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The average on 2d6 is 7. Charges actually got longer in most circumstances.

Anyone read the new beast rules and move through cover? Scarabs are just VILE now. Especially with 2d6 charge... mech lists are no more.

Squishy wrote:

Negator80 wrote:

They're too busy rationalizing to pay attention to logic.

I just watched you make a complete fool of yourself, insult 3 other people, and openly attack someone for not conforming to your idea of logic. I feel sorry for whatever group you play with.

Exalted. Negator, you really ought to learn about common courtesy. It'll make people be much more likely to listen to you and take you seriously. You'll also probably win a few more friends.

That's all I have to say. I don't think i'll check this thread again, because you'll probably respond to this with some rude, un-based remark on my intelligence that i'd care not to hear.

Negator80 wrote:Your are simply wrong. It doesnt force you to be more careful; why be careful when in the end, its about luck?

Your example only proves yourself wrong lol. I'll let you figure that one out.

It does force you to be more careful. For example, there are two units nearby that you may want to assault, it is your movement phase. Unit A is 15 inches away and is a very expensive unit that you can probably kill in hand to hand (lets say it is some marine HQ out of cover with vanguard vets and you have Incubi), Unit B is 9 inches away and is far less valuable (lets say a basic assault marine squad ). Now you have to take a risk assessment. If you go for Unit A you will have to assault a unit 9 inches away, which is pretty unlikely (certainly feasible, but not odds that one should reasonably expect to make). If you go for Unit B you will have to charge a mere 3 inches on 2D6 which is almost guaranteed.

Now you need to decide, do you assault the closer unit and waste an opportunity to kill that expensive HQ, or do you take a risk and assault the close unit, getting shot to bits and assaulted if you fail to reach them?

I have found, over and over and over and over again that luck plays a very small amount in the game once your playing with more complex stratagies. I've lost only a half a dozen games over the last 3 years or so since I got past the learning phase to bad luck, and that was "rolled 6 1s and 4 2s in one roll" kind of bad odds all game to make luck important. you hedge your bets your have back up plans and you don't bank on 12" of charge.

but if the OP's response to "this just makes it so you need to think more critically about your stratagy" is "Your are simply wrong" just ignore him, he's clearly just seeking attention, ignore him.

Hmm. I'm not keen on the idea of random charges, simply because it seems to offer the prospect of a few poor die rolls changing the outcome of a game.

I'm distinctly unkeen on pre-measuring, too, for that matter, since it tends to lead to endless analysis paralysis (and it's hardly as though WH40k doesn't already have a surfeit of dead time).

sniperjolly wrote:Here is a very simple reason they added random charge distance.

Pre-measuring.

Exactly, I had so many people try and do this when they were checking for "range" in the shooting phase or just "holding the tape measure out." Really pissed me off. Now you'll have to really strategize. It does suck that there is a potential of your charge only being two inches but this is more realistic. Multiple times in history, a great charge was stopped flat due to bad terrain or the front stumbling and stuff like that. Running towards the enemy is always a matter of hoping you don't trip up.

Bah! Just a game. OP, go find something more meaningful to get all rabid about. I don't like everything about this edition, but it's the best version of 40K yet, and so I plan to play it as often as possible.

Kaldor wrote:

Negator80 wrote:Ah right. There's a little bit of logic finally. from here, the argument is simply: this is too random and stupid.


And everyone runs around with 4T and a 3+ save too right? Nevermind all those xenos races that wont be able to weather the return fire.

You know what, I give up. I have no idea what you're even talking about, and I strongly suspect it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

This seems pretty clear to me, Kaldor. Though maybe his way of putting it was not the most appropriate.


Can anyone's charge fail? Yes, of course. You can march uber-close and still roll snake-eyes and hang there like a dope. No one is arguing that.

Now...does everyine pay the same PRICE for that bad luck?

No. MeQs and TeQs will hurt, of course, but on average they will weather the lost turn decently. They have sturdy T and saves to deal with wounds, carry weapons with a good volume of fire for overwatch, and so on. You may even be able to wipe it, but it'll take some focused fire from a few units.

Other armies with more fragile CC troops? You can feasibly wipe the unit that failed the charge with a single unit's firepower and move on to the next.

So the risk is the same for all. The effects of that risk are not. Is it clear?

