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robzidious wrote:

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

Again in the first round of combat, Howling Banshees have Init 10, not strike ate Init 10.

DeathReaper wrote:

Traceoftoxin wrote:But unwieldy does not change a model's initiative. It simply changes when it strikes.

A strict reading of RAW that is correct.

But like the Silly RAW of:
"Non-vehicle models without eyes cannot shoot." or "Master of the Forge cannot bolster defenses as the rule refers to a Techmarine."

Or how the old Rage ules from 5th ed broke the game because you could not check LoS outside of the Shooting phase.

It is silly RAW and should probably be altered, as it kind of makes the game unplayable.

I don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as those examples, but I do agree it needs to be faqed. There have been less ambiguous rules with stranger rulings in the past.

It may need to be FAQ'd, but it is not as big a problem as people seem to think it is.

Apart from very few units, its not going to negatively affect them.

Mainly it needs to be FAQ'd to finalise whether it is Init Step of Attacks or Init Step of model where pile in occurs.

Anyone disagree with that final statement?

Kiredor wrote:It may need to be FAQ'd, but it is not as big a problem as people seem to think it is.

Apart from very few units, its not going to negatively affect them.

Mainly it needs to be FAQ'd to finalise whether it is Init Step of Attacks or Init Step of model where pile in occurs.

Anyone disagree with that final statement?

No disagreement, but probably better to FAQ it stating whether those are different at all, or rather to make us use the init step of the weapon always.

They are definitely different things. A model with a PF does not take Initiative Tests at I1. But does the difference matter for Pile In? Thats the difference

Kiredor wrote:They are definitely different things. A model with a PF does not take Initiative Tests at I1. But does the difference matter for Pile In? Thats the difference

Well his initiative step is of course different from his initiative stat, I thought you meant his Attacks/Weapon's initiative step and his Pile In's initiative step.

Kiredor wrote:But does the difference matter for Pile In?

It's not really an issue for models striking at lower than there initiative. They still get to make their pile in move before they swing. Even is the pile in is in different initiative step.

But imagine howling banshees / halbard knights charging. The roll is bad and they only get a couple models into contact /engaged. A 3" pile in will bring several more models into base/engaged. But oops, gotta swing before piling in.

I don't know how often this will actually occur, but it will be pretty sucktastic when it does.

Why are people constantly getting caught up on Howling Banshees? They do not strike at Initiative 10 and have Initiative 5. They ARE Initiative 10 (for the first round anyway). That means in the first round of combat they will pile in at Initiative 10 and (unless they are modeled with a power axe), strike at Initative 10. Afterwards they revert to Initiative 5 until they get into a new combat.

I would go with modifiers from weapons/abilities making your I the same for piling in and attacking, simply because it streamlines what is already a much fiddlier close combat phase than 5th.

robzidious wrote:

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

If its the first assault phase, arent they init 10? The masks give them init 10, not that they strike at init 10.

Also, considering P. 23 tells us that "models make attacks when their initiative step is reached", you Pile in when you are allowed to make attacks.

So Initiative step is synonymous with the initiative that you are allowed to attack on (6 for GK Halberds, 1 for Power Fists Etc.).

DeathReaper wrote:Also, considering P. 23 tells us that "models make attacks when their initiative step is reached", you Pile in when you are allowed to make attacks.

So Initiative step is synonymous with the initiative that you are allowed to attack on (6 for GK Halberds, 1 for Power Fists Etc.).

Yes, this was going to be my next point as well. Thank you.

imweasel wrote:

robzidious wrote:

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.

If its the first assault phase, arent they init 10? The masks give them init 10, not that they strike at init 10.

Yes, that is correct.

p.23 is correct. You make attacks when your init step is reached (whole point of init) however making an attack and a pile-in move are two separate actions.

We are talking about start of init step pile-in also on the same page (pg 23). Says quite plainly that any model whose init is equal to the value of the current init step that isn't already in base contact must pile in. Unwieldy says attacks made with the weapon are made at init 1. It does not say the model equipped with this weapon is init 1. Pile ins and striking are two separate steps which are resolved. Now, it could be that GW intended for models with unwieldy weapons to pile in on init 1 but based on the wording of the rules, that is not the case.

Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Except banshees with power axes now are unresolvable, using this criteria.

imweasel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Except banshees with power axes now are unresolvable, using this criteria.

How so? they seem to interact just fine.

DeathReaper wrote:

imweasel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

Except banshees with power axes now are unresolvable, using this criteria.

How so? they seem to interact just fine.

What init does a banshee pile in and strike at if they have a power axe?

Whatever initiative they strike at, they will pile in at. (Presumably Initiative 1 for an axe).

DeathReaper wrote:Whatever initiative they strike at, they will pile in at. (Presumably Initiative 1 for an axe).

And why not init10 during the first assault do to their masks?

And does logan get to swing all of his attacks at init 5? Even if he only chooses one of his attacks to swing at init5 and the rest at init1?

What init step does logan pile in at? 5? 1? Both?

A model attacking with an unwieldy weapon strikes at I1.

So the mask is meaningless for models with axes.

Logan piles in at whatever Initiative step he attacks at, even if it is 5 and 1, if he attacks at both he piles in at both.

DeathReaper wrote:A model attacking with an unwieldy weapon strikes at I1.

So the mask is meaningless for models with axes.

Logan piles in at whatever Initiative step he attacks at, even if it is 5 and 1, if he attacks at both he piles in at both.

And a banshee mask makes a banshee strike at init 10. Ad nauseum.

I bet folks would scream murder if you tried to do that with logan. Or a techmarine.

It was one of my original arguments.

I'm ok with it though.

Kiredor wrote:So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

Since the Halberds have a long reach, this makes sense to me. They get to smack some people early, then advance in to hit a few more.

imweasel wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:A model attacking with an unwieldy weapon strikes at I1.

