Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DeathReaper wrote:P. 429 is the summary, read the actual full length rules on P.23

Though initiative value of the current initiative step is equated to the models initiative value that the model strikes at.

P. 429: "All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)." Notice the See P.23.

P. 429: "All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks"

This initiative value and this initiative are equated here on P.429 as well.

Just to throw this out there, but gw summaries are bad examples to use for raw...

If his entire argument was based on the summary it would matter.

Another poster brought up the summary to refute his argument.

Pile in states that 'at each initiative step, each model with an initiative VALUE equal to the current initiative step'.
pg 23.

That answers DRs question about Pile In mentioning initiative Value.

Kiredor wrote:Pile in states that 'at each initiative step, each model with an initiative VALUE equal to the current initiative step'.
pg 23.

That answers DRs question about Pile In mentioning initiative Value.

Maybe re-read P.23 because it does not say that...

It says
"Start of Initiative Step Pile In
At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." P.23

Where does it say Initiative value equal to the current step?

The rules tell you, without considering USR or how other special rules interact with them, how to resolve a combat.

If they did, there would be numerous additional entries on how to resolve every single situation that could arise (I.E. Banshee masks setting you at I1 vs Lash whips/coils setting you at I1, which according to the tyranid FAQ, must be rolled off for)

Unwieldy, as a USR, changes the way you interact with the standard rules. It tells you to strike at I1.

Assaulting through terrain causes you to strike at I1/fight at initiative step 1.

So, we have rules telling us that you strike at an initiative value. They do not, however, tell us what your initiative value is when you strike.

Last paragraph pg.22 states - "Models charging through difficult terrain fight at Initiative step 1".

We know 100% for sure when it is initiative step 1, those models who are unwieldy or having gone through terrain, make their attacks.

Top of pg. 23 states - "At the start of each Initiative step,...(cont)"

We start at I10 and work our way down, as stated on Pg 22. Models strike at their initiative, unless otherwise indicated.

"... any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step,...(cont)"

This does not reference when you are striking. IT only matters what your initiative is.

"...that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move."

These are our instructions for making Pile In moves, in regards to Initiative steps.


Right now the counter argument is that,

When you pile in = Initiative = Initiative step = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = Initiative = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = When you strike in combat

I fail to see where in the rulebook it tell us where the above is true.

In the example on Pg. 22 it gives us the charging through terrain example.

It says, "... all of the Guardians will striek at Initiative 1 as they have charged through difficult terrain. This only affects their Initiative step in the phase..."

This tells us that,

Striking at/Attacking at I1 = Being initiative step 1

However, our pile in moves do not reference you making your pile in move at your initiative step. They actually do the exact opposite, and tell you to move at your initiative, during that step.

So, initiative step 4 - Any model with Initiative 4 piles in from attackers. Any model with Initiative 4 piles in from defenders. Any model striking at/attacking at/fighting in initiative step 4 makes their attacks.

That's all it says. Pile in moves never reference your model's initiative step. They reference the Initiative step sub-phase of the fight sub-phase, but never a model's initiative step.

Conclusion

You strike at, attack at, fight at, your initiative step is at, are all synonymous.

You pile in is at your initiative, regardless of initiative step.

What about lashes or whip coils that change your initiative when you reach base contact?

Your I4 Marines get charged by Wraiths. They make their pile in at I4 .... as soon as they reach base contact they are I1.

What they move in and stop ? then wait till initiative 1?

Tyrs13 wrote:What about lashes or whip coils that change your initiative when you reach base contact?

Your I4 Marines get charged by Wraiths. They make their pile in at I4 .... as soon as they reach base contact they are I1.

What they move in and stop ? then wait till initiative 1?

RAW, yes.

The entire assault section is poorly written and rife with tomfoolery.

This is silly ... they should have left it that you charge in and then your enemy piles in to strike at initiative.

Their stupid 10 step process was done in 3 steps last edition.

Charge
Pile In
Strike

These are all direct from the rulebook

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't alreadyinbasecontactwithanenemymodel,mustmakeaPile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1

Traceoftoxin wrote:"... any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step,...(cont)"

This does not reference when you are striking. IT only matters what your initiative is.

False. Did you actually read any of my posts?