My 2 cents.

Randomness is good at a certain amount.
In my opinion i think the best rule could be something that mix both possibilities, something like:

charge - "6" of movement.
Risk charge - 2d6 of movement .

so...you´ll have the chance of avoid randomness, opting for the fixed 6 in. charge. or, you could risk yourself trying to achieve a charge of 2 or 12 !

so you´ll have the cinematic scene like in the old "the man of the iron mask" (Di Caprio) when the musketters charge in the corridor with lot´s of lesser musketters in their front, guns in hand.
Something like: " ok. if i dont caught them now, i´ll be shooted to death...so let´s try....charge! " or " ok...if i run, i could not reach them, due to shooting and grenades (fluff), better take a good position to next chance Charge!"

so....a good player will now what to do to avoid, unavoid charge range...but luck, and daring, will take their token too!


bye!

Random charge distance might not seem that bad but have a few goes with a CC nid army, stack on overwatch and the various CC nerfs. Then come back and tell me having a random charge distance is good.

I got an idea, why not make gun range random too? 4d6 for bolters. No problem right, random is fun!

60mm wrote:Random charge distance might not seem that bad but have a few goes with a CC nid army, stack on overwatch and the various CC nerfs. Then come back and tell me having a random charge distance is good.

I got an idea, why not make gun range random too? 4d6 for bolters. No problem right, random is fun!

You lost fearless no retreat wounds, your rage now gives +2 if your out of synapse, you still have FNP given by tervigons, you have cover saves that can be granted by venomthropes, you can now CC vehicles with an actual rate.

60mm wrote:Random charge distance might not seem that bad but have a few goes with a CC nid army, stack on overwatch and the various CC nerfs. Then come back and tell me having a random charge distance is good.

I got an idea, why not make gun range random too? 4d6 for bolters. No problem right, random is fun!

i agree with you in a degree.

I think every weapon should have a half range with a FIX number and a Max. Range with a random number (half + Xd6) (gravity affecting the bullet, wind, ambient distorting laser, cooled plasma...you name it)

so. everything in the game should have a "zone of confort" - fix range - and a "zone of randomness" - d6 plus range.

bye

Kaldor is right. This is going to separate a good general from the bad. This simulates a true battle field and how a real battle works, we don't know if they are getting to get there; a hole in the ground, a slip, a bug flying into your eye, bright shiny things. This is going to simulate distractions and such in battle.

DiRTWaL wrote:Kaldor is right. This is going to separate a good general from the bad. This simulates a true battle field and how a real battle works, we don't know if they are getting to get there; a hole in the ground, a slip, a bug flying into your eye, bright shiny things. This is going to simulate distractions and such in battle.

agree again. But also, a bad roll day will ruin all your day, including the fun! So luck and bad luck, should be mitigated!


bye

Fearless no retreat change is good
Terv/venom buffs are nothing new and were nerfed as well
Cc vs vehicles got nerfed a bit for MCs, buffed a bit for gaunts, seems to be a wash overall unless you wanna go all dakka which just doesnt feel nid at all but no complaints from me there really
The rage/synapse thing is utter crap, i dont care if its better, it goes against the core of Tyranid fluff. So now I should have everyone with feed AVOID synapse and hope they fail ld tests . . . to get better Huh? Not gonna go into that.

And none of those make up for not being able to determine when you can and cant use your weapons when you play a CC army. Falling short and then getting obliterated because your murderous creatures on a feeding spree got lazy and decided to run 10 ft less isn't tactical. Like i said, if random range for CC is fine, why not random shoot range? Whats the problem there?

Baronyu wrote:And finally, I ask again, why isn't this "random is so tactical and fun" element added to shooting?

I concur. Now that you can measure before you finalize your orders, we shouldn't use the old system where if you're in range you automatically hit. Maybe have a "hit roll" to see how good your attack is! That's a great idea, why hasn't it been used yet?

Alrighty, so i apologize for being so vitriolic.

On another note, perhaps for each heavy weapon you have, you should roll a D6 before the fight. On each 1, it malfunctions for the game. That way, the good players will stack the odds by bringing more of them. Same thing for space marine armor; its so old there's a chance its power source fizzles at the start of each game and that model fights without its armor save.

Negator80 wrote:Alrighty, so i apologize for being so vitriolic.

