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DeathReaper wrote:Except that the right column on P.23 equates the two terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and
weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

/thread.
Another "OMG GW Y U MAKE RULES LOOPHOLE" that isn't there at all.

Pile in does not reference A MODEL'S initiative step.

I agree that a model's initiative step is when they attack.

But Pile In doesn't care what initiative step a model is.

You pile in when you reach an initiative step EQUAL TO THE INITIATIVE OF THE MODEL.

Once again, NOT THE MODELS STEP,

Thus Unwieldy does not effect pile in.

Read the page 429 !
Cleary states Initiative VALUE!
- All models with this Initiative value now Pile in
- All engaged models with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks ....

Unwieldy, makes you to ATTACK at I1 does not change your Initiative VALUE.

Again Pile in and Attacking are 2 separate rules with different conditions affecting them.

Read page 22. Charging through Difficult terrain, is only referring to attacking at I1 not pile in!

Right, they attack at I1 so their initiative step is I1.

At each Initiative STEP, you pile in models with an Initiative VALUE.

At each Initiative STEP, you roll attacks for each model attacking at that initiative STEP.

Unwieldy effects STEP, not VALUE.

Thus does not effect Pile In.

Having double checked Unwieldy, it seems you're right.
Models with a Force Halbard would still pile in at I6 though.

The rules on P.22 and 23 equate the two.

From P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

and of course P.23 "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a rnodel's Initiative."

P.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

The summary helps clear this up:

Starting at Initiative step 10, count down through the steps towards 1 until you reach anlnitiative value that one or more participants not involved in a challenge have (see page 22).

All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23).

All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks equal to their Attacks characteristic plus any bonus Attacks they are entitled to (see page 24).

This shows that the two are synonymous. Pile in moves and striking are done at the same initiative value. So if you strike at I1 you pile in at I1.

The rules on Pg 23 say differently.

Kiredor wrote:The rules on Pg 23 say differently.

No it does not.

P.23 equates the two.

"Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

you can't pile in before your initiative step can you?

When is a models Initiative step?
When it makes its attacks.

So you pile in when you make your attacks, and you make your attacks when your Initiative step is reached.

Yes, but the rules for Pile In do not reference a models initiative step.

edit: Or rather, the Pile In rules do not occur at a models initiative step, but at the step equal to a models initiative.

In fact, unwieldy does not change a models initiative step at all.

Only the step when a model makes its attacks.

By the rules, a Space Marine Sergeant is I4, even with a powerfist.

Thus anything that references his Initiative uses this value, even Pile In, as it DOES NOT CARE WHEN A MODEL ATTACKS.

Kiredor wrote:Yes, but the rules for Pile In do not reference a models initiative step.

You're ignoring his point.

DeathReaper is saying that Initiative Step and Initiative are the same thing.
Therefore anything referencing Initiative Step is also referencing Initiative.

DR - feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

Note - I'm not trying to involve myself, just trying to prevent a misconception

P.23 and P.22 still equate the models Initiative value as being the same as its initiative step.

Or did you miss P. 22:

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

P.22 says it all. attacks are made at the models Initiative value, which is when models Pile in.

The Unwieldy rule does not modify a Models Initiative Step.

Only the point at which the model makes its attacks.

Also Pile In references the model's initiative.

This is not changed by Unwieldy

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same thing, then a model with an Unwieldy weapon has an Initiative Step equal to its Initiative.

But it resolves its attacks at I1.

Otherwise the way both Pile In and Unwieldy are written is completely unnecessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The issue is, DR, that we are applying a more complex rule to the ones you are quoting.

Unwieldy changes SOME aspects of this, not all of them

For a model with no further rules, you are correct.

But when we add Unwieldy to the mix it changes.

An I4 model now has a special rule that means it ATTACKS at Initiative Step 1, this does not change its base Initiative, or even its base Initiative Step. If they wanted Pile In to occur at the point a model attacks, it would have been simple for them to say that.

Rigeld, please join the discussion. I beleive you would have valuable input.

DR, please dont take me starting this thread as a slight from our other postings. I believe that if these 3 questions can be answered, it should cover init pile in swinging.

Kiredor wrote:The Unwieldy rule does not modify a Models Initiative Step.

Only the point at which the model makes its attacks.

Also Pile In references the model's initiative.

This is not changed by Unwieldy

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same thing, then a model with an Unwieldy weapon has an Initiative Step equal to its Initiative.

But it resolves its attacks at I1.

Otherwise the way both Pile In and Unwieldy are written is completely unnecessary.

We know that a model strikes at it's Initiative Step. Agree?
We know an Unwieldy weapon strikes at Initiative Step 1. Agree?
We know that Initiative and Initiative Step are the same thing. Agree?
Pile In happens at your Initiative, which we know is the same thing as Initiative Step. Agree?
Therefore we know that a model using an Unwieldy weapon piles in and attacks at Initiative (Step) 1.

edit: Again, I'm summarising DR's arguments, I haven't tried to put my own thoughts in here yet. DR, feel free to correct me.

Rigeld, ill answer in order

A - For a model with no rules modifying this, yes.

B - A model makes its ATTACKS at Initiative Step 1, yes.

C - They are NOT interchangeable.