Traceoftoxin wrote:"...that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move."

These are our instructions for making Pile In moves, in regards to Initiative steps.

Good, now follow along.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Right now the counter argument is that,

When you pile in = Initiative = Initiative step = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = Initiative = When you strike in combat

Therefore

When you pile in = When you strike in combat

Good, you are getting it.

Traceoftoxin wrote:I fail to see where in the rulebook it tell us where the above is true.

Ohh so close yet so far.

Let me sum up.

"Start of Initiative Step Pile In
At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." P.23

This tells us that any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step gets to pile in.

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

So a models Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat, and any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step must make a Pile In move.

The rules equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

For a Power fist this is I1.

So a Power Fist will pile in, and attack at I1.

A Halberd wielding GK paladin will attack, and pile in at I6

Unless you have rules references to override this, please retract your statements.

DeathReaper wrote:
The rules equate a models initiative to being when he attacks in combat, and when he makes a pile in move.

You are inferring this. It never says this. I explicitly explained this.

[Edit] As I stated before, I agree the intention is as you state, but RAW, it is not. You are saying because A=B, and B=C, and C=D, that A=D. This is untrue.

[Edit 2] Your initiative tells you to attack at I4, but this wargear, says no, you attack at I1. It's a case of specific overriding generic. The generic rule is you pile in then attack, but wait, you don't attack now, you attack at I1. You still piled in because it's your initiative, but now you're attacking at I1.

He is *NOT inferring it, the rules explicitly state that in *very* clear terms.

I even provided the exact rule quotes...

Here, I will give them again...

These are all direct from the rulebook, cut and paste:

any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models. etc...
(you check for engagement at your initiative step

Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached,
(You attack at your initiative step)

So,the rules say that you pile in, check engagement, and attack, all on your initiative step. The *only* way to follow all of these rules, is if the PFist sgt has an initiative step of 1

coredump wrote:any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move
(You pile in at your initiative step)

An initiative step is essentially a subphase of the fight subphase.

This rule does not ask what initiative step you are fighting at. It asks what your initiative is.

We know that you determine initiative step by looking at your initiative.

We know that several rules change your initiative step. This does not change your initiative. Nowhere does it say it changes anything but the initiative step at which you fight.

I've quoted all the same rules in my post, if you read it fully you'll see I am reading the exact same things as you.

You cannot say A=D just because A=B, B=C, and C=D. That's math, not language.

Once again, I agree that is the intention, but that is not how it is written. At no point are we told that your initiative changes, that your initiative is the same as your initiative step (although we know your initiative step is derived from your initiative).

The only way to make it read how you say is to assume that your initiative changes if your initiative step changes, or that "...any model whose Initiative is equal..." was a typo and meant to be something along the lines of, "...any model who is fighting in this initiative step..."

Actually thats transitive logic, which does apply ni English


They are made equivalent, and it is perfectly valid to use that equivalence consistently.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually thats transitive logic, which does apply ni English


They are made equivalent, and it is perfectly valid to use that equivalence consistently.

So when called upon to make sweeping advance if I'm a lone powerfist sergeant I use I1 because initiative = initiative step. Got it.

Nope, thats a strawman and you know it. Logical fallacies dont make good arguments.

In the context of making attacks, you would be correct. How about keeping it in the context of the rules? That would be a help.

Tyrs13 wrote:This is silly ... they should have left it that you charge in and then your enemy piles in to strike at initiative.

Their stupid 10 step process was done in 3 steps last edition.

Charge
Pile In
Strike

Yes, but this new system was designed to kill the models in the middle of the fray so it was more .... wait for it .... cinematic.

If everyone piled in first and then you killed all the models in the middle, necrons and orks would never get to swing against most units, as all of the models in b2b and 2" out would be killed off first. This would leave this giant void of models outside of combat not getting to do anything. This new process is designed to give lower initiative armies a chance to fill in the void of casualties caused from higher initiative swings.

Traceoftoxin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually thats transitive logic, which does apply ni English


They are made equivalent, and it is perfectly valid to use that equivalence consistently.

So when called upon to make sweeping advance if I'm a lone powerfist sergeant I use I1 because initiative = initiative step. Got it.

