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flukezor wrote:Interpretation and common sense aside if we think about this fluff wise you can see where this rule for a unit of nobs to fight the character of another army one at a time could have been left on purpose though. Same for Paladins Honor and all that junk...

Nob1 - "dis oomie is mine"
Nob1 dies
Nob2 - "now dis oomie is mine"
Nob2 dies
Nob3 - "i bet i can kill dat oomie"
etc..
etc..

Orks would do this kinda stuff, just to be the baddest ork around.

Yeah they really would, I mean if they retreated because one oomie was beating them, why would the weaker boyz respect them if they are nothing but gutted cowards?

Sure, but just because the orks want to fight one by one, doesn't mean their challenger does.

I can't really see Kharn or the Swarmlord or whatever stopping just to kill some puny ork. They would cut the challenger down and continue butchering everyone around them.

So don't charge those units with a single character model, is positioning really that hard, is having support for your beatstick dude so alien to people, are tactics dead?

With some they never had life.

With this new challenge system it appears so. I'm looking forward to its shenanigans myself... "I challenge your unit. They don't have a leader so they automatically refuse and do nothing" BS like that and this.

OK guys I've already had this one pulled on me during a game, I didn't have access to the SW faq and so had to let it slide with out arguement. I was playing TFG, so I think that says ample amounts about the application of this rule. Simple answer to this problem is shoot the gak out of ork nobz and don't charge them with characters unless they cause ID in droves.

EDIT: Alternatively you can use YOUR character to challenge a specific Nob in the squad, allowing you to pick off the bigger threats when possible or force them to drop out of the fight for a turn.

Dont forget to Glorious Intervention

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
EDIT: Alternatively you can use YOUR character to challenge a specific Nob in the squad, allowing you to pick off the bigger threats when possible or force them to drop out of the fight for a turn.

Nope

Rules say that you can only declare an open challenge, and the person being challenged chooses which of his character to use

Oh wait yeah, I was thinking of Nobz in squads of Boyz again...

EDIT: I guess with a retinue for you character (what ever race you play) you can tie down the squad and maybe spread some damage out, but there really isn't any way to get around it without back up... or just don't make any challenges and let them challenge you with back up...

Hahaha some of the posts made my morning i got to say x)

So here's what happened to me (it's why i started the post)...

I was playing with my space marines against my friends orcs and the following occured:
My dread and tactical squad led by lysander got assaulted by orc boyz with mekboy and nobz with a warboss.. So i thought whatever my guys are history but am gonna take his warboss with me. So he moves base to base and his boss was within my reach BUT a nob painboy with some guts issued a challange and i was like wait what?
- "after am dun with you am gonna be da bigest!" SPLAT! -
He was killed but my tacticals were pretty much decimated. My turn i keep fighting, his turn he just challenges my lysander again with a nob and finishing my guys and dread. At this point of game i already lost so i challenged a boss cuz he really wanted to take all the glory for killing this tough umie. He responds with a nob since i cant choose...
- "boss i now you da biggest its why you da boss but i wanna get some scars just like you! Oi! You there! Ye you hiding behind that armor, wavin you bigg stick! Behind that yo just a umie! Hahah-" SPLAT!
So now we had some sort of a pit, the boyz/nobz surrounding lysander wich took them one by one and boyz cheering giving the benefits of a rule Get im Boss! wich occurs when a lone character is left fighting with another character and his squad... Yes we kept playing for the fun to see wich ork will be glorious and kill this tough 'umie... He killed everyone if his champions, boss, nobz, mek, and in the end he got hacked by boyz with only one wound left... It took us 9 rounds i think to finish this ...
The moral of the story is that you can challange in order to gain on time. On your turn if you gonna get killed by the enemy, just challange the champion! And the whole squad gonna stay locked in combat and thus you get - even more tarpits!

im gonna put my vote in for a 10 man TH/SS termy unit, maybe not the mother of tarpits but pretty good beatsticks

Pasanax wrote:Hahaha some of the posts made my morning i got to say x)

So here's what happened to me (it's why i started the post)...

