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Deleted, people have already said what I would have.

Ascalam wrote:The SW codex affects only SW (codex specific rules) unless they FAQ it as working that way for all units with multiple 'characters' in it, which they haven't to date.

So any evidence that counters the "automatic unit of characters" aspect of things just because the unit table says In (ch) is meaningless then? The only difference between wolf guard and nobz is that they *can* get a unit leader. If, as the interpretation says, any unit of models with the In (ch) in the table is a unit full of characters already, why then is it necessary for the leader of a wolf guard unit to specifically be given the "character" rule then? This has nothing to do with "only Space Wolf codex" and everything to do with the blanket statement of "obviously a unit of models that have In (ch) must be a unit of all characters" not being accurate. If that were the case a leader for a Wolf guard unit wouldn't need to be given the "character" rule at all because HE WOULD ALREADY BE ONE. Therefore the blanket statement is WRONG.

If it is wrong in the case of wolf guard, why exactly would it then extrapolate to assume that it isn't wrong for ork nobz or other units? That argument makes zero sense. You can rationalize it all you want, but don't expect anyone to let you get away with it.

Skriker

This question piqued my curiosity. I even called my local GW to investigate. They all said that as currently written, all Nobz, even those in a Nob Squad are characters. Not a huge fan of this myself, but until a new FAQ is released regarding Nob Squadz, i think we're stuck

Skriker wrote:

Ascalam wrote:The SW codex affects only SW (codex specific rules) unless they FAQ it as working that way for all units with multiple 'characters' in it, which they haven't to date.

So any evidence that counters the "automatic unit of characters" aspect of things just because the unit table says In (ch) is meaningless then? The only difference between wolf guard and nobz is that they *can* get a unit leader. If, as the interpretation says, any unit of models with the In (ch) in the table is a unit full of characters already, why then is it necessary for the leader of a wolf guard unit to specifically be given the "character" rule then? This has nothing to do with "only Space Wolf codex" and everything to do with the blanket statement of "obviously a unit of models that have In (ch) must be a unit of all characters" not being accurate. If that were the case a leader for a Wolf guard unit wouldn't need to be given the "character" rule at all because HE WOULD ALREADY BE ONE. Therefore the blanket statement is WRONG.

If it is wrong in the case of wolf guard, why exactly would it then extrapolate to assume that it isn't wrong for ork nobz or other units? That argument makes zero sense. You can rationalize it all you want, but don't expect anyone to let you get away with it.

Skriker

Wolf guard are not nobz. Just like they aren't paladins, or chaos terminator champions, or necron lords. Do wolf guard rules apply to any of those units? NOOOOO!!!

This also makes for wound shenagans in CC with Nobz units....

With the "Glorious Intervention" rule: Nob 1 takes a wound in the first round of a Challenge. Next round, Nob 2 GI's, taking Nob 1's place..... and so on until the opponant dies or fights a dozen more challenges.

Kevlar wrote:The SW codex affects only SW (codex specific rules) unless they FAQ it as working that way for all units with multiple 'characters' in it, which they haven't to date.
Wolf guard are not nobz. Just like they aren't paladins, or chaos terminator champions, or necron lords. Do wolf guard rules apply to any of those units? NOOOOO!!!

Feel free to continue to be obtuse about this. Is this really rocket science? Really?

Claim #1: In (ch) means unit of characters! Yay

Fact: A leader in a wolf guard unit needs to be given the "character" rule despite supposedly being from a unit of all characters due to Claim #1.

Therefore: Claim #1 is not a valid claim because in at least one obvious example it is false.

The Space Wolf codex rule doesn't take anything away from the wolf guard unit at all. It just gives something to the wolf guard unit leader, which makes it clear that the wolf guard don't start as a unit of all characers despite Claim #1. Thus that kind of puts the kibosh on Claim #1, since if it is clear that at least 1 unit that is marked as In (ch) is not a unit of characters it is just being silly to try to claim that it still means other units marked that way are. If the Space Wolves FAQ didn't specifically say that the leader has to be given the "character" rule it would all be open to interpretation, but seeing a prime example of how the claim doesn't work really kills the argument and makes people continue to claim it look really foolish. You need to get over the fact that the Space Wolves FAQ is involved, becasue it is a tangential look at Claim #1. It could be in ANY codex and would still have the same implications.

Trying to claim that Nobz are different is asinine when the evidence being used are all the same tables from the Unit listings in the BRB. Wolf Guard and Nobz are both marked as In (ch) in those listings. As such they are exactly the same according to those tables. A tangential rule in the Space Wolves codex makes it clear that Wolf Guard, which are marked exactly the same as Nobz in the unit listings are clearly not a "unit of characters". Now we go back to the listings that give the units the same In (ch) rules. So what is different about them again? Nothing according to the info these tables are giving us. So why then would nobz be a unit of characters again? Oh because they aren't Wolf Guard. Yeah great arguement there...There is no valid logic where using In (ch) to "prove" unit is a unit of characters is valid when in the one instance we have more information it is clear that a unit is not.

Skriker

Also, every single Nob in the unit gets to make Look Out Sir rolls...

