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http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/12/12684555-women-in-the-infantry-forget-about-it-says-female-marine-officer?lite

I'll just throw this out there to see what you folks think. Personally, I agree with her.

She's probably right.

The military is not a safe place from a social perspective for women, by and large.

I am kind of curious how this will shake out.

Also it becomes more dangerous for an infantryman

Jihadin wrote:Also it becomes more dangerous for an infantryman

Infantryperson. It becomes more dangerous for an infantryperson.

Meh, if they can meet the requirements they should be let in, regardless of gender. That doesn't mean, of course, that as many women can meet the requirements as men, not by a long shot, but it does mean that we should recognise that if an elite woman

The article ends with a comparison of elite sport being dominated by men. And yeah, once you're talking about the best 1,000 odd people in a country of 300 million, you're so far down the skinny end of the bell curve so that even the most exceptional woman is unlikely to compete with the best men. But the marine corps is 200,000 strong, of which about 20,000 are infantry. And that isn't drawn from the whole population, but just from that section that is willing to join up. So you're not looking anywhere near the same part of the bell curve, and it becomes much more reasonable to think a woman might meet those standards.

If Isreal and Russia can have female combat units then I'm sure that we can handle it as well. Also I don't see the issue with essentially doubling the pool from which you can draw combatants

Women don't have the "xxx" to do "yyy" has been used to keep women out of all sorts of occupations for centuries.

Israel, pound for pound one of the toughest countries in the world, conscripts women into the infantry.

Ahh but women do have the "XX."

I see what you mean though, and yes Israel is very tough. They also have gays and transgendered persons in the services.

Kilkrazy wrote:Women don't have the "xxx" to do "yyy" has been used to keep women out of all sorts of occupations for centuries.

Israel, pound for pound one of the toughest countries in the world, conscripts women into the infantry.

They point out there's data from other countries, but say the Marines are different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the link to her article.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

Relapse wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Women don't have the "xxx" to do "yyy" has been used to keep women out of all sorts of occupations for centuries.

Israel, pound for pound one of the toughest countries in the world, conscripts women into the infantry.

They point out there's data from other countries, but say the Marines are different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the link to her article.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

Why would the Marines be special? I'm sure the Israelis didn't think 'oh well, it's okay, we're not trying to be as good as the Marines' when they decided to include women...

Personnally, I don't see the point. If someone has the will and the capacity... I bet there's a large number of women in todays army that could level me with a single punch, so...

If they don't let women in they need to stop letting in skinny dudes. This womans read on deterioritive health effects in her unit also sound pretty amateur.


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Kovnik Obama wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Women don't have the "xxx" to do "yyy" has been used to keep women out of all sorts of occupations for centuries.

Israel, pound for pound one of the toughest countries in the world, conscripts women into the infantry.

They point out there's data from other countries, but say the Marines are different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the link to her article.

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

Why would the Marines be special?

Because people keep telling them they are. That's about it. Most of the fatigue and muscle deterioration she noted was due to issues with lengthy deployments and physical activity scheduling which speaks to the type of warfare marines should and should not be engaged in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Ahh but women do have the "XX."

I see what you mean though, and yes Israel is very tough. They also have gays and transgendered persons in the services.

They're also trying to limit womens roles do to the increasing power of extremists factions within their own governance. To date mixed gender combat operations have never caused major problems.

Example..only an example. I'm a insurgent sniper thats been around the block for awhile (few and far inbetween thank Gawd). Plying my trade in Afghanistan...after Ramadan...they're not turning down Ramadan at all but NATO forces diffently know when Ramadan is over. So feeling warm and fuzzy from 30 day vacation. I start observing ISAF forces conducting their foot sweeps. Notice females in the patrol and making a mental note. Pick the best location that affords me the best "unass" the AO. CLear field of fire. Deep enough into cover where my muzzle flash won't give me away. Wait....wait.....wait some more.....drink some water....wait wait wait...aahhhh here we go....take aim...and shoot the kneecap of a female thats in the open with very little cover.....shoot the medic coming in to save her dead..move to a secondary position in a span of 4 secs...shoot the female in the other kneecap...place my scope one foot above her...unit pop smoke to mask the attempt to get her...1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippe and put multiple rounds above her with a 1' to 1'6" spread. Bail out the area. Secure my weapon in a predisignated hiding spot. Go back to being a local farmer and observe my handiwork.