I was playing with my space marines against my friends orcs and the following occured:
My dread and tactical squad led by lysander got assaulted by orc boyz with mekboy and nobz with a warboss.. So i thought whatever my guys are history but am gonna take his warboss with me. So he moves base to base and his boss was within my reach BUT a nob painboy with some guts issued a challange and i was like wait what?
- "after am dun with you am gonna be da bigest!" SPLAT! -
He was killed but my tacticals were pretty much decimated. My turn i keep fighting, his turn he just challenges my lysander again with a nob and finishing my guys and dread. At this point of game i already lost so i challenged a boss cuz he really wanted to take all the glory for killing this tough umie. He responds with a nob since i cant choose...
- "boss i now you da biggest its why you da boss but i wanna get some scars just like you! Oi! You there! Ye you hiding behind that armor, wavin you bigg stick! Behind that yo just a umie! Hahah-" SPLAT!
So now we had some sort of a pit, the boyz/nobz surrounding lysander wich took them one by one and boyz cheering giving the benefits of a rule Get im Boss! wich occurs when a lone character is left fighting with another character and his squad... Yes we kept playing for the fun to see wich ork will be glorious and kill this tough 'umie... He killed everyone if his champions, boss, nobz, mek, and in the end he got hacked by boyz with only one wound left... It took us 9 rounds i think to finish this ...
The moral of the story is that you can challange in order to gain on time. On your turn if you gonna get killed by the enemy, just challange the champion! And the whole squad gonna stay locked in combat and thus you get - even more tarpits!

See that is just silly. He could have refused the challenge with just one nob, and had the rest of his unit beat you to a bloody pulp.

Pasanax wrote:its just a thing GW didn't notice when they were making the rules, they didnt think of that scenario

I think they did, considering that there is a paragraph in the book detailing how to deal with units composed entirely of characters.

Pasanax wrote:Hahaha some of the posts made my morning i got to say x)

So here's what happened to me (it's why i started the post)...

I was playing with my space marines against my friends orcs and the following occured:
My dread and tactical squad led by lysander got assaulted by orc boyz with mekboy and nobz with a warboss.. So i thought whatever my guys are history but am gonna take his warboss with me. So he moves base to base and his boss was within my reach BUT a nob painboy with some guts issued a challange and i was like wait what?
- "after am dun with you am gonna be da bigest!" SPLAT! -
He was killed but my tacticals were pretty much decimated. My turn i keep fighting, his turn he just challenges my lysander again with a nob and finishing my guys and dread. At this point of game i already lost so i challenged a boss cuz he really wanted to take all the glory for killing this tough umie. He responds with a nob since i cant choose...
- "boss i now you da biggest its why you da boss but i wanna get some scars just like you! Oi! You there! Ye you hiding behind that armor, wavin you bigg stick! Behind that yo just a umie! Hahah-" SPLAT!
So now we had some sort of a pit, the boyz/nobz surrounding lysander wich took them one by one and boyz cheering giving the benefits of a rule Get im Boss! wich occurs when a lone character is left fighting with another character and his squad... Yes we kept playing for the fun to see wich ork will be glorious and kill this tough 'umie... He killed everyone if his champions, boss, nobz, mek, and in the end he got hacked by boyz with only one wound left... It took us 9 rounds i think to finish this ...
The moral of the story is that you can challange in order to gain on time. On your turn if you gonna get killed by the enemy, just challange the champion! And the whole squad gonna stay locked in combat and thus you get - even more tarpits!

I would like to point out one thing. you were ever so slightly cheated. His Nob issued a challenge to Lysander. this cannot be done. He issuses a challange but you select which character fights not him. You say he was with a tac squad. You could have accepted the challenge with your seargent and Lysander would have been free to fight.

yes, i see now that i made a mistake there... thanks for pointing that out

the point of the post still stands

Challenge itself is the problem, just too many ways for it to be used in very cheesy ways. Instead of it being use for "cinematic" hero battles it's just gonna be the cheesiest way ever of tarpitting CC powerhouses.

