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Kilkrazy wrote:If you actively claim a legal right, e.g. by driving, or asserting the rights due to a citizen, it's reasonable you should be expected to prove that you hold the status you claim.

I do not find check in stations for Americans proving that they have papers to be reasonable.

LordofHats wrote:

Aerethan wrote:Ummm, weed in your front yard=probable cause. A yard sale is not probable cause, nor does it make your property public. At any time you can tell people to get off your lawn. Old toys and clothes do not change that.

No. What changed it is that you asked people to come look at your stuff. If Joe Schmo can see it, the police don't need a warrant to do the same.

So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

Kilkrazy wrote:If you actively claim a legal right, e.g. by driving, or asserting the rights due to a citizen, it's reasonable you should be expected to prove that you hold the status you claim.

How does a checkpoint fit in with probable cause?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

Aerethan wrote:Ummm, weed in your front yard=probable cause. A yard sale is not probable cause, nor does it make your property public. At any time you can tell people to get off your lawn. Old toys and clothes do not change that.

No. What changed it is that you asked people to come look at your stuff. If Joe Schmo can see it, the police don't need a warrant to do the same.

So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

The only way I can see that happening is if people were selling stolen TVs on Craigslist in your area.

d-usa wrote:So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

I'm not sure this is a good analogy.

The police did not need a search warrant for the specific example that was given of the airsoft guns. Someone called and said they were selling real guns. When the police arrived, they saw realistic-looking guns in plain view. This is reasonable suspicion to investigate further.

d-usa wrote:So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

If you open your door to them and let them in when they come over, sure. If you tell them to wait outside and show bring the TV outside, no. If you open your garage to people and tell them to come in and look at your stuff you are inviting them in to your garage and they can look around, though they couldn't enter the house. If you put the stuff in the yard and don't allow people to wander your garage or house they wouldn't be allowed to search without a warrant.

Ahtman wrote:

d-usa wrote:So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

If you open your door to them and let them in when they come over, sure. If you tell them to wait outside and show bring the TV outside, no. If you open your garage to people and tell them to come in and look at your stuff you are inviting them in to your garage and they can look around, though they couldn't enter the house. If you put the stuff in the yard and don't allow people to wander your garage or house they wouldn't be allowed to search without a warrant.

There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

Just because I let any number of strangers into my house does not mean that I have to let the police enter without a warrant.

d-usa wrote:There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

A profound misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights is a rather common problem in the US (most people thing they have more protections than they actually do). As a general rule, if you make something viewable by the public, it is viewable by the government, i.e. plain view. The government needs no warrant to search something that is in plain view, especially not when the owner put it there. They don't need one because everyone can see, including them.

EDIT: The police only need a warrant to invade your privacy/property. If you invite anyone to come onto your property and look at your stuff (which is what a garage sale is) then you have waived your privacy and have no expectation to it.

That's why I said anyone dumb enough to sell something illegally at a garage sale deserves to be arrested, and if your not selling anything illegal then why do you care? Maybe the cop will see something he likes and pay you $5.

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

A profound misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights is a rather common problem in the US (most people thing they have more protections than they actually do). As a general rule, if you make something viewable by the public, it is viewable by the government, i.e. plain view. The government needs no warrant to search something that is in plain view, especially not when the owner put it there. They don't need one because everyone can see, including them.

EDIT: The police only need a warrant to invade your privacy/property. If you invite anyone to come onto your property and look at your stuff (which is what a garage sale is) then you have waived your privacy and have no expectation to it.

That's why I said anyone dumb enough to sell something illegally at a garage sale deserves to be arrested, and if your not selling anything illegal then why do you care? Maybe the cop will see something he likes and pay you $5.

I was mostly addressing the point of "If you sell a TV and let Joe Public into your living room to look at it, then any cop can also come into your house without a warrant because your house is now public.

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

A profound misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights is a rather common problem in the US (most people thing they have more protections than they actually do). As a general rule, if you make something viewable by the public, it is viewable by the government, i.e. plain view. The government needs no warrant to search something that is in plain view, especially not when the owner put it there. They don't need one because everyone can see, including them.