Now even though you read this it never occured to you. Since your maybe saying "BS" it'll never happen. Or I'm talking gak...maybe you think one of my BS paragrapth. Whats the male nature towards a female. Thats what I'm exploiting.

@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.
Maybe the Isralies are defending a smaller area and aren't involved in extended marches carrying extreme loads in remote areas like the Marines are. I only say this in speculation, since I honestly don't know the circumstance of why a Marine that's had combat experience would say they're different.

Jihadin wrote:Example..only an example. I'm a insurgent sniper thats been around the block for awhile (few and far inbetween thank Gawd). Plying my trade in Afghanistan...after Ramadan...they're not turning down Ramadan at all but NATO forces diffently know when Ramadan is over. So feeling warm and fuzzy from 30 day vacation. I start observing ISAF forces conducting their foot sweeps. Notice females in the patrol and making a mental note. Pick the best location that affords me the best "unass" the AO. CLear field of fire. Deep enough into cover where my muzzle flash won't give me away. Wait....wait.....wait some more.....drink some water....wait wait wait...aahhhh here we go....take aim...and shoot the kneecap of a female thats in the open with very little cover.....shoot the medic coming in to save her dead..move to a secondary position in a span of 4 secs...shoot the female in the other kneecap...place my scope one foot above her...unit pop smoke to mask the attempt to get her...1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippe and put multiple rounds above her with a 1' to 1'6" spread. Bail out the area. Secure my weapon in a predisignated hiding spot. Go back to being a local farmer and observe my handiwork.

Now even though you read this it never occured to you. Since your maybe saying "BS" it'll never happen. Or I'm talking gak...maybe you think one of my BS paragrapth. Whats the male nature towards a female. Thats what I'm exploiting.

Male nature towards the female isn't what caused the medic to go to the woman. Nor is is what compels marines to recover hit or fallen soldiers. Also, farmers don't have those skills or that level of knowledge of marine behavior. I'm not gonna say "BS it'll never happen" because it could. It sounded like a vaguely plausible scenario. I'll call bs because if you replace a woman with a dude the exact same scenario plays out.

You also don't have a very good read on male behavior if you think that self sacrifice is an immediate or instinctive reaction to females in danger. We're a species that is majority female. Men can be exceptionally callous and uncaring towards women and there is ten thousand years of history to prove that dudes don't go around taking bullets for women at every opportunity. This is you projecting.

Jihadin wrote:Example..only an example. I'm a insurgent sniper thats been around the block for awhile (few and far inbetween thank Gawd). Plying my trade in Afghanistan...after Ramadan...they're not turning down Ramadan at all but NATO forces diffently know when Ramadan is over. So feeling warm and fuzzy from 30 day vacation. I start observing ISAF forces conducting their foot sweeps. Notice females in the patrol and making a mental note. Pick the best location that affords me the best "unass" the AO. CLear field of fire. Deep enough into cover where my muzzle flash won't give me away. Wait....wait.....wait some more.....drink some water....wait wait wait...aahhhh here we go....take aim...and shoot the kneecap of a female thats in the open with very little cover.....shoot the medic coming in to save her dead..move to a secondary position in a span of 4 secs...shoot the female in the other kneecap...place my scope one foot above her...unit pop smoke to mask the attempt to get her...1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippe and put multiple rounds above her with a 1' to 1'6" spread. Bail out the area. Secure my weapon in a predisignated hiding spot. Go back to being a local farmer and observe my handiwork.

