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orkdestroyer1 wrote:Lets see a daemon primarch would turn into a daemon prince and sanguinius beat up and banished the greatest daemon prince ever...ka'banda

No, a vanilla human/SM becomes a Daemon Prince

A Primarch becomes a Daemon Primarch, and the greatest of those beat Sanguinus down with absolutely zero effort

The Traitor Primarchs were equal to loyalist Primarchs and then got buffed by Daemonhood, so a Daemon Primarch would probably win.

Becoming a Daemon Primarch gives great benefits, of course. But it also grants limitations.

For example, if a Daemon Primarch happened to run into a Loyalist Primarch carrying psykout grenades, a nemesis force weapon, wearing true-silver armour... well, the fight just got a lot more even.

BrotherGnaeus wrote:Sanguinius would win he's kinda the man, his brothers are cool to I guess so they might win

I dunno, Horus ROFLSTOMPED Sanguinius at the end of the heresy.

Great White wrote:Khan also has to come back.

How could so many of you forget this tank? Shame on you all.

phantommaster wrote:

Great White wrote:Khan also has to come back.

How could so many of you forget this tank? Shame on you all.

Ascalam wrote:He's been a labrat for the DE for 10000 years. I'm not sure i'd want him back

Well for me it would depend on the matchup. For instance:

Lorgar as a Daemon Primarch against Russ....I'm taking Russ on this one.
Perturabo as a Daemon Primarch against Russ...I'm taking Russ on this one as well.
Angron as a Daemon Primarch against Russ...I'm taking Angron. Out of the loyalist Primarchs Russ is the only one who could stand against him and actually stand a chance. The rest would have got wrecked.

A more interesting question is this: Who wins in a fight between 2 Daemon Primarchs? We all know the Chaos Gods don't like each other, what makes anyone think that over the last 10,000 years the Daemon Primarchs have kept getting along just like they did before?

Perturabo vs Lorgar?
Mortarion vs Fulgrim?
Angron vs Magnus?

These are the fights that would be interesting. By the way that last one is a lot more equal than you would believe. Angron is going to have the blessing of khorne which means Magnus' psychic powers aren't going to be doing him a lot of good.

Didn't Roboute Guilliman kill Alpharius?
Granted Alpharius was not a daemon prince.

Yes. And an assassin killed Curze.

Brother Thomas wrote:Well, seeing as in how there are no loyalist primarchs. Default win goes to chaos


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Alive that is

Lion El'Jonson.

An assassin didn't just kill curze, curze sat there and let M'shen cut off his head and walk away, dont act like you know what your talking about.

Curze is one of the better fighters, easily.

Horrus still loyal, in false gods barely manages to beat a greater nurgle daemon.

100 grey knight terminators are able to banish Angron back into the warp, this alone tells me that a a loyalist primarch would get mutilated....

also why do you have so much love for Russ, id like to point out that sang is twice the fighter then russ is and gets beat at first by kabunda granted hes very strong, sang is able to kill him in the end. How would russ beat a daemon primarch at all, when he cant even beat up the Lion...? Russ isn't bad fighter but hes not as good as your leading on.

LoneLictor wrote:

Sharkvictim wrote:Magnus could take all of the loyalist primarchs on his worst day, if you take all of the allegiances out of it. He was reluctant to fight Russ, after all. He would have beat him senseless and then fileted his spirit and fed it to warp beasts.

Russ beat him fairly. Magnus went all out on him with psychic attacks, but Russ endured it and managed to kick Magnus' ass.

It's also implied that Russ is quite psychic and just refuses to acknowledge that part of himself.


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Frecklesonfire wrote:An assassin didn't just kill curze, curze sat there and let M'shen cut off his head and walk away, dont act like you know what your talking about.

Curze is one of the better fighters, easily.

Horrus still loyal, in false gods barely manages to beat a greater nurgle daemon.

100 grey knight terminators are able to banish Angron back into the warp, this alone tells me that a a loyalist primarch would get mutilated....

also why do you have so much love for Russ, id like to point out that sang is twice the fighter then russ is and gets beat at first by kabunda granted hes very strong, sang is able to kill him in the end. How would russ beat a daemon primarch at all, when he cant even beat up the Lion...? Russ isn't bad fighter but hes not as good as your leading on.

Actually it was over 1000 termies and they chanted a spell to banish him. Only like 5 survived. Nothing here about combat prowess, just rushing to get the job done before they ran out of guys for Angron to kill.

Surtur wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
Actually it was over 1000 termies and they chanted a spell to banish him. Only like 5 survived. Nothing here about combat prowess, just rushing to get the job done before they ran out of guys for Angron to kill.

Was 100. Grey knights are at 800 in number so could never be 1,000 and if it was 1,000 grey knights all of them got killed expect a few so the whole chapter would of been killed right there and then to.

iGuy91 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Well supposedly Lion is also napping. So he is a viable choice as a loyalist primarch.

