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The one thing I could see being a valid point is, as Bromsy brought up, hygiene and maybe periods. But there's pills for that...

They let people smoke. That's not really any better.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

60 pounds distributed on the front and back of the torso isn't a lot of weight. It's also not what led to the issues described in that article which were acute non tramatic stress issues that I haven't seen reported anywhere else. It sounds like she just didn't know how to get her injuries treated when she could have.

A couple of years of deployment didn't teach her a thing, I guess. Did you read her actual article that I posted the link to? It wasn't like she had easy acess to a hospital where she was at.

Relapse wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

60 pounds distributed on the front and back of the torso isn't a lot of weight. It's also not what led to the issues described in that article which were acute non tramatic stress issues that I haven't seen reported anywhere else. It sounds like she just didn't know how to get her injuries treated when she could have.

A couple of years of deployment didn't teach her a thing, I guess. Did you read her actual article that I posted the link to? It wasn't like she had easy acess to a hospital where she was at.

No, and that's telling by the injuries that she had that likely took months to develop. That's not gender, that's deployment scheduling. That could of (and has thousands of times) happened to the men as well.

ShumaGorath wrote:

The one thing I could see being a valid point is, as Bromsy brought up, hygiene and maybe periods. But there's pills for that...

They let people smoke. That's not really any better.

That's baaaaaad, but I guess you can't really control life habits when the Marine (lol I almost typed Space ) is at home, and it could cause huge stress related problems if they were suddenly cut off...

@Shuma,

You mentioned that they shouldn't let in skinny dudes if the y don't allow women. They don't induct or keep people that don't meet the physical standards.

Height and weight standard. You can be overweight or underweight Depends on your age bracket. I've seen soldiers reclassed if underweight but majority of overweight is processed out the army


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Shuma. Its not Deployment schedule its called CAP Cycle now

One other thing to consider is the economics of the situation.
How costly will it be to put a woman through boot camp, then infantry school and have to drop her out because she can't meet the physical requirements?
Back in the long ago when I was in boot camp, we had an attrition rate, for various reasons, of about 30% in my platoon.
The attrition was a lot less in infantry school because by then the ones that couldn't take the stress physically and mentally had pretty much been weeded out.
According to the article written in Marine publication, boot camp physical standards are lower for women.
A woman goes through boot camp, meeting a lower physical standard, hits infantry school, displacing a male, then falls out at some point in her training there, costing the time and money that could have been used on someone that could meet the standards of infantry school.
With the budget cutbacks, how much can be wasted in this manner?

Jihadin wrote:Example..only an example. I'm a insurgent sniper thats been around the block for awhile (few and far inbetween thank Gawd). Plying my trade in Afghanistan...after Ramadan...they're not turning down Ramadan at all but NATO forces diffently know when Ramadan is over. So feeling warm and fuzzy from 30 day vacation. I start observing ISAF forces conducting their foot sweeps. Notice females in the patrol and making a mental note. Pick the best location that affords me the best "unass" the AO. CLear field of fire. Deep enough into cover where my muzzle flash won't give me away. Wait....wait.....wait some more.....drink some water....wait wait wait...aahhhh here we go....take aim...and shoot the kneecap of a female thats in the open with very little cover.....shoot the medic coming in to save her dead..move to a secondary position in a span of 4 secs...shoot the female in the other kneecap...place my scope one foot above her...unit pop smoke to mask the attempt to get her...1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippe and put multiple rounds above her with a 1' to 1'6" spread. Bail out the area. Secure my weapon in a predisignated hiding spot. Go back to being a local farmer and observe my handiwork.

Now even though you read this it never occured to you. Since your maybe saying "BS" it'll never happen. Or I'm talking gak...maybe you think one of my BS paragrapth. Whats the male nature towards a female. Thats what I'm exploiting.

Are you saying that people might get shot?

God forbid that soldiers might be put in a position of danger.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

60 pounds distributed on the front and back of the torso isn't a lot of weight. It's also not what led to the issues described in that article which were acute non tramatic stress issues that I haven't seen reported anywhere else. It sounds like she just didn't know how to get her injuries treated when she could have.

I invite you to try humping with that load, running at times, about 25 miles a day over rough terrain in extreme weather conditions for an extended period to find out if you stick to you statement that "it isn't a lot of weight".

God forbid that soldiers might be put in a position of danger

Its nothing but a trip to the casino. Either you win big or lose it all but never is it dangerous unless you do something stupid.