I absolutely hate it but RAW, units of Nobz are characters. I would call it cheesy/annoying as we're essentially talking about units of squad leaders. It doesn't make much sense, logically. It's going to slow down games immensely - you'll have to roll two separate dice for every single wound, one at a time (Look Out Sir, followed by the save). 10 wounds? Roll 20 dice, one at a time. And I believe that this was not Games Workshop's intention.
However, there's nothing explicitly stating that it doesn't work this way. We can only point at the Space Wolf FAQ or comment on the wording in the character section of the Rulebook.

You can refuse to play against a unit of characters, but it's no different from people who refuse to play against special characters or certain armies. We're stuck with this stupid (imo) ruling until GW puts out an FAQ stating explicitly that it doesn't work.

greg0985 wrote:This question piqued my curiosity. I even called my local GW to investigate. They all said that as currently written, all Nobz, even those in a Nob Squad are characters. Not a huge fan of this myself, but until a new FAQ is released regarding Nob Squadz, i think we're stuck

And we all know how valid and accurate GW store employee rulings are on the rules. If you call a different store and ask you'll probably get a completely different answer.

Skriker

Skriker wrote:Yeah strawman backed up by very CLEAR evidence that a unit of models are not characters just because they have the In (ch) listing on the table can be seen in the Space Wolves Codex. If a unit of In (ch) models were all characters then there would not be a rule listed in the Space Wolves codex that specifically says that the leader of a Wolf Guard unit gets the character special rule, because he would *already* be a character. But of course facts against your position shouldn't get in the way of you trying to cheat. Just don't be surprised when people smack you for it.

Helps if you read a whole post instead of just a small part of it. I gave a rational by the codex and a clear example of how the interpretation from the table is wrong as spelled out in a codex FAQ. That is not a strawman. That is called a supported argument and position.

Skriker

Was this covered in the Ork FaQ?

Nope, the Ork FAQ doesn't mention a thing.

Skriker, the problem with your argument is that you're using logic and common sense. While I completely agree with what you're saying, you can't use logic to prove something like this.

The reference page of the rulebook list Nobz as characters. Does it explicitly state anywhere that units of Nobz are not characters? No. Until we see that, people will claim otherwise...and there's no unarguable method of proving them wrong.

Siphen wrote:Nope, the Ork FAQ doesn't mention a thing.

Skriker, the problem with your argument is that you're using logic and common sense. While I completely agree with what you're saying, you can't use logic to prove something like this.

The reference page of the rulebook list Nobz as characters. Does it explicitly state anywhere that units of Nobz are not characters? No. Until we see that, people will claim otherwise...and there's no unarguable method of proving them wrong.

This is pretty much it. It's the difference between RAW and RAI.

its just a thing GW didn't notice when they were making the rules, they didnt think of that scenario as with many other things in previous editions... what can you do now? nothing because were playing by their rules and there will be many more discussions like this one but it all comes down to this - RAW, so if they miss something its still RAW

My gaming community saw this right away....

And had absolutely no problem with it.

Nobz are a squad of characters just like Paladins.

Boo hoo for the Space Puppies, guess they'll just have to settle with the millions of other character models they can take.

How did wolf guard even come up? They aren't Orks. Or in the Ork FAQs for that matter.

Spae wolves were brought up because of a similar rule.
I Forsee that GW didnt overlook this, but cared not about it because Orks are due for a new codex.
Also for reference, i probably wouldnt play against anyone who is purposly trying to slow the game down on one unit for a cheesy interpretation of the rules that everyone else thinks is asinine.

Purposly screwing with people = Poor sport = TFG = Jerk = why am i wasting my time trying to play a game with you, cause if this rule is causing this much dread think about what else could come up?

do people really wanna do that?

So by the same reasoning if I upgrade my unit of 10 chaos terminators to all be champions you are saying they can't be characters because of some obscure wolf guard rule? Especially since wolf guard operate like no other army? I think you are just looking for reasons to whinge. It is pretty obvious from any ruling that nobz are characters for all intents and purposes, even full units of them.

Siphen wrote:Also, every single Nob in the unit gets to make Look Out Sir rolls...

I absolutely hate it but RAW, units of Nobz are characters. I would call it cheesy/annoying as we're essentially talking about units of squad leaders. It doesn't make much sense, logically. It's going to slow down games immensely - you'll have to roll two separate dice for every single wound, one at a time (Look Out Sir, followed by the save). 10 wounds? Roll 20 dice, one at a time. And I believe that this was not Games Workshop's intention.
However, there's nothing explicitly stating that it doesn't work this way. We can only point at the Space Wolf FAQ or comment on the wording in the character section of the Rulebook.

You can refuse to play against a unit of characters, but it's no different from people who refuse to play against special characters or certain armies. We're stuck with this stupid (imo) ruling until GW puts out an FAQ stating explicitly that it doesn't work.

It doesn't work like this unless mixed saves are in the group. If they don't have a 'Eavy armor in front essentially. You'd roll in batches of X (If there's 6 nobz in front with normal armor, you'd roll 12 at a time, one per wound they have.) than begin LoS saves after the unsaved wounds are doled out.