He is cypher.

Actually, he is Alpharius.

Everyone is Alpharius. That chair? Alpharius. Obama? That's Alpharius. That Ultramarine? You guessed it, Alpharius.

Durza wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Sharkvictim wrote:Magnus could take all of the loyalist primarchs on his worst day, if you take all of the allegiances out of it. He was reluctant to fight Russ, after all. He would have beat him senseless and then fileted his spirit and fed it to warp beasts.

Russ beat him fairly. Magnus went all out on him with psychic attacks, but Russ endured it and managed to kick Magnus' ass.

1. I hardly think that accidentally punching someone in the eye while flailing wildly because they're in the process of pulling your heart out of your ribcage counts as either a fair victory or kicking their ass.

2. Magnus was also psychically stopping the fight on the rest of the planet and getting attacked by a bunch of Space Wolves while he fought Russ IIRC, so that hardly counts as being able to go all out against him.

Anyhow, the power of Chaos was enough to make Luther, who wasn't a even a true Space Marine, strong enough to match, or almost match, a primarch, and the only recorded battle between a primarch and daemon primarch has the daemon primarch as the victor.

While he may not be a "true" space marine, he still underwent all the trials and training for a marine, as well as the augmentation IIRC

orkdestroyer1 wrote:Lets see a daemon primarch would turn into a daemon prince and sanguinius beat up and banished the greatest daemon prince ever...ka'banda

BrotherGnaeus wrote:Sanguinius would win he's kinda the man, his brothers are cool to I guess so they might win

Sanguinius was killed by Horus, another PRIMARCH. Lawyered.

4oursword wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Well supposedly Lion is also napping. So he is a viable choice as a loyalist primarch.

He is cypher.

Actually, he is Alpharius.

Everyone is Alpharius. That chair? Alpharius. Obama? That's Alpharius. That Ultramarine? You guessed it, Alpharius.

Sig'd.

And a good chunk of primarchs are speculated to be alive, is it just IoM hoping, or is it true, we may never know.

GambleDwarf wrote:Didn't Roboute Guilliman kill Alpharius?
Granted Alpharius was not a daemon prince.

Uncertain, for all we know it could have been Alpha Legionnaire #427 posing as Alpharius posing as Omegon posing as Guilliman posing as Alpha Legionnaires #427, #428, and #i posing as Alpharius.

He's like that

Assuming it wasn't the Changeling impersonating Alpha Legionnaire #427 posing as Alpharius posing as Omegon posing as Guilliman posing as Alpha Legionnaires #427, #428, and #i posing as Alpharius...

Angron would win. Doesn't matter who it is, Angron wins.

it is quite obvious the answer is

Kaldor Draigo wins every time

As Angron's defeat on Armageddon proved, it's not about how strong you are so much as your tactics and the resources you can bring to bear on the situation.
I know Angron is bad at tactics. Mortarion just walks his troops into the meat grinder and tries to endure the attacks. Fulgrim's legion had some very tactically sound member (looking at you Tarvitz), but I'm not sure about his own ability. Haven't gotten far enough in the series to have read much about Magnus, so don't know his tactical capability.
Meanwhile, the loyalists may have: Guilliman(an ahole, but smart), Khan(lightning attacks), and Corax(innovative and creative). The ruinous powers are legion, but low quality and poorly commanded troops, unless you give the likes of Abbadon and Blackheart tactical control. Also, Alpharius(or is it Omegon?) could make a big difference.


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Also, how many primarchs exist in the warp? Draigo as written by Ward could probably take a primarch with a couple squads of paladins, as ridiculous as that is

Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:As Angron's defeat on Armageddon proved, it's not about how strong you are so much as your tactics and the resources you can bring to bear on the situation.
I know Angron is bad at tactics. Mortarion just walks his troops into the meat grinder and tries to endure the attacks. Fulgrim's legion had some very tactically sound member (looking at you Tarvitz), but I'm not sure about his own ability. Haven't gotten far enough in the series to have read much about Magnus, so don't know his tactical capability.
Meanwhile, the loyalists may have: Guilliman(an ahole, but smart), Khan(lightning attacks), and Corax(innovative and creative). The ruinous powers are legion, but low quality and poorly commanded troops, unless you give the likes of Abbadon and Blackheart tactical control. Also, Alpharius(or is it Omegon?) could make a big difference.


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Also, how many primarchs exist in the warp? Draigo as written by Ward could probably take a primarch with a couple squads of paladins, as ridiculous as that is

I consider the "twins" on their own side, using any and everything for their means to their final picture

Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:As Angron's defeat on Armageddon proved, it's not about how strong you are so much as your tactics and the resources you can bring to bear on the situation.
I know Angron is bad at tactics. Mortarion just walks his troops into the meat grinder and tries to endure the attacks. Fulgrim's legion had some very tactically sound member (looking at you Tarvitz), but I'm not sure about his own ability. Haven't gotten far enough in the series to have read much about Magnus, so don't know his tactical capability.
Meanwhile, the loyalists may have: Guilliman(an ahole, but smart), Khan(lightning attacks), and Corax(innovative and creative). The ruinous powers are legion, but low quality and poorly commanded troops, unless you give the likes of Abbadon and Blackheart tactical control. Also, Alpharius(or is it Omegon?) could make a big difference.


