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So basicly since nobz are considered characters now, a nob squad could constantly challenge your character who could otherwise mop up the entire squad... since the challenge rule allows wounds only to be allocated to challengers themselves, it means your epic warlord has to kill them one by one... AND therefore this gives orkz the opportunity to create some major tarpits that locks your main anti-tarpit character...

I doubt that any single model survives getting "tarpitted" by nobz for more than two rounds of combat.

I think that would only apply to the units where Nobs are the equivalent of a sergeant not nobs overall. Not that that wouldn't be entertaining, each one wanting to have a go at this big smasshy git wot thinks hes better than the lads.

Yup, that's not how it works, n0t_u has it right. Nobs are characters in a boyz squad because they are counted as sergeants, but in a squad of nobs, none of them can specifically be challenged.

Jidmah wrote:I doubt that any single model survives getting "tarpitted" by nobz for more than two rounds of combat.

Because if nobz attack a warlord accompanied by his squad, he can get tarpitted while the rest of his squad is anihilated for the price of one cheapest nob, so the nobs can focus him in the next turn of combat and tear him apart.

n0t_u wrote:I think that would only apply to the units where Nobs are the equivalent of a sergeant not nobs overall. Not that that wouldn't be entertaining, each one wanting to have a go at this big smasshy git wot thinks hes better than the lads.

Currently the rulebook says that nobz are characters, and errata doesent say anything about nob squads having their own leader character...

Cerebrium wrote:Yup, that's not how it works, n0t_u has it right. Nobs are characters in a boyz squad because they are counted as sergeants, but in a squad of nobs, none of them can specifically be challenged.

Thats what common sense would say but according to RAW they are characters since there is no statline for the nob ''sargeant''

Then you've just answered your own question. Nob squads have no leader, therefore they can't be challenged.

Nob squad is basically a squad of characters, since there is no statline for a non character nob. (read my edit on last post)

Check page 413 of 6th edition rulebook for nob statline it says type - In(ch) wich means infantry character.

No, it's not. It's just a regular unit.

Let's take Wolf Guard as an example. They can be bought and ran in units, like any other unit, OK? Or you can break up the unit and assign them to be the sergeants of other units, at which point they become characters.

Nobs are the same idea, except you can't break the unit up.

And Wolf Guard have the In(ch) thing too, that just means that, on their own, they're characters.

yes thats common sense but unfortunatly its not RAW, and RAW is how this game is played...

Wolf Guard have exactly the same unit type, yet they're treated as normal units when grouped together.

Trust me, they can't abuse challenges like you think they can.

until the new ork codex is released or errata changed this is just the way it is... because it doesn't specificaly say nobz squads only have one character per unit... and thats why cheeseness will always be a way to play

Except it's not the way it is at all. Again, I've provided precedent of another unit that behaves in exactly the same way, but you're wilfully ignoring it to exploit.

That's not "cheese", that's just cheating.

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of facts. GW, in their infinite wisdom, decided to save some ink by not splitting Wolf Guard and Nob profiles into squad-attached and unit-forming and gave them a blanket type of In(Ch). Going by the rules, Wolf Guard, Nob, and Paladin units are wholly comprised of Character models.

And assuming we go with what you say, then how do you explain Paladins being In(Ch)? They can never join other units and yet they're a Character unit. Why? Because they're one of the few (if not only) non-MC units that can consist of a single model, as daft as this idea might sound.

no you cant just transfer a rule from one codex to another just because they are similar units. it has to say in another codex the same thing.
here's an example - necron lord had a power that allows him to teleport arround the board AND he can leave close combat using the power
-librarian has apsolutely the same power just it didnt specificly say for him that he can use it to teleport out of combat, thus he couldnt (this coused a lot of arguments in the forums) but since it didnt say in his codex he can do it - he couldnt.

The same applies to nobz

Again, wilfully ignoring precedents, just to exploit.

Nobs in a nobs unit are no more characters than Wolf Guard are in a wolf guard unit or paladins are in a paladin unit.

I don't see why Nobs or wolf guard as a unit can't be characters, paladins never split up and they are all characters.

Now you're just ignoring facts.

Care to cite the exact rule you get this idea from? Because the unit summary in BRB states otherwise. And yes, Paladins are all Characters.

Cerebrium wrote:No, it's not. It's just a regular unit.

Let's take Wolf Guard as an example. They can be bought and ran in units, like any other unit, OK? Or you can break up the unit and assign them to be the sergeants of other units, at which point they become characters.

Nobs are the same idea, except you can't break the unit up.

And Wolf Guard have the In(ch) thing too, that just means that, on their own, they're characters.

Do you have a page reference to back that up? You can certainly have units of nothing but characters. Necron courts, paladin squads, chaos terminators, I don't see why nobs would be any different.

Pg411 of the rulebook.