The only time it's rolled one at a time is if there's mixed saved in the front, and if there's say, two to three 4+ nobz in front, you'd roll 4-6 at a time, not one, than dole out unsaved wounds again..So thus you can only do unsaved wounds being doled out if there's only one at the front.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/07/back-to-basics-removing-models-from.html#more

Nightrave wrote:Spae wolves were brought up because of a similar rule.
I Forsee that GW didnt overlook this, but cared not about it because Orks are due for a new codex.
Also for reference, i probably wouldnt play against anyone who is purposly trying to slow the game down on one unit for a cheesy interpretation of the rules that everyone else thinks is asinine.

Purposly screwing with people = Poor sport = TFG = Jerk = why am i wasting my time trying to play a game with you, cause if this rule is causing this much dread think about what else could come up?

do people really wanna do that?

1) It's not purposly slowing the game down. The game is already slowed by consistent single die rolling.

2) It's not a "cheesey" interpretation... It's THE interpretation.

3)"Everyone else"? A few upset players in a forum hardly counts as "everyone".

If you don't want to play the RAW that's fine. But then you're not really playing 40k. You're playing a house rules game.

So...does this mean that chaos terminator champions can each accept/issue challenges? Wow...a unit of Tzeentch Terminator champions is not friendly...ow. Since their champions are the equivalents of sergeants, that just sounds dirty. Anyone try this yet? Still pouring over the book, so nobody yell at me if I'm wrong!!

timetowaste85 wrote:So...does this mean that chaos terminator champions can each accept/issue challenges? Wow...a unit of Tzeentch Terminator champions is not friendly...ow. Since their champions are the equivalents of sergeants, that just sounds dirty. Anyone try this yet? Still pouring over the book, so nobody yell at me if I'm wrong!!

Looks like the answer is yes. Anything in the Choas Space Marine codex that is a "champion" is "In(ch)".

DeffDred wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:So...does this mean that chaos terminator champions can each accept/issue challenges? Wow...a unit of Tzeentch Terminator champions is not friendly...ow. Since their champions are the equivalents of sergeants, that just sounds dirty. Anyone try this yet? Still pouring over the book, so nobody yell at me if I'm wrong!!

Looks like the answer is yes. Anything in the Choas Space Marine codex that is a "champion" is "In(ch)".

*strokes chin* You don't say...

I dont understand how some people can think that GW didnt intend for Nobs to be taken in squads of characters? I mean there's entrys in the Rulebook for units of characters, so why would people think otherwise?

Now if the rulebook didn't address units of characters, that would be another story.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really see how this tarpit works.

The Challenge rules say that 'only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another'. I don't see where it says they can't strike blows against anyone else.
They are considered to be in base contact with only each other, so will be murdering each other first. But won't excess wounds still be passed around to the next nearest models?

If it works like fantasy, the two models in the challenge can only attack each other, but the rest of the squads fight each other, just can't target the two characters locked in the challenge. Anything else doesn't make sense-both units sit there watching each other and have a beer while watching the bosses slug it out?

Agreed. The two models in the challenge fight each other, while the rest of the models in the units fight each other.

I'm just saying that once one of the characters has killed the other, any excess damage it caused will be carried over to the squad. So you can't tarpit down some gigantic CC monster of doom by throwing him a little sergeant every turn.

Ork players. Eternally slowing the game down for everyone else.

Arson Fire wrote:Agreed. The two models in the challenge fight each other, while the rest of the models in the units fight each other.

I'm just saying that once one of the characters has killed the other, any excess damage it caused will be carried over to the squad. So you can't tarpit down some gigantic CC monster of doom by throwing him a little sergeant every turn.

Yes, you can. The excess wounds from a challenge are not applied to the squad. That is the whole purpose of a sacrificial sergeant, he can slow down the super killing machine of death for a turn. If you have a whole unit of sergeants, well, have fun killing them one at a time.

Really? I'm looking through the challenge section again now, but I can't see where it says excess wounds from a challenge are ignored.

Could you give me a page number or rules quote or something?

Yeah, so...

I was planning on using Meganobz anyways, since they're cheaper (in points, anyways) than my obsolete diversified Nobz mob I built in 5e. So that avoids this whole mess since MANZ aren't listed as characters.

Arson Fire wrote:Really? I'm looking through the challenge section again now, but I can't see where it says excess wounds from a challenge are ignored.

Could you give me a page number or rules quote or something?

only thing I could find is on p.26 it states 'Neither do Wounds in excess of a model's Wounds characteristic; only the Wounds actually suffered by enemy models count'. This is in regard to combat in general but there isnt anything in the challenge part which would contradict this.

Interpretation and common sense aside if we think about this fluff wise you can see where this rule for a unit of nobs to fight the character of another army one at a time could have been left on purpose though. Same for Paladins Honor and all that junk...

Nob1 - "dis oomie is mine"
Nob1 dies
Nob2 - "now dis oomie is mine"
Nob2 dies
Nob3 - "i bet i can kill dat oomie"
etc..
etc..

Orks would do this kinda stuff, just to be the baddest ork around.