You should read the Unwieldy rule again. Here, I'll quote it for you.

Amodel attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1,unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker.

Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

No. But you pile in on the same step you attack. You must attack at I1, therefore you pile in at I1.

rigeld2 wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

No. But you pile in on the same step you attack. You must attack at I1, therefore you pile in at I1.

Ok, I know this has been stated before, but the underlined part - where is it in the BRB?

I agree, I just need to be able to cite it for my group.

Pages 22 and 23. When you read them together, then in context they equate init and init steps.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is a Sweeping Advance an attack?

Is Piling In?

No. But you pile in on the same step you attack. You must attack at I1, therefore you pile in at I1.

Ok, I know this has been stated before, but the underlined part - where is it in the BRB?

I agree, I just need to be able to cite it for my group.

Dude... Really???

I have quoted the *exact* rules... Twice... on this page...

How did you completely miss them??

They are not 'inferrfed', they are not paraphrased, they require no assumptions....

I did a copy and paste. Look above your post.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, thats a strawman and you know it. Logical fallacies dont make good arguments.

In the context of making attacks, you would be correct. How about keeping it in the context of the rules? That would be a help.

To achieve the end state you are all describing you must assume that the term initiative step is synonymous with initiative. There is no other way to look at it that results in the situation you describe.

The rule does not state, "At your initiative step, pile in".

It states, that at each initiative step (Which is describing each step as a sub-phase of the fight sub-phase) if your initiative is equal to the current step you pile in.

It makes no mention of your initiative step at all, just the initiative step that is currently occuring. So to assume they mean you pile in based off of YOUR initiative step is to assume that YOUR INITIATIVE is the same as YOUR INITIATIVE STEP.

Sweeping advance tells you to compare Initiative. If your initiative is the same as your initiative step, then you would use I1 for sweeping advance with unwieldy.

It clearly describes the initiative steps as being something of a sub-phase, with there being 10 steps and you work out who fights on what step. Pile in makes no mention of when you fight, it asks if your I is equal to the current step. Period.

It is neither a strawman argument, nor a logical fallacy. It is completely relevant.

P.26 "When a Sweeping Advance is performed, both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their unmodified Initiative to the result."

SA Specifically tells you to use Unmodified initiative, your point is moot.

DeathReaper wrote:P.26 "When a Sweeping Advance is performed, both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their unmodified Initiative to the result."

SA Specifically tells you to use Unmodified initiative, your point is moot.

Touche. I concede this to you.

So after having a (quite) a few drinks, re-reading the posts and the rulebook (including the example that has a PF wielding Sarge. I'm jumping off the difference train, and siding with same time.

Per pp 21 - 23: You roll for charge distance (considering difficult terrain if necessary) then move the assaulting unit. You only need to Pile In at an Initiative step if you are not already in b2b.

Per p 23 2nd column: Models attack when their Initiative step is reached - "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative"

Per p 23 1st column: at the start of each Initiative step if not already in b2b you Pile in.

Taking in the contents of pp 21 - 23: if necessary, you pile in and attack at the particular Initiative step determined by your abilities and weapons. You Pile in and attack during the same step.

I'm reluctantly jumping on the pile-in at the same time you are supposed to strike. It just makes things so much easier.

I am not totally sold on this. For instance, a pf DOESN'T modify a model's initiative (nor any other unwiedly weapon), despite what pg 23 says.

This also leaves a few things broken, but that's hardly surprising coming from gw....

I have a question for people.

This is a question that should be easy to answer.

If the point you attack is the same as your initiative step,

and your initiative step is the same as your Initiative.

Then it equates that the point you attack is your initiative?

What makes something forcing you to attack at a set initiative, such as Unwieldy, override something that sets your initiative? Such as a banshee mask?

If Attack at Init 1 means Initiative 1 in the assault.

Then Initiative 10 in the assault means Attack at Init 10.

These two rules must be the same if all things are equitable?
(Im fully with Unwieldy making a normal model I1, that's not my issue.)

I know they should be different, I'm just not able to figure out the logic, other than that's how it's always worked.

Basically, if any modifier to initiative or initiative step or step of attacking modifies all of them, how do we decide which happens first?

What am I missing?