Hmm, yes good page, it clearly says "Wolf Guard *stat stuff* In(ch)".

Which clearly states Wolf Guard are In(Ch)... -_-

Arn't paladins treated as Charactes? Wouldn't that make them the Ultimate tarpit, especially now that PWs are AP 3?

-DE- wrote:It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of facts. GW, in their infinite wisdom, decided to save some ink by not splitting Wolf Guard and Nob profiles into squad-attached and unit-forming and gave them a blanket type of In(Ch). Going by the rules, Wolf Guard, Nob, and Paladin units are wholly comprised of Character models.

And assuming we go with what you say, then how do you explain Paladins being In(Ch)? They can never join other units and yet they're a Character unit. Why? Because they're one of the few (if not only) non-MC units that can consist of a single model, as daft as this idea might sound.

If you look in the ork codex the Nobz unit elite entry does not have a "character" special rule on it. They are just a unit. Perhaps if you could only buy 1 nob in a unit I might give you a comparison to Paladins, but you have to buy nobz in a minimum unit of 3 models, one of which can be upgraded to a painboy. The painboy is then a character model in the nobz mob and IMNSHO should be the one and only member of the nobz mob that can issue and/or accept challanges. You might find one opponent who let's you use your attempted "unit of characters" exploit, but most people won't. If you read the Space Wolf FAQ it says that the *leader* of a Wolf Guard unit also gets the special rule 'character'. So your evidence of the In (ch) on the entry in the unit table is not good evidence since it is clear by the Space Wolves FAQ that not all Wolf Guard in a Wolf Guard unit count as characters at all despite also having the In (ch) markings on the unit listings in the BRB. The big difference is that there is a specific leader for Wolf Guard unit, but not in a nobz unit, which makes sense. The only one the nobz kowtow to is the big boss or the big mek, they aren't going to kowtow to one of their own. They all have something to prove to some day be the next boss so also aren't going to let one of their number get all the glory by taking on an enemy character all by themselves either.

Don't count on anyone falling for this and letting you pull this maneuver...

Skriker

Deadshot wrote:Arn't paladins treated as Charactes? Wouldn't that make them the Ultimate tarpit, especially now that PWs are AP 3?

I assume this would make them the grandmother of tarpits? God of Tarpits? Either way, it would take Ghazzy or Abaddon a long time to chew through them!

Because codex : orks was written 2 editions ago, before the 'character' special rule existed for anyone but IC's

The Nob leaders in ork squads don't have 'character' in their entry either, but guess what, they now are, thanks to the main rulebook

Nice strawman there...

The BRB however updates them to have the character rule.

Wait does this mean that my unit of Characters for apocalypse is going to be a pain in the ass?

Ascalam wrote:Because codex : orks was written 2 editions ago, before the 'character' special rule existed for anyone but IC's

The Nob leaders in ork squads don't have 'character' in their entry either, but guess what, they now are, thanks to the main rulebook

Nice strawman there...

The BRB however updates them to have the character rule.

Yeah strawman backed up by very CLEAR evidence that a unit of models are not characters just because they have the In (ch) listing on the table can be seen in the Space Wolves Codex. If a unit of In (ch) models were all characters then there would not be a rule listed in the Space Wolves codex that specifically says that the leader of a Wolf Guard unit gets the character special rule, because he would *already* be a character. But of course facts against your position shouldn't get in the way of you trying to cheat. Just don't be surprised when people smack you for it.

Helps if you read a whole post instead of just a small part of it. I gave a rational by the codex and a clear example of how the interpretation from the table is wrong as spelled out in a codex FAQ. That is not a strawman. That is called a supported argument and position.

Skriker

Cerebrium wrote:Except it's not the way it is at all. Again, I've provided precedent of another unit that behaves in exactly the same way, but you're wilfully ignoring it to exploit.

That's not "cheese", that's just cheating.

But to counter, what about paladins?

I'm pretty sure a unit of nobs or a unit of paladins is a unit of characters... last I checked there was even mention in the rulebook about having units of characters, so I dont see what the hangup is if the rulebook gives you instruction specifically on how to handle such things (check under wound allocation). REGARDLESS, the book tells us that these things are characters, and therefore challengable/look out sir-able, etc. deal with it until faq'd otherwise.

Bets GK players are going to try it with Paladins?

Nobz are characters until FAQ'd otherwise, in the Ork FAQ or the main rulebook FAQ.

The SW codex affects only SW (codex specific rules) unless they FAQ it as working that way for all units with multiple 'characters' in it, which they haven't to date.

I rarely run nobz squads, so i doubt it will bother me at all if they DO faq this in favour of your position, but at present they are listed as characters in the only source that covers the rule in regards to them, and nothing in the ork dex, ork FAQ or main rulebook indicates that they ose this rule if you have more than one in the squad.