60mm wrote:Challenge itself is the problem, just too many ways for it to be used in very cheesy ways. Instead of it being use for "cinematic" hero battles it's just gonna be the cheesiest way ever of tarpitting CC powerhouses.

And whats wrong with that?

I can see Lysander saying "Hey, Sergeant Joe" "Deal with that punk over there for me will you, I gotta smash some face over here"

It wouldnt be bad if they wounds overflowed but as it stands its a cheap gimp. The fact that you can't decline a challenge without being penalized is ridiculous and completely flies in the face of some armies character and fluff. Why would a Hive Tyrant give a crap about Sergeant Joe? How could could Sergeant Joe even communicate a challenge to one? And if the Tyrant doesn't ignore everything to focus all his energy on Joe, whom he can walk through backwards, he has to stand his round out?

Its a game mechanic. Some, as in very few, of the situations don't make sense. But the rest do.

If a Chaos Lord refused a challenge he would be laughed off the battlefield by his followers. he would of course skulk away to the back.

For Spezz Mareens, Sgt. Joe would much more likely jump in front of the guy issuing the challenge and tell him that he is unworthy to fight the great Lysander. Same for Nobz/Warboss etc. Makes perfect sense to me.

Jidmah wrote:For Spezz Mareens, Sgt. Joe would much more likely jump in front of the guy issuing the challenge and tell him that he is unworthy to fight the great Lysander. Same for Nobz/Warboss etc. Makes perfect sense to me.

Nob 1: He's mine! *Krunch*
*Glorious Intervention succeeds*
Nob 2: Hurr hurr, mine now! BRING IT OOMIE!

Two things that are slightly wrong with this thread,
1, Only one Challenge can be issued in a Close Combat, which is when when come into base to base to smakc each other, not each Fight sub-phase. So one unit of nobs uttering mutliple challenges is wrong, and basicly flat-out cheating if they are from the same combat.
2. Wolf Guard never lose thier Infantry(Character) rule they just gain a redundant Bonus (character rule for when they are split off form the main unit until its FAQed, because they are defined as Inf(char) and the Pack Leader rules just as add (Char) to thier unit type which is Inf(char), so yes they are a full unit of characters.

*Edit for some errors

I'm with Grey elder on this one... I'm surprised it keeps coming up. It's in the first paragraph in the Challenges section, for crying out loud. Only one challenge per close combat. So you tarpit for one turn, then get your face wrecked.

Edit: Also, it does say that wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against the challenger/ee, but not the other way around. The two are in base contact, so they have to wound each other first, but it does seem to imply that extra wounds should carry over. I suppose we'll have to wait for an FAQ on that one, but it does make sense that a Hive Tyrant cannot be held off by a IG sergeant. He'd just splat him with one wound and rampage on. At least, that's how I would play it (even though I play IG and it would be a huge disadvantage).

The weird thing is when he squashes the sarge (and several of his buddies) then the guardsmen can't hit him back because he's officially still in a challenge.
And just like that the cheese turns around.

EDIT: This is extra fun when he starts smashing nobs into mush and never gets hit back because the nob he challenged is long dead.

Rule mistakes, rule mistakes everywhere!

That's why we have discussion threads, to smooth the new edition out.

HoverBoy +1

This is a very informative thread. Can't really contribute because I don't have the new rules, but it seems silly to have only one challenge per squad. Makes it impossible to single out a character so long as anouther character is always around to eat challenges. And while I like the idea of a body guard character to protect a support character, I feel like if I have two characters, I ought to benefit from it by being able to get passed said bodyguard.

You can with precision strikes, so if youre char No.1 is fighting his No.1, your No.2 can try getting his No.2 that way.