As for the body armor...plates front and back...side plates...groin protecter...kidney pad...Deltoid protecters...ammo (you carry more then just a basic load)...camelback...weapon (M4/M249/M240B), IFAK, ACH, kneee pads, elbow pads, SINGAR possibly...extra ammo for the crew serve...frags...smoke grenades...oh possible rounds for the M204 underslung on the M4 assorted rounds for that. NVG's, batteries, someone lugging the foldable stretcher, combat life saver bag to a few (one per squad) extra water, a spare barrel for the 249 to name a few...in 120-130 heat index...add twenty more due to body armor. Its not 60lbs. Its around 140 lbs average. That not including whatever else the soldier perfer to bring with him on a outing.

Kilkrazy wrote:Are you saying that people might get shot?

God forbid that soldiers might be put in a position of danger.

He appears to be saying that male Marines are unreliable and will die like lemmings trying to rescue a squadmate, but only if they want to feth them.

Relapse wrote:One other thing to consider is the economics of the situation.
How costly will it be to put a woman through boot camp, then infantry school and have to drop her out because she can't meet the physical requirements?
Back in the long ago when I was in boot camp, we had an attrition rate, for various reasons, of about 30% in my platoon.
The attrition was a lot less in infantry school because by then the ones that couldn't take the stress physically and mentally had pretty much been weeded out.
According to the article written in Marine publication, boot camp physical standards are lower for women.
A woman goes through boot camp, meeting a lower physical standard, hits infantry school, displacing a male, then falls out at some point in her training there, costing the time and money that could have been used on someone that could meet the standards of infantry school.
With the budget cutbacks, how much can be wasted in this manner?

Countries already do this, we know for a fact that woman can fight in infantry divisions, because they already have

AlexHolker wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Are you saying that people might get shot?

God forbid that soldiers might be put in a position of danger.

He appears to be saying that male Marines are unreliable and will die like lemmings trying to rescue a squadmate, but only if they want to feth them.

Where's that level of realism in my tabletop games

Eldar player - Oh I rolled a 6 on my sniper's shot, I get to pick who I want! There, that female modeled soldier!
IG player - Darn okay, let me roll Ld on each of her squadmate to see if they acquire suicidal tendencies... *Bucket time!*

Ahtman wrote:

Jihadin wrote:Also it becomes more dangerous for an infantryman

Infantryperson. It becomes more dangerous for an infantryperson.

Let them drive the IFVs. If they are like my wife, the world will never bother us again. They will be too terrified of her driving over them.

"No a bank cannot leap out and attack your van."
-Frazzled, crying a little.

I agree with seb, if they meet the requirements sure i think they should be able to serve.

The point is, the requirements are ALWAYS easier because women are fething puny.

So I guess I agree with her too.

youbedead wrote:

Relapse wrote:One other thing to consider is the economics of the situation.
How costly will it be to put a woman through boot camp, then infantry school and have to drop her out because she can't meet the physical requirements?
Back in the long ago when I was in boot camp, we had an attrition rate, for various reasons, of about 30% in my platoon.
The attrition was a lot less in infantry school because by then the ones that couldn't take the stress physically and mentally had pretty much been weeded out.
According to the article written in Marine publication, boot camp physical standards are lower for women.
A woman goes through boot camp, meeting a lower physical standard, hits infantry school, displacing a male, then falls out at some point in her training there, costing the time and money that could have been used on someone that could meet the standards of infantry school.
With the budget cutbacks, how much can be wasted in this manner?

Countries already do this, we know for a fact that woman can fight in infantry divisions, because they already have

I'll just say it again, it was stated in the article she wrote that the Marines situation was different than other countries.

Instead of throwing up her hands and giving up pathetically, she should come up with solutions. A lot of good things in life come from hard work, and membership in the armed forces is one of them.

Melissia wrote:Instead of throwing up her hands and giving up pathetically, she should come up with solutions.

Like bionic implants so that she can compete physically with her male counterparts?

rubiksnoob wrote:Like bionic implants so that she can compete physically with her male counterparts?

I like where this is going:



And we all know what's inside

Candy? I love candy!

rubiksnoob wrote:

Melissia wrote:Instead of throwing up her hands and giving up pathetically, she should come up with solutions.

Like bionic implants so that she can compete physically with her male counterparts?

I was thinking of something more mundane. Like better designed equipment and training.


Badly fitting uniforms and armor have been identified as one of the primary causes for long-risk of injury for female soldiers, for example.

Melissia wrote:Badly fitting uniforms and armor have been identified as one of the primary causes for long-risk of injury for female soldiers, for example.

Nothing says 'better' like a form fitting armored suit with an arm cannon

There is a reason why the uniform is not form fitting

You're right, we're gonna need room for the triple A battery power pack and a snack compartment.

