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This has been covered a lot before, and most of the time it comes out to Eldar powers not working on Dark Eldar units. To gain the benefit you would have to attach an IC to an Eldar unit, and cast it so the IC can benefit (IC being from Dark Eldar).

Eldar is Eldar.
Dark Eldar is Dark Eldar.

On the table top, on the Warhammer website, in the lore, and in the rulebook they are classified as two entirely different entities. An "Eldar" can be psychically active and has typical white skin. A "Dark Eldar" cannot be psychically active and has translucent/see through skin. The Eldar consider their Dark Eldar kin to be entirely different creatures now, not the same Eldar as they are. The only thing that can be used to say that Dark Eldar get the benefit is by having Eldar in the name, but for all intended purposes they are as different as Tyranids and Space Marines. They are divided in every way possible in the game, and they are not an "Eldar" unit.

Edit: Spelling

 DeathReaper wrote:
Eldar is the name of an army.

Dark Eldar is the name of a different army.

Eldar /= Dark Eldar

Holy Schnikies, we actually agree on something!

 Oaka wrote:
Obviously it's still a debate for a lot of people, but our group decided pretty quickly that Eldar refers to good and bad Eldar, so we play it that way. Your experience may vary.

Then your group also has to play any references to Dark Eldar also affect Eldar.

Fragile wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
Obviously it's still a debate for a lot of people, but our group decided pretty quickly that Eldar refers to good and bad Eldar, so we play it that way. Your experience may vary.

Then your group also has to play any references to Dark Eldar also affect Eldar.

That sounds fair, glad we could agree on this.

 Oaka wrote:
Obviously it's still a debate for a lot of people, but our group decided pretty quickly that Eldar refers to good and bad Eldar, so we play it that way. Your experience may vary.

.....ignoring Vects rules, which state they are different armies?

Houserules are fine, just understand it is a houserule.

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
On the table top, on the Warhammer website, in the lore, and in the rulebook they are classified as two entirely different entities. An "Eldar" can be psychically active and has typical white skin. A "Dark Eldar" cannot be psychically active and has translucent/see through skin. The Eldar consider their Dark Eldar kin to be entirely different creatures now, not the same Eldar as they are. The only thing that can be used to say that Dark Eldar get the benefit is by having Eldar in the name, but for all intended purposes they are as different as Tyranids and Space Marines. They are divided in every way possible in the game, and they are not an "Eldar" unit.

Edit: Spelling

What you're writing is your interpretation only. Dark Eldar, for example, can be psychically active, they learn how to stunt and ignore their gift most of the time, though.

Psykers? In Cannoragh? What its this Webway coming to?

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:This has been covered a lot before, and most of the time it comes out to Eldar powers not working on Dark Eldar units. To gain the benefit you would have to attach an IC to an Eldar unit, and cast it so the IC can benefit (IC being from Dark Eldar).

Eldar is Eldar.
Dark Eldar is Dark Eldar.

On the table top, on the Warhammer website, in the lore, and in the rulebook they are classified as two entirely different entities. An "Eldar" can be psychically active and has typical white skin. A "Dark Eldar" cannot be psychically active and has translucent/see through skin. The Eldar consider their Dark Eldar kin to be entirely different creatures now, not the same Eldar as they are. The only thing that can be used to say that Dark Eldar get the benefit is by having Eldar in the name, but for all intended purposes they are as different as Tyranids and Space Marines. They are divided in every way possible in the game, and they are not an "Eldar" unit.

Edit: Spelling

And even so, it is not until told that a craftworld Eldar will truly know that an Eldar from Commaragh (who is behaving properly) is actually not born and bred on a craftworld - although the former Dark Eldar will have a psychic presence which is a bit off and will be hard to convince the infinity circuit to touch him until he's been purged of his deviancies. (Reference: Path of the Warrior)
By the way, there is less skin-tone difference between Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar than there is among different human cultures as far as I am aware.

Fragile wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
I'm convinced that 'Eldar Unit' means units that are both 'Craftworld Eldar' and 'Dark Eldar'. Otherwise, nothing could target a 'Friendly Unit' because there is no 'Codex: Friendlies'. If anyone gives you too much trouble over it, simply take some 'Craftworld Eldar' Harlequins that get Stealth, Shrouded, and require range testing.

So then all references to Dark Eldar means Eldar too ?

They are clearly exactly the same races with separate and distinct codex.

I have fixed your text for accuracy.

-----

I have nothing to add to the debate, since it's rules we're discussing, but I'll say this: Eldar evolve slowly, their long life cycles and low mutation rates makes the mere blink of time since the fall insignificant in making the Dark Eldar a separate race. What this YMDC is all about is whether we should interpret the Codex: Eldar (and by all that is sacred it should've been called Codex: Craftworld Eldar).

The debate on whether Eldar and Dark Eldar are separate races is irrelevant. They are more close kin than different Space Marine chapters genetically. I mean, a Space Marine is created by significantly altering a humans DNA where some chapters' seed even requires a very specific genetically compatible human to begin with.

