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EMP grenades now very useful, if a bit overcosted.

this blasted iPod won't let me view PDFs.. What's the deal with emp?

Vespids got pretty good as well!

1) Deep Strike in 5+ area terrain, automatically passing dangerous terrain due to new skilled ___ rules. Combine with PF fish to ensure accuracy

2) Fire at MEQ unit nearby, hopefully picking off specials lurking at the back of the unit. Preferably with markerlights support. In rare situations receive 2+ cover due to night fighting.

3) On your opponent turn, go to ground for +2 cover in area terrain, resulting in 3+ cover

4) You can still overwatch after going to ground

5) You're I5 and go first

I'd gladly pay their current point cost for this, and I'm definitely going to experiment with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

troy_tempest wrote:this blasted iPod won't let me view PDFs.. What's the deal with emp?

Glance a land raider 4 times and it dies, period.

Andy06r wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

troy_tempest wrote:this blasted iPod won't let me view PDFs.. What's the deal with emp?

Glance a land raider 4 times and it dies, period.

Right, it's not a change in the FAQ, but rather the change in the vehicle rules. Because you never need more than a 3+ to hit a vehicle and all you need is 4 glances max, a unit of fire warriors assaulting with EMP grenades is now a huge threat to any non-flyer vehicle.

I guess it is time to check my crisis suit loadouts.

I wonder if my fishgoats would want me to recruit some allies..

With the changes in 6th, what do you think of the following:

HQ

Shas'el
: Plasma Rifle
: Cyclic ion Blaster
: Targeting Array
: Bonding Knife
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Iridium Armor
: Blacksun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Shas'vre X2 (Total)
: Plasma Rifle
: Missile Pod
: Targeting Array
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker


ELITES

Shas'ui X 2 (Total)
: Plasma Rifle
: Missile Pod
: Targeting Array
: Team Leader
: Bonding Knife
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Shas'ui X 2 (Total)
: Fusion Blaster
: Plasma Rifle
: Targeting Array
: Team Leader
: Bonding Knife
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2


FAST ATTACK

Pathfinder Team X4
: Devil Fish
: Disruption Pods


TROOPS

Fire Warrior Team X10
: Team Leader
: Blacksun Filter
: Bonding Knife

Fire Warrior Team X10
: Team Leader
: Blacksun Filter
: Bonding Knife


HEAVY SUPPORT

Broadside
: Shas'ui
: Advanced Stabilization System
: Team Leader
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Sniper Drone Team X2

Hammerhead
: Rail Gun
: Two Burst Cannons
: Disruption Pods
: Blacksun Filter
: Multi Tracker


Should be about 1498.

acekevin8412 wrote:^Yes vehicle obscured is still 4+. However, it then goes to say that any wargear derived cover save is always 5+.

Being obscured gives you a cover save equal to the cover save of the terrain you are obscured by. So being obscured by a ruin gives you 4+ but being obscured by trees gives you 5+.

right off the bat the Bodyguard are STILL overcosted regardless of rolling a 6 and picking the target its still too much.

Sniper Drones still suck as a HS slot. They havent changed at all so adding them to a list is strange

10 man FW units are odd... We can regroup under 50% now so why not take a full 12 man squad? No fish for these guys? They will get obliterated in 1 turn.

4 crisis suits is weak.. especially when 2 come with the FB which has balls range.

Im not seeing how this list is any better in 6E than it would be in 5E... It is equally as bad.

Hmmm you can tell how new I am at Tau then huh..

What would you do for 1500 points to maximize the buffs from 6th?

So far im getting to:

Drop the body guards
Drop Sniper Drones
Add +2 FW and give them a fish
Add more suits... should I add another elite slot or just 1 more to the units there, changing the FB guys to fireknife

From what I can tell, there is no Skilled ____ USR, just Skilled Rider. So you don't automatically pass dangerous terrain tests, you just get a reroll.


While looking that up, I also saw the Split Fire USR, which has text almost identical to the 4th Edition Target Lock, down to making a Leadership test.

So...were Tau units supposed to get Split Fire or what?

acekevin8412 wrote:Photon Grenades now give stealth....cool?

Flavius Infernus wrote:EMP grenades now very useful, if a bit overcosted.

Actually, you both need to check the wording again.

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Not trying to start an argument but While the fluff description calls them defensive, Photon grenades are called photon grenades. In 5th they actually referenced the photons as defensive in the BRB which is why they were. 6th ed amd the FaQ fail to do so.

Same for EMP. Emp Grenades are "not" haywires. They have a different name and stats.

Again, not trying to start an argument, rather trying to prevent them. If GW had just done a better job with their FAQ's.