EDIT: And a cup holder.

Kilkrazy wrote:Israel, pound for pound one of the toughest countries in the world, conscripts women into the infantry.

Just because women in large numbers have actually done the job, isn't any evidence that they can actually do the job. In fact, citing where it's been widely successful having women in wider roles in the military as evidence of it being possible to have women in wider roles in the military is the single most insane, irritational nonsense I've ever head. Quite with your hyper-liberal-radical-feminist-dick-chopping-off jibber jabber.

If women really want to help save america and it's freedom, they should put more effort into looking pretty. Clearly this will inspire the real (male) soldiers into putting even more effort into protecting the country so they keep their terrorists hands off their women.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

60 pounds distributed on the front and back of the torso isn't a lot of weight. It's also not what led to the issues described in that article which were acute non tramatic stress issues that I haven't seen reported anywhere else. It sounds like she just didn't know how to get her injuries treated when she could have.

You try marching 10+ miles (at approx 12-13 minutes per mile pace average) over rough terrain with 60 extra pounds of gear distributed over your body, it ain't particularly easy. Hell, I would say 60 lbs is a light load by my standards... I've rucked 6 miles with about 100 pounds over flat terrain and by the end of it my feet were bleeding and I could barely walk, though that might not be a common load to bear... >.>

Anyway, I agree with her, I mean, I'm all for integration, but IF and ONLY IF, women are required to meet the same physical cut-offs, etc. as their male coutnerparts. No seperate scales, this is the military and we want the best of the best, and if you want equal opportunity, you need to meet equal standards. A military unit is a team, its like a chain, allowing women who are held to lower standards on a seperate scale introduces weak links into that chain, and when there are weak links then the chain begins to fail.I don't want no weak links in my military.

If ladies can pass the same test with the same results they should be in. It's possible for a nonbiased, fair test to produce sexist results without actually being sexist; and our leadership - emphasis on leader - need to accept that and educate their constituents. Because of basic genetics we won't ever be able to hit 50/50 but that doesn't mean we should arbitrarily draw the line at 0/100 either.

Bring on the infantrypeople (snicker). All the counterarguments are the same tired sexist bs we've been hearing for the last 100 years, and it's as foolish now as it was then; moreso in the face of elite units across the world that have absolutely no problem putting on their big-boy pants and making it happen. There are a lot of adherents of "American Exceptionalism" up ins that appear to think the fact women in the army get raped at a higher rate then in the general population, then oh well, guess we can't fix that problem! C'mon, guys. Don't make arguments like this with a straight face, it cheapens us all.

Women are already serving in the military, they are already dying in combat, lets start actually trying to be exceptional and respecting their sacrifices.

mattyrm wrote:I agree with seb, if they meet the requirements sure i think they should be able to serve.

Yeah, I agree with this as well.

That said, I think the standards should be maintained at their current level. Lowering the standards so that we can feel good about gender ratios in the infantry doesn't seem like a great idea.

LordofHats wrote:

Melissia wrote:Badly fitting uniforms and armor have been identified as one of the primary causes for long-risk of injury for female soldiers, for example.

Nothing says 'better' like a form fitting armored suit with an arm cannon

This is a good idea.

Ouze the point is, they DONT pass the same tests.. They never do!

Of course nobody would have a problem if they passed the same tests, the point is, they don't.

I have done some research.. Have you seen the state of the USMC physical tests!?

And still they run different requirements for women. It is pathetically easy, and still its easier for girls. Men have to do a paltry three pull ups? OK, girls just have to hang off the bar for a minute.

The only decent test is the SEALs one, and I'm 32 now and i could still pass it. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not sexist, I'm just a green beret and therefore an arrogant elitist prick!

Combat units should have tougher requirements for men as well! Make them tougher, and and then if women want to serve in combat units, they need to quit with all that seperate gak and muck in together.

My point really is this. I respect and admire anyone who serves, be they a remf or a pilot or a fighter. At least they pitch in! Why do girls need to be infantry? They can do almost everything and do their part. Isn't that enough?

I thought macho nonsense was just men, which is why every guy I ever meet in the rear echelons talks about how bas ass they are.. But clearly that idiocy isn't restricted to us guys eh!?

Girls.. You are wonderful, you are smart, but you are weaker. Just accept it, and do your part by being a pilot or joining the intelligence corps or something.

You really don't want a form fitting uniform when a flash fire happens. As for the body armor mine is stilled geared up for combat and it is not 60lbs. DCM/mod would let me I take pics and post it on here so everyone can be on the same sheet of music for a couple hours