As far as I am concerned the real issue here, when it comes to meta-rule thinking, is whether the Dark Eldar / Tau would listen to the premonitions of the Farseer unconditionally and instantly.

But what about Corsairs?


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Happyjew wrote:
Psykers? In Cannoragh? What its this Webway coming to?

Since they may actually ally with Slaaneshi daemons, what can I say?

Just use Prescience from the BRB -.-

 Mahtamori wrote:

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
They are clearly exactly the same races with separate and distinct codex.

I have fixed your text for accuracy.

And Humans and Apes are the same race. One has just evolved farther and become twisted, demented and destructive. Apes on the other hand... not so bad.

Vect's rule entry makes quite clear that for rules purposes, Eldar and Dark Eldar are two different things.

 ZakFaire wrote:
Just use Prescience from the BRB -.-

Except Prescience requires LOS and if the Farseer is embarked on a transport he can only target himself, his unit, or hte transport.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong. Vect proves you wrong, as he has PE:Eldar and PEark Eldar.

RAW you are wrong even without this, as Eldar is a proper noun and so is Dark Eldar. You cannot simply remove "Dark" from it.

you totally disregarded my entire post, but that's cool. most people aren't very good at debating.

if gw wanted a clear distinction between eldar and dark eldar they would have FAQ'd it just like they did the various space marine rules that were ambiguous like liturgies of blood which now only affects"codex:blood angels units". or the space marine version that only affects "codex:space marine units". since there is no distinction for between "codex:eldar" and "codex:dark eldar" in this case RAW mean all eldar. a "human" and a "big fat human" are still human and unless it is made perfectly clear anything that applies to "humans" applies to both.


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 Mannahnin wrote:
Vect's rule entry makes quite clear that for rules purposes, Eldar and Dark Eldar are two different things.

actually it proves the opposite point. it proves that for all intensive purposed dark eldar and eldar are the same. he get PE against two armies and they're the only eldar armies in the game. meaning he has PE against eldar in general. so they're the same.

I'm going to say the Eldar/=/Dark Eldar.

Simple reason is English grammar:

Eldar, with capitalisation, is a proper noun and so refers to Codex: Eldar.

Therefore, anything which only targets "Eldar" units, can only affect units from Codex:Eldar, whereas an ability that targets "eldar" units can work on both flavours.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
I'm going to say the Eldar/=/Dark Eldar.

Simple reason is English grammar:

Eldar, with capitalisation, is a proper noun and so refers to Codex: Eldar.

Therefore, anything which only targets "Eldar" units, can only affect units from Codex:Eldar, whereas an ability that targets "eldar" units can work on both flavours.

Iranna.

so if an archon is in a squad of eldar wraithguard and the farseer fortunes the unit, does the archon get to re-roll saves too?

He does get to re-roll saves but only because, as an IC, he becomes a normal member of the unit that he joins .

phoenixrisin wrote:


so if an archon is in a squad of eldar wraithguard and the farseer fortunes the unit, does the archon get to re-roll saves too?

Yes, as the targetted Wraithguard are from Codex: Eldar.

This means that it is an "Eldar" unit, regardless of attached characters. This also works for Dark Harliestar.

Iranna.


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 DeathReaper wrote:
He does get to re-roll saves but only because, as an IC, he becomes a normal member of the unit that he joins .

This also!

Iranna.

phoenixrisin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong. Vect proves you wrong, as he has PE:Eldar and PEark Eldar.

RAW you are wrong even without this, as Eldar is a proper noun and so is Dark Eldar. You cannot simply remove "Dark" from it.

you totally disregarded my entire post, but that's cool. most people aren't very good at debating.

Just, wow. Id stop with arguments that insult others.

Your post was irrelevant, from a rules perspective. You realise that, yes? From a rules perspective your post was a very bad attempt at debating rules

phoenixrisin wrote:
if gw wanted a clear distinction between eldar and dark eldar they would have FAQ'd it just like they did the various space marine rules that were ambiguous like liturgies of blood which now only affects"codex:blood angels units". or the space marine version that only affects "codex:space marine units". since there is no distinction for between "codex:eldar" and "codex:dark eldar" in this case RAW mean all eldar. a "human" and a "big fat human" are still human and unless it is made perfectly clear anything that applies to "humans" applies to both.

They made a CLEAR distinction in Vects rules, why would they need to do it again

Again, youre not very good at debating as you have made another logical fallacy - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I would avoid using "RAW" as you have so far not used any WRITTEN rules to support your position. You are, at best, arguing RAI


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 Mannahnin wrote:
Vect's rule entry makes quite clear that for rules purposes, Eldar and Dark Eldar are two different things.

actually it proves the opposite point. it proves that for all intensive purposed dark eldar and eldar are the same. he get PE against two armies and they're the only eldar armies in the game. meaning he has PE against eldar in general. so they're the same.

 Maige wrote:


Here's the wording:

Fortune: The Farseer scries the strands of the future to see where the enemy will attack, warning fellow Eldar so that they may avoid enemy fire. Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer. This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the star of the next Eldar turn.

So would the above example even work? The DE squad is not an Eldar unit. The only 'unit' you are nominating is Eldrad and only the Eldar unit gets the bonus, so I'm thinking only Eldrad would get it.