On another note, perhaps for each heavy weapon you have, you should roll a D6 before the fight. On each 1, it malfunctions for the game. That way, the good players will stack the odds by bringing more of them. Same thing for space marine armor; its so old there's a chance its power source fizzles at the start of each game and that model fights without its armor save.

Before this happens though, on a 1 they should malfunction, than on another d6 they should see what happens, with a 6 being it explodes and takes out three or so units without an armour save.

I'm sorry, but I'm a fantasy player as well, I'm so used to things exploding that this really wouldn't bother me at all

DiRTWaL wrote:Kaldor is right. This is going to separate a good general from the bad. This simulates a true battle field and how a real battle works, we don't know if they are getting to get there; a hole in the ground, a slip, a bug flying into your eye, bright shiny things. This is going to simulate distractions and such in battle.

I dont understand how it seperates the good general from the bad. Didnt the old system do that just as well?

rvianarpg wrote:My 2 cents.

Randomness is good at a certain amount.
In my opinion i think the best rule could be something that mix both possibilities, something like:

charge - "6" of movement.
Risk charge - 2d6 of movement .

so...you´ll have the chance of avoid randomness, opting for the fixed 6 in. charge. or, you could risk yourself trying to achieve a charge of 2 or 12 !

so you´ll have the cinematic scene like in the old "the man of the iron mask" (Di Caprio) when the musketters charge in the corridor with lot´s of lesser musketters in their front, guns in hand.
Something like: " ok. if i dont caught them now, i´ll be shooted to death...so let´s try....charge! " or " ok...if i run, i could not reach them, due to shooting and grenades (fluff), better take a good position to next chance Charge!"

so....a good player will now what to do to avoid, unavoid charge range...but luck, and daring, will take their token too!


bye!

To be honest, I like this idea, why aren't you writing the rulebook? Go find a time machine and fix 6th ed! While you're at it, bring back fleet = run + charge!!

squishy and xttz... are you trolls?

OP I think people have taken offence to your use of the word dumb... but in regards to my thoughts on it I personally think its the worst move of the lot for 6th ed. 2d6+I stat may have been better (oh hello WHFB again?!) Not only will tyranids (immensely assault based army) have to deal with no allies, they will have to deal with reduced cover saves (a good thing over all, just very bad in their case) being shot at when they initiate a charge (so those plucky few who made it all the way across the battlefield still aren't safe) and then run the risk of their assault not even reaching the enemy (how was effectively writing of the most unique army in 40k a smart move GW?)

EDIT: Assaulting in general seems like a no go in this edition... it's just too much of a risk for everyone except space marines or MCs.

MAybe thats the point? Assaults are kinda the only way to do something in 5th. Shooting was to just get a few outta the way.
Now shooting is a masssive detterant as is assault.

Baronyu wrote:

rvianarpg wrote:My 2 cents.

Randomness is good at a certain amount.
In my opinion i think the best rule could be something that mix both possibilities, something like:

charge - "6" of movement.
Risk charge - 2d6 of movement .

so...you´ll have the chance of avoid randomness, opting for the fixed 6 in. charge. or, you could risk yourself trying to achieve a charge of 2 or 12 !

so you´ll have the cinematic scene like in the old "the man of the iron mask" (Di Caprio) when the musketters charge in the corridor with lot´s of lesser musketters in their front, guns in hand.
Something like: " ok. if i dont caught them now, i´ll be shooted to death...so let´s try....charge! " or " ok...if i run, i could not reach them, due to shooting and grenades (fluff), better take a good position to next chance Charge!"

so....a good player will now what to do to avoid, unavoid charge range...but luck, and daring, will take their token too!


bye!

To be honest, I like this idea, why aren't you writing the rulebook? Go find a time machine and fix 6th ed! While you're at it, bring back fleet = run + charge!!

I´m trying to go back, but im out of "chernobly" and my "time tube machine" will not work without it! by the way, do you have contact with Chevy Chase? he´ll know how to fix it!

Kaldor wrote:

Negator80 wrote:Oh and this is a clear buff to marines.

Oh yeah, that's exactly what I said.

it is exactly what you said. You even explained it. 'stack the odds'=better chance at getting lucky. However, the options you have to stack those odds are quite limited.

I don't think luck works the way you think it does.