I cover this and some nice things in my Tactica& review thread in this forum. You can find it here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page

Edit to add URL

focusedfire wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:Photon Grenades now give stealth....cool?

Flavius Infernus wrote:EMP grenades now very useful, if a bit overcosted.

Actually, you both need to check the wording again.

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Not trying to start an argument but While the fluff description calls them defensive, Photon grenades are called photon grenades. In 5th they actually referenced the photons as defensive in the BRB which is why they were. 6th ed amd the FaQ fail to do so.

Same for EMP. Emp Grenades are "not" haywires. They have a different name and stats.

Again, not trying to start an argument, rather trying to prevent them. If GW had just done a better job with their FAQ's.



I cover this and some nice things in my Tactica& review thread in this forum. You can find it here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page

Edit to add URL

I concede the point for Photon Grenades not being defensive grenades, damn GW, but EMP grenades don't have to be haywire. 3-4 auto Glance and 5-6 auto Pen is a lot more powerful, albeit less reliable than the 2-5 glance and 6 pen of haywire.

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

It doesn't need to come up in the FAQ as the main rulebook and Tau codex already state that they are defensive grenades.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

They aren't described as such in the codex though. It's like the Storm Lords staff. It's described in it's fluff as a Staff of Light, but its rules section makes no mention of it being able to be used as such. Same goes for photon grenades.

acekevin8412 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

They aren't described as such in the codex though. It's like the Storm Lords staff. It's described in it's fluff as a Staff of Light, but its rules section makes no mention of it being able to be used as such. Same goes for photon grenades.

Tau Armoury, Photon grenades, first line: "A defensive grenade that blinds and disorients attackers with multi-spectral light and a sonic burst."
Main Rulebook, Defensive grenades, first sentence: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau, which emit multi-spectrum light and a sonic burst have dual uses."

How much clearer does it have to be? The description of a defensive grenade is almost word for word identical to the description of a photon grenade.

Only the most stubborn TFG would argue that Photon Grenades do not follow all the rules of defensive grenades from the main rulebook.

Imotekh's Staff of the Destroyer is an, "ancient and ornamental staff of light......" And yet, the majority of the gaming community, from what I have seen, has agreed that the Staff of the Destroyer is a one shot weapon and cannot be used as a staff of light even though it is described as such. Same goes for Tau Photon Grenades. Its the poor differentiation of fluff and rules.

Now before you call me TFG, I myself play Tau and would love to take advantage of this little buff, however, the rules are rules whether they help or not.

acekevin8412 wrote:Imotekh's Staff of the Destroyer is an, "ancient and ornamental staff of light......" And yet, the majority of the gaming community, from what I have seen, has agreed that the Staff of the Destroyer is a one shot weapon and cannot be used as a staff of light even though it is described as such. Same goes for Tau Photon Grenades. Its the poor differentiation of fluff and rules.

Now before you call me TFG, I myself play Tau and would love to take advantage of this little buff, however, the rules are rules whether they help or not.

So despite the main rulebook and the Tau codex describing Photon grenades as defensive grenades you are saying they are not?

GW probably didn't FAQ them because they thought that having Photon grenades be explicitly mentioned as defensive grenades in two different places would be enough.

Only the main book describes them as defensive grenades. Rules-wise, the Tau codex Photon Grenades produce a defensive grenade like effect w/o conferring all the benefits.

This thread is getting side-tracked. I understand and accept that your interpretation is what was intended. However, I like to play the devil's advocate and am a general pessimist, so I'll stick with my interpretation. If you want to continue, feel free to pm me.

Can we agree to disagree?

Moving on, since vehicles can not be glanced to death along with the rapid fire update, it looks like FW can be used for anti AV10-11 duty freeing up suits to focus on MEq/TEq hunting.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Tau Armoury, Photon grenades, first line: "A defensive grenade that blinds and disorients attackers with multi-spectral light and a sonic burst."
Main Rulebook, Defensive grenades, first sentence: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau, which emit multi-spectrum light and a sonic burst have dual uses."

How much clearer does it have to be? The description of a defensive grenade is almost word for word identical to the description of a photon grenade.

Only the most stubborn TFG would argue that Photon Grenades do not follow all the rules of defensive grenades from the main rulebook.

I think what Malus is pointing to here is an example of what the 6E FAQ's are calling weapons that are "written out in longhand" in the Amendment disclaimer, no?