I'm only playing Devil's Advocate here, because If I'm going to use it I don't want any ambiguity.

The people using the fortuned archon/Vect and casting fortune on a unit of harlequins from Codex:Eldar (hence, an eldar unit) that has been joined by a farseer/Eldrad and an archon/Vect, and sometimes Karandras. So it isn't an issue. You could make an argument to not cast it on a squad of DE harlequins as they might not technically be an Eldar unit.

The Archon gets the bonus if attached to an Eldar unit, as the unit is targeted. the Archon cannot receive it if targeted directly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong. Vect proves you wrong, as he has PE:Eldar and PEark Eldar.

RAW you are wrong even without this, as Eldar is a proper noun and so is Dark Eldar. You cannot simply remove "Dark" from it.

you totally disregarded my entire post, but that's cool. most people aren't very good at debating.

Just, wow. Id stop with arguments that insult others.

Your post was irrelevant, from a rules perspective. You realise that, yes? From a rules perspective your post was a very bad attempt at debating rules

phoenixrisin wrote:
if gw wanted a clear distinction between eldar and dark eldar they would have FAQ'd it just like they did the various space marine rules that were ambiguous like liturgies of blood which now only affects"codex:blood angels units". or the space marine version that only affects "codex:space marine units". since there is no distinction for between "codex:eldar" and "codex:dark eldar" in this case RAW mean all eldar. a "human" and a "big fat human" are still human and unless it is made perfectly clear anything that applies to "humans" applies to both.

They made a CLEAR distinction in Vects rules, why would they need to do it again

Again, youre not very good at debating as you have made another logical fallacy - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I would avoid using "RAW" as you have so far not used any WRITTEN rules to support your position. You are, at best, arguing RAI


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Vect's rule entry makes quite clear that for rules purposes, Eldar and Dark Eldar are two different things.

actually it proves the opposite point. it proves that for all intensive purposed dark eldar and eldar are the same. he get PE against two armies and they're the only eldar armies in the game. meaning he has PE against eldar in general. so they're the same.

If they were the same army he would just have the rule againsdt one named army. HE doesnt, meaning they are not considered the same. Its hard to see how you come to that position honestly, its completely the opposite of what the rules show.

Except that vect's rule clearly shows that Eldar, and Dark Eldar are two different things.

If they were not two different things he would not have to have both entries.

You really should take a look at rule #1 and the other forum rules.

Phoenix - missed "intents and", not "intensive".

Vects rule shows that the two races are separate. Please show they are not separate, using written rules. Remember - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, despite your claim to the contrary

The solution around Fortune is that you have an Archon / Vect join an Eldar unit, then have a Farseer / Eldrad cast Fortune on the unit... The joined IC is then considered part of the unit, and would benefit from Fortune.

So would Chaos Space Marines be able to benifit form wargear that affects Space Marines. I mean they are still Space Marines one is just more chaosy than the other?

Also Toxic_wisdom, I too am a fan of Pirates. My wife and I have turned it into a drinking game. Whenever steryotipical pirate Jargon is used (Aye, ARRRGGG, Mattey etc) or when ever that guy with no legs in on screen you DRINK! Needless to say the Captains Bachelor Party Scene is tough to get through!

Dooley wrote:
...also Toxic_wisdom, I too am a fan of Pirates. My wife and I have turned it into a drinking game. Whenever steryotipical pirate Jargon is used (Aye, ARRRGGG, Mattey etc) or when ever that guy with no legs in on screen you DRINK! Needless to say the Captains Bachelor Party Scene is tough to get through!..

Nice !.. there's probably only a small handful of players that make the pirate connection = hats off to you, good sir !

 TheHarleqwin wrote:
The Archon gets the bonus if attached to an Eldar unit, as the unit is targeted. the Archon cannot receive it if targeted directly.

This.

I faced Eldrad 4 times at NOVA, and this is how you do it. Take a Eldar unit, attach your allied crazy ICs to it, BAM! Eldrad powers work.

That is the only way.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:

Dooley wrote:
...also Toxic_wisdom, I too am a fan of Pirates. My wife and I have turned it into a drinking game. Whenever steryotipical pirate Jargon is used (Aye, ARRRGGG, Mattey etc) or when ever that guy with no legs in on screen you DRINK! Needless to say the Captains Bachelor Party Scene is tough to get through!..

Nice !.. there's probably only a small handful of players that make the pirate connection = hats off to you, good sir !

Have you seen Stagneties revenge? Its fun times as well! Captain Renalds FTW!

So what say you all to having an Eldar Farseer on jet bike joined to a unit of reavers where the whole unit turbo boosts to get a rerollable 3+ save?

The Farseer casts fortune with the target of himself.

 Jayden63 wrote:
So what say you all to having an Eldar Farseer on jet bike joined to a unit of reavers where the whole unit turbo boosts to get a rerollable 3+ save?

The Farseer casts fortune with the target of himself.

When he's in a unit, he becomes a part of that unit and cannot target himself alone. Even if he could just target himself, it would only affect himself.