EDIT: The police only need a warrant to invade your privacy/property. If you invite anyone to come onto your property and look at your stuff (which is what a garage sale is) then you have waived your privacy and have no expectation to it.

That's why I said anyone dumb enough to sell something illegally at a garage sale deserves to be arrested, and if your not selling anything illegal then why do you care? Maybe the cop will see something he likes and pay you $5.

Problem with your logic, when you go to a shopping center you put your call in public view. does the government have the right to brake into your car because you put it in public view and walk away from it?

No, that's like the people I kick out of the store I work at. "This is public property," to which I respond "no, it's private property with public access and I am removing your public access."

broodstar wrote:Problem with your logic, when you go to a shopping center you put your call in public view. does the government have the right to brake into your car because you put it in public view and walk away from it?

No, because as property the car cannot be forcibly opened without a warrant (not even unforcibly if you forgot to lock it). That said, the police can look in the windows and if they see anything from the outside they are allowed to then open the vehicle cause they have probable cause.

EDIT: Now, if you open the doors and put up a sign that says "come on in"

No, that's like the people I kick out of the store I work at. "This is public property," to which I respond "no, it's private property with public access and I am removing your public access."

And you're allowed to tell the same to the police (provided they don't have a warrant). But of course, that just makes you look guilty.

broodstar wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

A profound misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights is a rather common problem in the US (most people thing they have more protections than they actually do). As a general rule, if you make something viewable by the public, it is viewable by the government, i.e. plain view. The government needs no warrant to search something that is in plain view, especially not when the owner put it there. They don't need one because everyone can see, including them.

EDIT: The police only need a warrant to invade your privacy/property. If you invite anyone to come onto your property and look at your stuff (which is what a garage sale is) then you have waived your privacy and have no expectation to it.

That's why I said anyone dumb enough to sell something illegally at a garage sale deserves to be arrested, and if your not selling anything illegal then why do you care? Maybe the cop will see something he likes and pay you $5.

Problem with your logic, when you go to a shopping center you put your call in public view. does the government have the right to brake into your car because you put it in public view and walk away from it?

No, that's like the people I kick out of the store I work at. "This is public property," to which I respond "no, it's private property with public access and I am removing your public access."

By opening you property to the public the police have the right to enter and any evidence found of a crime is permissible, however like a store open to the public you can deny entry or services to anyone.
So in the garage sale exmple the police have the right to come on to your property and search through what you are selling, you are equally in your right to deny entry to the offices.

youbedead wrote:

broodstar wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

A profound misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights is a rather common problem in the US (most people thing they have more protections than they actually do). As a general rule, if you make something viewable by the public, it is viewable by the government, i.e. plain view. The government needs no warrant to search something that is in plain view, especially not when the owner put it there. They don't need one because everyone can see, including them.

EDIT: The police only need a warrant to invade your privacy/property. If you invite anyone to come onto your property and look at your stuff (which is what a garage sale is) then you have waived your privacy and have no expectation to it.

That's why I said anyone dumb enough to sell something illegally at a garage sale deserves to be arrested, and if your not selling anything illegal then why do you care? Maybe the cop will see something he likes and pay you $5.

Problem with your logic, when you go to a shopping center you put your call in public view. does the government have the right to brake into your car because you put it in public view and walk away from it?

No, that's like the people I kick out of the store I work at. "This is public property," to which I respond "no, it's private property with public access and I am removing your public access."

By opening you property to the public the police have the right to enter and any evidence found of a crime is permissible, however like a store open to the public you can deny entry or services to anyone.
So in the garage sale exmple the police have the right to come on to your property and search through what you are selling, you are equally in your right to deny entry to the offices.

If you can deny them entry, then they didn't really have a "right" to entry now did they.

d-usa wrote:If you can deny them entry, then they didn't really have a "right" to entry now did they.

Of course they did. Now you're just moving the goal post and arguing semantics. The police can go anywhere the general public can go. You have no protections against that. Just like the general public you can ask them to leave and unless they have a warrant they must just like the general public.

This is a very simple thing to understand how has it taken up two pages?

Go ahead and read this if it helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_view

Police, just like everyone else, can enter any space open to the public and view anything that is presented there.

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:If you can deny them entry, then they didn't really have a "right" to entry now did they.