D - No, because Pile In occurs at the Initiative Step equal to a Models Initiative VALUE. Not a models initiative step.

E - See above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat" is not reversable.

The point at which a model makes its attacks DOES NOT DETERMINE ITS INITIATIVE.

Kiredor wrote:C - They are NOT interchangeable.

Please explain why GW uses them interchangeably on page 22 and 23.

As I, and rig have stated P.22 and P.23 use Initiative and Initiative Step interchangeably.

The quotes show this to be true:

P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

P.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

Initiative = when he attacks = initiative step.

@imweasel: none taken, it is a complicated issue.

DeathReaper wrote:The rules on P.22 and 23 equate the two.

From P.22 "a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

and of course P.23 "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a rnodel's Initiative."

P.23 "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached"

The summary helps clear this up:

Starting at Initiative step 10, count down through the steps towards 1 until you reach anlnitiative value that one or more participants not involved in a challenge have (see page 22).

All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23).

All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks equal to their Attacks characteristic plus any bonus Attacks they are entitled to (see page 24).

This shows that the two are synonymous. Pile in moves and striking are done at the same initiative value. So if you strike at I1 you pile in at I1.

no, they are clearly two separate rules, please point out which rule in the book modify the VALUE of Initiative?

Page 22, difficult terrain: ".... must ATTACK at Initiative STEP 1, does not mention Pile in whatsoever.

Page 23, Initiative Step Pile in, Initiative VALUE= pile in step, sure if your I=1 the you pile in and attack with one, but UNWEILDY makes you to ATTACK at Initiative Step 1, does not affect you Initiative Value ! so for SM I4 with PF, you pile in with Initiative value 4 (no modification, even if they did not have grenades and if they charge through difficult terrain) and you ATTACK with initiative 1 due to Unwieldy RAW.

There is no rule, at least as far as i recall in the book which is affecting you INITIATIVE VALUE, there are rules which make you to ATTACK at different Initiative STEPs like Difficult terrain.

godra read my last post that shows:

Initiative = when he attacks = initiative step.

It is all right there.

As above. GW equate the terms Initiative and Initiative Step

If you are an I4 model with an I1 weapon, you pile in and attack at I1.

So we can assume anything that modifies when a model attacks also modifies their initiative?

Edit: Meaning Howling Banshees on the charge with power axes are now both Initiative 10 and Initative 1? so roll off?

Im confused as to why they would use different definitions of Initiative Step and pile in, if there was no way that a model could have different values for them.

Maybe thats where I'm mistaken.

No roll off, just I1

DeathReaper wrote:godra read my last post that shows:

Initiative = when he attacks = initiative step.

It is all right there.

Again, you have two separate rules

1 is Pile in with Initiative value at Initiative step (there is no rule in the book which is affecting Initiative VALUE)
2 is Attacking with Initiative value at initiative step, and here, your modifications for Difficult terrain or Unwieldy apply,

Unwieldy = Does not change your initiative VALUE, is says :"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative STEP 1...." it does not say "his initiative value =1", thus this is not affecting Pile in! (Initiative Value)

If we follow your logic then every model with Unwieldy if is forced to do Characteristic check (in close combat) based on his initiative Value would have to do it on I1... (Initiative step 1 = when he attacks 1= Initiative1) And that is wrong.
Anyway, I'm going to bed enough of this BS.

But why?

If Initiative and Initiative Step are the same, both of them do the same thing.

We now have two rules that modify initiative, and two rules that modify the initiative that you attack. Thus we have a conflict.
(if Initiative and Initiative Step are the same).

Why does Unwieldy take precedence, if both rules mean the same thing? (Modify I)

Initiative and Initiative Step have to be different.

god.ra wrote:Again, you have two separate rules

1 is Pile in with Initiative value at Initiative step (there is no rule in the book which is affecting Initiative VALUE)

Re-read initiative step pile it, it does not mention anything about the models initiative value.

P.23 talks about the value of the current initiative step.

DeathReaper wrote:

god.ra wrote:Again, you have two separate rules

1 is Pile in with Initiative value at Initiative step (there is no rule in the book which is affecting Initiative VALUE)

Re-read initiative step pile it, it does not mention anything about the models initiative value.

It does Page 429!

- ALL MODELS WITH HIS INITIATIVE VALUE NOW PILE IN

P. 429 is the summary, read the actual full length rules on P.23

Though initiative value of the current initiative step is equated to the models initiative value that the model strikes at.

P. 429: "All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)." Notice the See P.23.

P. 429: "All engaged models (see page 23) with this Initiative now get to make a number of Attacks"

This initiative value and this initiative are equated here on P.429 as well.

DeathReaper wrote:P 429 is the summary, read the actual full length rules on P.23

Though initiative value of the current initiative step is equated to the models initiative value that the model strikes at.

"All models with this Initiative value now Pile In (see page 23)." Notice the See P.23.

If we follow your logic then every model with Unwieldy if is forced to do Characteristic check (in close combat) based on his initiative Value would have to do it on I1... (Initiative step 1 = when he attacks 1= Initiative1) And that is wrong.
Anyway, I'm going to bed enough of this BS.
Good night.

They only equate the terms for pile in and attacking. they are not equated for anything else. To do so would violate the permissive ruleset.