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Tactica wrote:For what it's worth, I say, you can use it on Overwatch in the enemy turn, and since you didn't fire it in the enemy Shooting phase, you can also use it as a power weapon.

In this case you're using it as a template weapon and a power weapon in the same turn, which breaks the rules for burnas.

DeathReaper wrote:

Tactica wrote: I say, you can use it on Overwatch in the enemy turn, and since you didn't fire it in the enemy Shooting phase, you can also use it as a power weapon.

So you are allowing a burna to fire in the assault phase, even though the Burna rules say they are used in the shooting phase with the profile below. you say Overwatch overrules this.

But how are you getting around the "but not both in the same turn." part of it?

if you are going to override the restriction on shooting in the assault phase, you have to include the restriction about not being used for both in the same turn.

By applying RAI thinking versus RAW? Come on, this is a 4th edition codex. We are now in a brand new 6th edition. I think it's beyond obvious that Phil Kelly didn't take Overwatch into account when he wrote it, and I think it's fair to say that the intention was that the weapon can be used either as a template weapon or a power weapon, but not both in one turn. Normally I'd go with RAW, but there's gotta be some leeway when you take into account an old codex in a new edition of the rules.

grendel083 wrote:In this case you're using it as a template weapon and a power weapon in the same turn, which breaks the rules for burnas.

I agree with this. RAI and RAW happens to be the same this time.

You can fire them on overwatch because it's resolved as a shooting attack but if you do they will not work as power weapons in that assault phase because you can't use it for both in the same turn.

Though people are already cherry-picking RAI dubious rules, as GW obviously didn't even read our codex when writing the FAQ.

Forget the "both in the same turn" bit. During the assault phase burnas aren't template weapons period. The codex is VERY clear about this:

pg 45: 'A Burna may be used in the Shooting Phase with the profile below, or as a power weapon in an assault,'

The same could be said for pistols though or any other gun for that matter

grendel083 wrote:

Tactica wrote:For what it's worth, I say, you can use it on Overwatch in the enemy turn, and since you didn't fire it in the enemy Shooting phase, you can also use it as a power weapon.

In this case you're using it as a template weapon and a power weapon in the same turn, which breaks the rules for burnas.

It just says you cannot use it in two phases in the same turn... you didn't... it's your opponents turn. You did not use it in his shooting phase.... you only used it in his assault phase. Overwatch is a special rule in his assault phase and using them as power weapons also happens in his assault phase.

See?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgjensen wrote:Come on, this is a 4th edition codex. We are now in a brand new 6th edition. I think it's beyond obvious that Phil Kelly didn't take Overwatch into account when he wrote it, and I think it's fair to say that the intention was that the weapon can be used either as a template weapon or a power weapon, but not both in one turn. Normally I'd go with RAW, but there's gotta be some leeway when you take into account an old codex in a new edition of the rules.

Agreed, it's a 4th codex and I think that's a valid point. However, they also issued a FAQ. Until they clean it up further, and I think they should (I mean really, squigs at Zooming Flyers???)... I play orks, it's my second favorite army and I think that's rediculous!!! However, I digress...

The quoted statement makes perfect sense to me, and I would support it fully. I would play it either way because I totally get that the weapon was designed to fire one way or the other, not both. I would think that the INAT would land on something like, if you fire it as overwatch, you cannot use it as burnas "Interpretation" or something like that... It's logical after all.

However, as we were talking rules as written and how to apply them as close to the letter as possible, until the FAQ's clean up... so as written, I think someone has a valid argument to say... the burna cannot fire in two phases "shooting" and "assault" of the same turn - No problem... Overwatch permits a special event, to use a models weapon in the assault phase causing D3 hits if it can fire a template in the shooting phase - the burna can, but again, it's a special event happening in the assault phase, Overwatch is not shooting in the shooting phase of the opponents turn...therefore after Overwatch resolution, we finish the assault phase and the weapon was still never used in the shooting phase of the opponent's turn and was only ever used in the assault phase of the opponents turn.

