trials were not entirely fair and you'd probably be right but it at least had the semblance of law, it wasn't just Che shooting random people.

I don't distance myself from Che's questionable actions. To do that I would refuse to acknowledge or ignore the things he did which I don't agree with. I don't do that, I accept him and his actions for what they were. He was a fair man who treated others with respect. During his military campaigns he never executed prisoners of war and he always treated the enemy wounded as well as he did his own men, which is more than can be said for what Batistas forces did to revolutionaries they captured.

Calling Che a murderer is akin to calling every man who administers a lethal injection a murderer or every soldier a murderer. Che did not pass judgement on those who were executed, that was done by a separate tribunal and the majority of the Cuban public supported the executions at the time.

**hotsauceman1**

Frazzled wrote:Snip

What im saying man is that symbols change, people dont see the iron cross as a symbol of hatred anymore, Just like many do not see the "Confederate" flag as hatred anymore, but one of southern pride.

**d-usa**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Snip

What im saying man is that symbols change, people dont see the iron cross as a symbol of hatred anymore, Just like many do not see the "Confederate" flag as hatred anymore, but one of southern pride.

There are many who see the confederate flag as a hatred thing.

I was trying to figure out what kind of "southern pride" rednecks in Illinois and Indiana have when I saw them there.

**Frazzled**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Snip

What im saying man is that symbols change, people dont see the iron cross as a symbol of hatred anymore, Just like many do not see the "Confederate" flag as hatred anymore, but one of southern pride.

1. Some symbols change. This one hasn't outside the rarified air of Spencers (does Spencer's still smell? )
2. The Confederate flag a symbol of Southern Pride? Really? At a Klan rally maybe.
Lets test this. Get one. Now walk around with it in Mississippii and tell everyone you meet its not about hatred. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Snip

What im saying man is that symbols change, people dont see the iron cross as a symbol of hatred anymore, Just like many do not see the "Confederate" flag as hatred anymore, but one of southern pride.

There are many who see the confederate flag as a hatred thing.

I was trying to figure out what kind of "southern pride" rednecks in Illinois and Indiana have when I saw them there.

Maybe they had great pride in their British heritage, but were woefully ignorant of what the British flag actually looks like?

**Mannahnin**

The iron cross has been used a lot by bikers in recent years. I don't know if it's just meant to be a coded racist thing, but I don't believe it's assumed to be.

Found something on it, called the Biker Cross:

Spoiler:

The confederate battle flag is most commonly associated with racism. Some people try to associate it with Southern pride/having positive feelings about the Civil War, but those are mostly fools ignoring the primary reasons for the Civil War.

I don't generally see anyone wearing t-shirts with a hammer & sickle or Mao on them. Che is a bit of an unusual case. Folks do often see him as an idealistic revolutionary (see The Motorcycle Diaries), maybe akin to our own Founding Fathers. Our revolution was pretty nasty in places too.

**d-usa**

I think that area would have more French heritage than English, but I could understand them not claiming French heritage.

**Frazzled**

Mannahnin wrote:The iron cross has been used a lot by bikers in recent years. I don't know if it's just meant to be a coded racist thing, but I don't believe it's assumed to be.

Found something on it, called the Biker Cross:

Spoiler:

The Biker Cross is a derivative of the Iron Cross (a Prussian, and later German, military decoration). Bikers started to display the Iron Cross in the mid 1960′s with the advent of outlaw biker gangs. Originally bikers displayed the Iron Cross as a symbol of rebellion to society in general. Today it is also worn to signify honor, valor, strength and ‘standing up for what you believe.’

Hot rodders (American car customizers) and others use it as a provocative gesture to offend the public, or as a symbol of rebellion or non-conformity. In the 1960s, the Iron Cross was adopted by American surfers, who started wearing medals plundered from their fathers. Volkswagen enthusiasts, particularly Volksrodders, often use the Iron Cross as a symbol that reflects the car’s country of origin. Ed Roth created accessories for surfers, hot rodders and bikers derived from German World War II trophies.

Modern biker crosses can vary in shape and internal designs since often they are personalized to reflect personal beliefs, life styles and/or organizations. For example a biker that rides British motorcycles may display a cross with a Union Jack overlay known as a British Biker Cross. A biker that is also a Christian and is proud to display his or her Christian beliefs may choose to display a Christian Biker Cross that is a combination of the Maltese Cross and Iron Cross that has the lower tang stretched out to represent a Crucifix. A patriotic American Biker may choose to display a cross with the American Flag stars and stripes on it such as the American Old Glory Cross.
http://pbmo.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/biker-cross/#more-7517

The confederate battle flag is most commonly associated with racism. Some people try to associate it with Southern pride/having positive feelings about the Civil War, but those are mostly fools ignoring the primary reasons for the Civil War.

I don't generally see anyone wearing t-shirts with a hammer & sickle or Mao on them. Che is a bit of an unusual case. Folks do often see him as an idealistic revolutionary (see The Motorcycle Diaries), maybe akin to our own Founding Fathers. Our revolution was pretty nasty in places too.

Well the Iron Cross (as in pre Nazi sign for Germany) etc. is fine. Wearing an Iron Cross and being around swastikas is whole different intent.
Its the same with the Confederate Battle Flag. Showing Dixie as part of a re-enactment? Cool. Showing it as one of the many flags that have flown over Texas? Cool. Putting a big flag next to your iron cross on the back of your double dooley diesel pickup?

**Mannahnin**

Concur. Though I think it's spelled "dualey", to refer to the dual tires on each side at the back.

**Frazzled**

Am I mistaken or was it originally called the Maltese Cross?

**Mannahnin**

The maltese cross is similar, but comes to four points in the center, and the ends are V shaped.

**Frazzled**

Mannahnin wrote:The maltese cross is similar, but comes to four points in the center.

I'm so confused! (situation normal) At least it confirms there is in fact a Malta.

**dogma**

Mannahnin wrote:Concur. Though I think it's spelled "dualey", to refer to the dual tires on each side at the back.

Dually.