Of course they did. Now you're just moving the goal post and arguing semantics. The police can go anywhere the general public can go. You have no protections against that. Just like the general public you can ask them to leave and unless they have a warrant they must.

This is a very simple thing to understand how has it taken up two pages?

Go ahead and read this if it helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_view

And just because I have something listed for sale in my living room does not make it plain view and it also does not mean that the general public can come into my living room at will and it also does not mean that the police has any right to come into my living room.

My home is private. If I sell stuff it is still private and only people I give specific consent to can enter.

d-usa wrote:And just because I have something listed for sale in my living room does not make it plain view and it also does not mean that the general public can come into my living room at will and it also does not mean that the police has any right to come into my living room.

No one is talking about your living room... Are you even following the discussion or are you just ranting?

My home is private. If I sell stuff it is still private and only people I give specific consent to can enter.

If you open your door and say come one come all, then you just waived your privacy. That's what a garage sale is unless we're using some bizarre definition of garage sale that means only people you invite can enter your garage which pretty much defeats the purpose of a garage sale.

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:And just because I have something listed for sale in my living room does not make it plain view and it also does not mean that the general public can come into my living room at will and it also does not mean that the police has any right to come into my living room.

No one is talking about your living room... Are you even following the discussion or are you just ranting?

Do you have somebody on ignore, or are you just selectively reading?

Ahtman wrote:

d-usa wrote:So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

If you open your door to them and let them in when they come over, sure. If you tell them to wait outside and show bring the TV outside, no. If you open your garage to people and tell them to come in and look at your stuff you are inviting them in to your garage and they can look around, though they couldn't enter the house. If you put the stuff in the yard and don't allow people to wander your garage or house they wouldn't be allowed to search without a warrant.

d-usa wrote:Do you have somebody on ignore, or are you just selectively reading?

Ahtman wrote:

d-usa wrote:So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

If you open your door to them and let them in when they come over, sure. If you tell them to wait outside and show bring the TV outside, no. If you open your garage to people and tell them to come in and look at your stuff you are inviting them in to your garage and they can look around, though they couldn't enter the house. If you put the stuff in the yard and don't allow people to wander your garage or house they wouldn't be allowed to search without a warrant.

He's saying the same thing I said. You asked:

So if I put my TV on craigslist, the police has the right to come into my living room?

He answered the question 100% correct. The answer is no. And he said as such in his post. That you chose to read that otherwise while completely ignoring the entire point of the discussion, that's on your reading comprehension not mine.

I don't know why you're on about this. No one is talking about the police searching a private residence with private access. We're talking about searching private property that has public access i.e. a garage sale...

Example: If the police get a tip that a pawn shop is selling stolen property they may go to the pawn shop and look around the store because it is public access. Anything found in public access is in plain view. They may NOT however enter the room that says "Employee's Only" because it is not public access and if the pawn shop owner asks them to leave they have to unless they have a warrant.

If I learned one thing from Buffy, it's never invite anyone in. Works good on cops too, not just vampires.

1. In the video I mentioned, the cop was asked repeatedly to exit their property and he refused. He said he'd leave AFTER he searched the contents completely. So there's that.

Also, your front yard is as much private property as your living room. A cop needs a valid reason to be on your property and he isn't considered "the public" when he's on duty.

Aerethan wrote:1. In the video I mentioned, the cop was asked repeatedly to exit their property and he refused. He said he'd leave AFTER he searched the contents completely. So there's that.

Then yes he should have left. No one is disputing that or ever has. I disputed your claim that he needed a warrant which he did not.

Also, your front yard is as much private property as your living room. A cop needs a valid reason to be on your property and he isn't considered "the public" when he's on duty.

The point of plain view isn't to make the police the 'public' its to point out that when something is viewable by the public there is no expectation of privacy and the police cannot violate an expectation you don't have. They can't enter your yard willy nilly, but if your having a yard sale, you just opened your yard to the public, waiving your right to privacy in that space (ignoring of course that a yard is always viewable by the public, its only a problem if the police needed to enter the yard to look into the house which they can't do generally).

d-usa wrote:

youbedead wrote:

broodstar wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

d-usa wrote:There is a profound misunderstanding of the 4th here, not sure if there even is a point to argue against this line of thinking.