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Also, how many primarchs exist in the warp? Draigo as written by Ward could probably take a primarch with a couple squads of paladins, as ridiculous as that is

Dude it took 100 Grey Knight terminators. Someone like Guilliman would be brutally facestomped by something like that.

Draigo "as-written" would still need like 80 terminators to face Angron, let alone beat him.

Chaos is hardly "low-quality" and poorly commanded (Uhhh hello, Perturabo? This is Dorn, you win). In almost every encounter with loyalists they achieve a 1:1 K-D ratio, and in most cases, it's much better. Horus wiped Sanguinius and still went toe-to-toe with the Emperor., not to mention that Chaos was outnumbered during the Heresy and nearly won.

Maybe Logar wouldn't be much, but Perturabo, Angron, Cruze (even though assassinated), and Mortarian would have murder-fiestas with the Loyalists.

Sorry, I was talking post Heresy. In much of the fluff I've read, Heretics partake in massive charges with little planning besides "kill everything in the way". If we look back at legion conflicts, than I agree with your statement. If not, I would suggest that in fluff, much of the Chaos horde is made up of minor daemons, renegade guard, and cultist. In such cases, the kill ratio is rarely 1:1, even against non PDF Guardsmen. Even with a talented, experienced commander like Abbadon at their head, they are stalled time and again, losing cohesiveness shortly after (what's the crusade count at now; 13, was it? Persistant bugger, if nothing else )

Perturabo was an able commander. Also, Dorn, while being my second favourite primarch, wasn't at his best when he came up with the plan to enter the Iron Cage in the hopes of a fair fight against desperate renegades and traitors of the IoM.


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Oh, and note that Angron was hardly alone at the time; His elite bodyguard of 12 Greater Daemons and a massive horde of traitor marines, heretics and daemons were accompanying him, so it wasn't exactly just him against 100 Termies. As far as I know, the GK had no Paladins, though they were led by a grand master.

I wouldn't say that every black crusade has been a failure. Remember, Abaddon did get his hands on a couple of Blackstone Fortresses (which had been in the Imperium's possession) on one of his crusades of which one nom'd Eldrad soul as it was possessed by Slaanesh or whatnot.

Reivax26 wrote:Well for me it would depend on the matchup. For instance:

Lorgar as a Daemon Primarch against Russ....I'm taking Russ on this one.
Perturabo as a Daemon Primarch against Russ...I'm taking Russ on this one as well.
Angron as a Daemon Primarch against Russ...I'm taking Angron. Out of the loyalist Primarchs Russ is the only one who could stand against him and actually stand a chance. The rest would have got wrecked.

A more interesting question is this: Who wins in a fight between 2 Daemon Primarchs? We all know the Chaos Gods don't like each other, what makes anyone think that over the last 10,000 years the Daemon Primarchs have kept getting along just like they did before?

Perturabo vs Lorgar?
Mortarion vs Fulgrim?
Angron vs Magnus?

These are the fights that would be interesting. By the way that last one is a lot more equal than you would believe. Angron is going to have the blessing of khorne which means Magnus' psychic powers aren't going to be doing him a lot of good.

Lorgar
Fulgrim
Magnus

The Chaos primarchs sacrifice part of themselves for power, so in a duel the Chaos primarchs have almost always won. The Loyalists are no less skilled, but they are more well rounded. Angron becoming a Demon Prince of Khorne would make him an extremely deadly fighter up close, but he sacrifices his shooting ability, control of rage, and tactical sense for this power. Also, the Chaos primarchs are servants of the Chaos gods, so they have become pawns of these higher beings in exchange for power. It may seem like the Chaos primarchs are winning because they are mostly still around (except Konrad Curze, Horus, and one of the Alpha Legion twins), but Lion El'Jonson is still alive, Guilliman may be healing in stasis, and Jaghatai Khan, Leman Russ, Vulkan, and Corvus Corax are still alive and will return. I wonder if Games Workshop will ever have them return...

While I am no where near biased on Sanguinus ...isn't it mentioned somewhere that prior to assaulting Horus' ship that he was flying around and cutting down tons of Blood Thirsters on his own? And that he was already really beat up before facing Horus?

So getting stomped is only because he was already in trouble..

I recall him defeating one, but the number may have been inflated by later fluff. I'll have to check my more recent codexes

Nonetheless, he still couldn't have beaten Horus, even unwounded. Horus was a badass, though more recent rewriting has made him a little less so than he was originally envisioned IMO.