So the mask is meaningless for models with axes.

Logan piles in at whatever Initiative step he attacks at, even if it is 5 and 1, if he attacks at both he piles in at both.

And a banshee mask makes a banshee strike at init 10. Ad nauseum.

Right so one rule says I10, the other says I1

Edit: Banshee masks set the models Initiative to 10. Unwieldy strikes at I1 regardless of the models Initiative.

So I1 is when they pile in and strike.

robzidious wrote:Ok, if I'm reading this correctly, each model makes a 3" pile in move starting on its initiative step. The person whose turn it is moves first in cases where models have the same initiative.

Ok, so I take a assault marine sgt with a powerfist. It is unwieldy. The rule for unwieldy says it strikes at init step 1. But the sgts actual init is 4. Based on how I have read it, sounds like the sgt makes his pile-in move on init step 4 but doesn't actually get to swing til init step 1.

Is this correct?

Correct,

Page 23
1. Pile in..." any model whose INITIATIVE is equal to the value of the current Iniaiative step"
2.Attaks , "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached ... NOTE THAT CERTAIN SITUATIONS, ABILITIES AND WEAPONS CAN MODIFY A MODELS INITIATIVE"

Unwieldy: "Modles ATTACKING with this weapon does so at Intiative step 1 ..." - this rule does not modify your initiative (for pile in), simply makes you to ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1.

Conclusions: pile in and attacking are two seperate rules! therefore For SM with PF : Pile in at Initiative step 4, ATTACKING at Initiative step 1.

Re-read P.23 it equates the two making the pile in move the same as when you strike.

DeathReaper wrote:

Actually they do strike at I10 since codex trumps BRB. So they will pile in and strike at I10 when banshee strike, I1 in subsequent rounds.

Codex does not automatically trump the BGB. Specific trumps general. ALL banshees have a mask, making that rule the general one, not all Banshees have an unwieldy weapon, making that rule more specific than the mask. Banshees with unwieldy weapons strike at initiative one.

god.ra wrote:

robzidious wrote:Ok, if I'm reading this correctly, each model makes a 3" pile in move starting on its initiative step. The person whose turn it is moves first in cases where models have the same initiative.

Ok, so I take a assault marine sgt with a powerfist. It is unwieldy. The rule for unwieldy says it strikes at init step 1. But the sgts actual init is 4. Based on how I have read it, sounds like the sgt makes his pile-in move on init step 4 but doesn't actually get to swing til init step 1.

Is this correct?

Correct,

Page 23
1. Pile in..." any model whose INITIATIVE is equal to the value of the current Iniaiative step"
2.Attaks , "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached ... NOTE THAT CERTAIN SITUATIONS, ABILITIES AND WEAPONS CAN MODIFY A MODELS INITIATIVE"

Unwieldy: "Modles ATTACKING with this weapon does so at Intiative step 1 ..." - this rule does not modify your initiative (for pile in), simply makes you to ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1.

Conclusions: pile in and attacking are two seperate rules! therefore For SM with PF : Pile in at Initiative step 4, ATTACKING at Initiative step 1.

CLARIFICATION: PAGE 429 ASSAULT PHASE SUMMARY

Lordhat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Actually they do strike at I10 since codex trumps BRB. So they will pile in and strike at I10 when banshee strike, I1 in subsequent rounds.

Codex does not automatically trump the BGB. Specific trumps general. ALL banshees have a mask, making that rule the general one, not all Banshees have an unwieldy weapon, making that rule more specific than the mask. Banshees with unwieldy weapons strike at initiative one.

Bad Logic. The BRB rule is the general rule as it covers all situations not modified elsewhere. The codex is the specific rule as it only effects things in that codex. So codex wargear rules override BRB wargear rules It does not matter if it is one Banshee with a mask in 10 with axes or one axe with 10 masks, that does not change which is the general or the specific.

Initiative equal to that initiative step /= the initiative they attack at.

The wording is different.

Unfortunately the combat that they use as a demonstration of Initiative Step does not include piling in. So we don't have that as evidence. But it does say that Sargeant Adrax and 4 Space Marines are initiative 4, but that Adrax attacks at I1 due to his powerfist.

My problem is that the Pile In rules do not reference the initiative that they make attacks, only the initiative of the model.

A space marine, even if they have a power fist, is I4.

When you reach Initiative Step 4, all models with an Initiative equal to 4 make a pile in.

Therefore, at Initiative Step 4, Marines pile in.

Remember, the rules for Pile In do not reference a MODELS INITIATIVE STEP, only that at each step you pile in models who have an Initiative EQUAL to that step.

Its incredibly long winded and overwritten to mean that a model piles in at the step that they make their attacks.

As to the Howling Banshees

They are I10 because of the mask, but they make their attacks at I1 due to unwieldy, these rules are NOT IN CONFLICT, therefore Codex vs Rulebook does not matter.

barnowl wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Actually they do strike at I10 since codex trumps BRB. So they will pile in and strike at I10 when banshee strike, I1 in subsequent rounds.

Codex does not automatically trump the BGB. Specific trumps general. ALL banshees have a mask, making that rule the general one, not all Banshees have an unwieldy weapon, making that rule more specific than the mask. Banshees with unwieldy weapons strike at initiative one.

Bad Logic. The BRB rule is the general rule as it covers all situations not modified elsewhere. The codex is the specific rule as it only effects things in that codex. So codex wargear rules override BRB wargear rules It does not matter if it is one Banshee with a mask in 10 with axes or one axe with 10 masks, that does not change which is the general or the specific.

If this is the case, then SM seargents with PF's strike at Ini 4 when assaulting through cover because they have frag grenades.