A profound misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights is a rather common problem in the US (most people thing they have more protections than they actually do). As a general rule, if you make something viewable by the public, it is viewable by the government, i.e. plain view. The government needs no warrant to search something that is in plain view, especially not when the owner put it there. They don't need one because everyone can see, including them.

EDIT: The police only need a warrant to invade your privacy/property. If you invite anyone to come onto your property and look at your stuff (which is what a garage sale is) then you have waived your privacy and have no expectation to it.

That's why I said anyone dumb enough to sell something illegally at a garage sale deserves to be arrested, and if your not selling anything illegal then why do you care? Maybe the cop will see something he likes and pay you $5.

Problem with your logic, when you go to a shopping center you put your call in public view. does the government have the right to brake into your car because you put it in public view and walk away from it?

No, that's like the people I kick out of the store I work at. "This is public property," to which I respond "no, it's private property with public access and I am removing your public access."

By opening you property to the public the police have the right to enter and any evidence found of a crime is permissible, however like a store open to the public you can deny entry or services to anyone.
So in the garage sale exmple the police have the right to come on to your property and search through what you are selling, you are equally in your right to deny entry to the offices.

If you can deny them entry, then they didn't really have a "right" to entry now did they.

They have the right to enter up until the point that you deny entry. It is my right to shop at a store until I am told to leave

If it was your right to be there, then people wouldn't be able to make you leave.

d-usa wrote:My home is private. If I sell stuff it is still private and only people I give specific consent to can enter.

Yes, which is why if you put your tv on sale on craigslist, and then have people make appointments to come and see it, then cops can't just walk in and look around.

Whereas at a garage sale, where you have a general invite to the public for people to enter and walk around looking at stuff, then cops can by default enter, and walk around looking at stuff.

Everyone is saying the same thing here, why is this thread still going?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you actively claim a legal right, e.g. by driving, or asserting the rights due to a citizen, it's reasonable you should be expected to prove that you hold the status you claim.

I do not find check in stations for Americans proving that they have papers to be reasonable.

How does a checkpoint fit in with probable cause?

I agree, however there is a difference between a "check in station" or checkpoint and actively exercising a right.

To make an analogy, if you go on the railway, you are expected to hold a valid ticket and display it on request. That doesn't give the ticket inspector a right to search your luggage.

You must hold a driving licence to drive legally, and the police must be able to examine your licence or they could not find illegal drivers. That doesn't give them a right to search your car or see your passport.

Probable cause is one of those areas of law which defies a formal definition applicable to the huge variety of circumstances that might arise. The police judgement in each case is what will trigger the search, and the person searched will need retrospectively to take such remedies under the law as might seem appropriate if he feels he was illegally searched.

I don't think the unreasonable searches and seizures right applies only to citizens, actually. I think it applies to everyone in the US. (Constitutional lawyers will need to be consulted.)

Logically though, if you claim a specific right, owing to a special status which isn't available to everyone, you need to be able to prove your entitlement to that right.

Because THE GUMMIT IS AFTER US THE GUMMIT IS AFTA US!

Melissia wrote:Because THE GUMMIT IS AFTER US THE GUMMIT IS AFTA US!

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Somebody had to post this. It's one of the final steps before invoking Godwin's Law.

d-usa wrote:If it was your right to be there, then people wouldn't be able to make you leave.

You don't seem to understand that two people could both have opposing rights. For example I'm fully in my right to enter any public park, the police also have the right to remove me from that park, just because one has a right to something doesn't mean its guaranteed and cannot be infringed under certain circumstances.

Melissia wrote:The guy's blog makes me want to stab him in the face.

Embrace your anger Melissia, and soon your journey to the dark side will be complete...

I don't think the unreasonable searches and seizures right applies only to citizens, actually. I think it applies to everyone in the US. (Constitutional lawyers will need to be consulted.)

I believe your correct. The US Constitution presumably protects all people, regardless of citizenship, within US borders. Granted, no one generally cares when an illegals rights are violated (for example).

Everyone is saying the same thing here, why is this thread still going?

Hmmmm.

OT is OT?

All I can say is I'm glad I live in a free country.