Just the way I see it, carry on...

Tactica wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Tactica wrote:For what it's worth, I say, you can use it on Overwatch in the enemy turn, and since you didn't fire it in the enemy Shooting phase, you can also use it as a power weapon.

In this case you're using it as a template weapon and a power weapon in the same turn, which breaks the rules for burnas.

It just says you cannot use it in two phases in the same turn... you didn't... it's your opponents turn. You did not use it in his shooting phase.... you only used it in his assault phase. Overwatch is a special rule in his assault phase and using them as power weapons also happens in his assault phase.

See?

It clearly says "...but not both in the same turn."
Your turn or opponents turn, it's still a turn.
Your suggesting not only using it as both in the same turn, but both in the same phase. This breaks the rule.

Not in the shooting phase and the assault phase in the same turn is what that reads as.

That never happens in the posited scenario.

Whether it can be used in the assault phase as a template weapon is the more interesting take.

Man I am glad Ard Boyz is no longer a format!! The problem with this is clearly how BADLY do you want this to work. Yes you can use it as a template weapon in the shooting phase OR as a power weapon in the assault phase.. Yes it is a template weapon and works with torrent of fire on an over watch move. Technically NO you did NOT use it during THAT TURNS shooting phase (Over watch is done in assault) so yes by RAW you CAN do both. In the SPIRIT OF THE GAME "SHOULD" you do BOTH??? I know this is the internets and people are asking questions on how things work to get a consensus (at least thats what I HOPE the point of this is) but lets face it. ASK your opponent if you can do that at the table and watch the face you get. Is it LEGAL? (Vice Roy Gunrey) Sure, but Im gonna ding ya a sportsmanship point if you cant agree thats a bit over the top on rules lawyering.

Dooley wrote:spite

Really?

Tell us how you really feel about people asking how rules work in a rules forum, instead of at the gaming table where they may be able to take advantage of this.

Burnas are Always shooting weapons(they are listed under "Flamer Weapons" in the BRB); they just happen to have a Special rule that also allows them to be Power weapons(a Unique rule that makes them Unusual Power weapons).

So since they are Always Shooting weapons, and they are Template weapons; then they can Fire on Overwatch. Since you did not shoot their templates in the Shooting phase of the turn they fired on overwatch; they are usable as Power weapons this turn.

Kommissar Kel wrote: Burnas are Always shooting weapons(they are listed under "Flamer Weapons" in the BRB); they just happen to have a Special rule that also allows them to be Power weapons(a Unique rule that makes them Unusual Power weapons).

So since they are Always Shooting weapons, and they are Template weapons; then they can Fire on Overwatch. Since you did not shoot their templates in the Shooting phase of the turn they fired on overwatch; they are usable as Power weapons this turn.

That's a very selective reading of the rules. You're choosing to ignore the "Shooting phase" restriction on using the burner as a template on p45, you are also ignoring "not both in the same turn".

Agree with slinky. How does this not trigger, not both in the same turn is beyond me.

You can't have it both ways. If it's is shooting attack, which it obviously is, then it can't be used as a power weapon weapon in the assault phase because of the 'it can't be used at both in the same turn'

General_Chaos wrote:You can't have it both ways. If it's is shooting attack, which it obviously is, then it can't be used as a power weapon weapon in the assault phase because of the 'it can't be used at both in the same turn'

Just to be clear, I wouldn't ever enforce the "Shooting phase" restriction to stop Overwatch as it's text from an old Codex before weapons could be fired at any other time, but I would require a choice between Overwatch and use as PW.

Agreed, it's a 4th codex and I think that's a valid point. However, they also issued a FAQ. Until they clean it up further, and I think they should (I mean really, squigs at Zooming Flyers???)... I play orks, it's my second favorite army and I think that's rediculous!!! However, I digress...



Did I miss something with this....