If there's a 50% chance of failure, a good player will commit two units to the task, halving his rate of failure.

With the same luck, a good player is now twice as likely to succeed.

The way you're saying it, I should be able to charge some Grots into a Paladin Deathstar and expect to destroy it because hey, it's all just luck, right?

This, but instead of "same luck" I recomend "same chance of failure" as this might help to stop the confusion surrounding "what luck is" in this thread. Credit though as I couldnt have explained it better myself.

While there would be better rules, like the aforementioned fixed/risk charge (kudos) I think that this particular change will benefit the game and help make it more unpredictable and enjoyable. But then hey, Im not so bothered about winning as some people are. I just like a good time and if one bad roll of the dice ruins the fun for you then I'd rather not play you.

No offence intended ^^ maybe its just because I'm used to rolling poorly.

Regards, Talon

As a fantasy player, random charges actually did help out fantasy a bit, though I kinda wish they had made it so it was 2D6 + a unit's speed (GW! Bring back actual movement rates for 40K!)

All games have random elements in them.

Most good wargames list the AVERAGE preformance of a unit , as fixed values on thier stat line.
And the game mechanics use this statistical value to resolve interaction of the unit with other elements, to get the % chance of sucess.(What score on a dice you need to roll to suceed.)

This way the players need to use thier strategic planing and tactical acumen to win the game.

If you want to move away from 'guess ranges' and all the 'cheating ' it presents than pre-measuring is the right way to go.

However, random movement is not the best way to deal with pre-measureing.
Having a movment characteristic and implementing an target aqusition roll .(to see roll.)Seems to offer a better option.

It moves the 'luck ' to the targeting part of the attack, not the result of the attack itself.
(Which is more realistic, as a unit not sure, simply will not commit themselves to the attack..)

Its easier to explain how a unit can not clearly identify an enemy threat , so stays put.

Rather than stop half way to a target ,and getting shot up as a result!

And not attacking has the same effect on all units , rather than the make them stand in no mans land to get shot up.Where well protected units loose far less than lightly protected units do.

Just a thought....

Random charge distance and pre-measuring is actually reinforcing the skill of judging distance. The only difference is the assessment now is not binary - are they in or out - but factors in elements that some might like to call chance (but is no different to judging the chance elements involved in shooting and combat)

It also cuts down on cheating within the game - if you think the rubber ruler is action, just measure it yourself - and cuts down on arguments. It also makes the game move faster.

Oh and when you get the hang of it you can set baits and traps, and force the opponent to make moves that are to your advantage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:MAybe thats the point? Assaults are kinda the only way to do something in 5th. Shooting was to just get a few outta the way.
Now shooting is a masssive detterant as is assault.

Really?

Isn't that what chaff is for?

marielle wrote:Random charge distance and pre-measuring is actually reinforcing the skill of judging distance. The only difference is the assessment now is not binary - are they in or out - but factors in elements that some might like to call chance (but is no different to judging the chance elements involved in shooting and combat)

3rd time in this thread, if random charge distance is a way to improve the whole judging distance, experience, etc whatever you guys wanna call it, but if these changes are to "improve" the game in some way or the other, I must ask again: Why do they only apply to assault? Wouldn't rolling 4D6 or so for each gun be far more entertaining as well? May be your tactical marine was distracted by a butterfly during the shooting phase!

It also cuts down on cheating within the game - if you think the rubber ruler is action, just measure it yourself - and cuts down on arguments. It also makes the game move faster.

Having to roll 2 dice in the assault phase, possibly pre-measuring before hand, possibly re-rolling if you have rules that allow, is hardly faster than 5th ed's declare-charge-and-you-are-charged, in fact, I'd even go as far as calling it slower.

However, it'll certainly make it "faster" if a lot of people forgo assault units and bring more shooting instead, so I'll give you that.

Oh and when you get the hang of it you can set baits and traps, and force the opponent to make moves that are to your advantage.

How is that not possible in 5th ed? And what if your so-called "baits and traps" failed? Is this what good generals do? "We'll fire in the sky and hope the wind will carry our bullet to the target."?

Pardon my sarcasm, but none of what you said made any sense to me!

Perhaps you should roll an artillery dice to determine the direction you charge as well? That would make just as much sense, and be viable based on the same rationalization thats being used to justify random distance.