I can't imagine what else they would mean by "longhand" since nothing in any codex is hand-written. It seems to me that the FAQs are saying that fluff descriptions should count as legitimate rules descriptions on old codexes.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Tau Armoury, Photon grenades, first line: "A defensive grenade that blinds and disorients attackers with multi-spectral light and a sonic burst."
Main Rulebook, Defensive grenades, first sentence: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau, which emit multi-spectrum light and a sonic burst have dual uses."

How much clearer does it have to be? The description of a defensive grenade is almost word for word identical to the description of a photon grenade.

Only the most stubborn TFG would argue that Photon Grenades do not follow all the rules of defensive grenades from the main rulebook.

I think what Malus is pointing to here is an example of what the 6E FAQ's are calling weapons that are "written out in longhand" in the Amendment disclaimer, no?

I can't imagine what else they would mean by "longhand" since nothing in any codex is hand-written. It seems to me that the FAQs are saying that fluff descriptions should count as legitimate rules descriptions on old codexes.

I had skimmed over that little paragraph in the FAQ but yes, this does seem to be an example of one of these "longhand rules". So the FAQ says that unless the FAQ itself says otherwise these weapons follow the rules in the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for the type of weapon they are.

that's a good point andy06r makes about vespid. Being in cover for these guys is a must, and overwatch means meq will think twice before charging. The i10 jump infantry attack could be useful against some lightly armoured targets.

Only problem is they are still competing with suits for the anti-meq role.. and suits are more survivable, have better range and can provide ap2 guns.

OutlawBandit wrote:With the changes in 6th, what do you think of the following:

HEAVY SUPPORT

Broadside
: Shas'ui
: Advanced Stabilization System
: Team Leader
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Sniper Drone Team X2

Should be about 1498.

Too many downsides to A.S.S now and I find you might only move 1 or 2 turns a game so now we have snap fire to shoot while moveing target array seems better over the course of a battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Milisim wrote:right off the bat the Bodyguard are STILL overcosted regardless of rolling a 6 and picking the target its still too much.

Sniper Drones still suck as a HS slot. They havent changed at all so adding them to a list is strange

Sniper Drones have a 2+ cover save now behind cover and 4+ in open and any IC battlesuits joining them gains stealth. Good if you start 2nd and want to give extra cover to a commander.

OK, so based off of True LOS the drone floating above some ruins only gets the 4+ save or does the stand also count for obscurement?

example:
o= drone on stand
h = enemy unit

o
____n____m_______h

Just been giving some more thought to some of the rule changes and realised that we are royally screwed by the changes to Feel No Pain.

As it is now only nullified by Instant Death, the only things we have that are able to nullify it from Marines are Fusion Blasters, Seeker Missiles and Railguns.

If that unit happens to be Plague Marines then only our Railguns will nullify it, yay...

Well, outside of Plasma guns, that's the list of what we used to cope with FNP last edition, so no huge change there. It sucks that plasma became less valuable for us, but given the changes to power weapons and focus on Dark Angels, we may see enough army lists carrying heavier termie loadouts to make keeping fireknives valuable.

I agree it got nerfed, but your still killing marines w/ plasma instantly w/o cover and if they have fnp, they only get the 5+. It's not like they get armour and fnp w/ only a 3+ armor save. The ap2 nullifies their armor so they only get the 5+, right? Also just to clarify if an fnp marine is in cover they wouldn't get cover and than fnp if they fail the cover.

They would still get FNP afaik. FNP is a separate save you get to take if you fail your armor/cover/invul save. It's part of why plague marines in a piece of area terrain were/are such a nightmare to shift and made such ideal objective campers (The other part was their wonderful T5)

I think the trade off between us not getting plasma rifles to negate FnP and the save itself only being a 33% chance rather than 50% is fair. We might not have as many weapons that go through it, but every other weapon we have got more effective against it. DE won't be such a pain now. pain... get it?

Cirronimbus wrote:I think the trade off between us not getting plasma rifles to negate FnP and the save itself only being a 33% chance rather than 50% is fair. We might not have as many weapons that go through it, but every other weapon we have got more effective against it. DE won't be such a pain now. pain... get it?

Dark Eldar were never really that tough, even with 4+ FNP. When your basic guns are wounding them on 2+ and the most popular Crisis suit weapons (Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods) ignore the majority of their armour saves (with Armoured Carapace and Incubi Armour still saving against Missile Pods) whilst inflicting Instant Death, it wasn't that hard to take them out once you got them out of their transports and cut their manoeuvrability.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

It doesn't need to come up in the FAQ as the main rulebook and Tau codex already state that they are defensive grenades.

Yeah, your right. I fixed that in the Tactica thread. The Photons are Defensive and get the new rules but the EMP's do not until a faq or new codex says otherwise.

Sorry about the mistake.