Now even though you read this it never occured to you. Since your maybe saying "BS" it'll never happen. Or I'm talking gak...maybe you think one of my BS paragrapth. Whats the male nature towards a female. Thats what I'm exploiting.

Nah I'm sure this is exactly the type of things happening over plenty of modern battlefields... but how does being a female plays in that scenario? A rape scenario I get, but then if the women agreed to do battle, she surely agreed to put her life and safety on the line.

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

60 pounds distributed on the front and back of the torso isn't a lot of weight. It's also not what led to the issues described in that article which were acute non tramatic stress issues that I haven't seen reported anywhere else. It sounds like she just didn't know how to get her injuries treated when she could have.

I just trashed a female and caused multiple casualties I also got the medic. I also got maybe 2-3 more troops wounded. I won't know till after the engagement. I just trashed a platoon psych and cohesion just by her screaming alone. What would happen if I started to specifically target females first. A badly wounded female is no joke. It fukks up everyone mentality

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

That's cool and impressive, but Ive known women (albeit not bery feminine ones, I'll admit), that trained about 6 hours a day in martial art, boxing and other various combat sports. While it might be an exception, I have no doubt that woman would've easily matched marines in most regards.

Women that dedicated to combat are probably very rare, but if they are, then it would sucks being told to 'go back to the kitchen and make me a sandwich' (I keeed )

@Jihadin : Ah okay yeah, mentally, it might cause greater stress on the platoon. But that's somehow still sexism based on the beleif that women shouldn't go on the battlefield. If the argument revolves around self-fulfilling prophecies, I think it might simply be healthier to change that perception. Plus I'm all for more Femme Fatale, it's something our society miss a lot.

Jihadin wrote:I just trashed a female and caused multiple casualties I also got the medic. I also got maybe 2-3 more troops wounded. I won't know till after the engagement. I just trashed a platoon psych and cohesion just by her screaming alone. What would happen if I started to specifically target females first. A badly wounded female is no joke. It fukks up everyone mentality

A badly wounded person you are close to feths up your mentality, regardless of gender. You're projecting your own white knighting onto this scenario and you just made up the most skilled sniper on the planet for a silly rant. Stop this.

Jihadin wrote:Example..only an example. I'm a insurgent sniper thats been around the block for awhile (few and far inbetween thank Gawd). Plying my trade in Afghanistan...after Ramadan...they're not turning down Ramadan at all but NATO forces diffently know when Ramadan is over. So feeling warm and fuzzy from 30 day vacation. I start observing ISAF forces conducting their foot sweeps. Notice females in the patrol and making a mental note. Pick the best location that affords me the best "unass" the AO. CLear field of fire. Deep enough into cover where my muzzle flash won't give me away. Wait....wait.....wait some more.....drink some water....wait wait wait...aahhhh here we go....take aim...and shoot the kneecap of a female thats in the open with very little cover.....shoot the medic coming in to save her dead..move to a secondary position in a span of 4 secs...shoot the female in the other kneecap...place my scope one foot above her...unit pop smoke to mask the attempt to get her...1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippe and put multiple rounds above her with a 1' to 1'6" spread. Bail out the area. Secure my weapon in a predisignated hiding spot. Go back to being a local farmer and observe my handiwork.

Now even though you read this it never occured to you. Since your maybe saying "BS" it'll never happen. Or I'm talking gak...maybe you think one of my BS paragrapth. Whats the male nature towards a female. Thats what I'm exploiting.

Huh. I was not aware we routinely left wounded male soldiers to die without making any attempt to save them.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

That's cool and impressive, but Ive known women (albeit not bery feminine ones, I'll admit), that trained about 6 hours a day in martial art, boxing and other various combat sports. While it might be an exception, I have no doubt that woman would've easily matched marines in most regards.

Women that dedicated to combat are probably very rare, but if they are, then it would sucks being told to 'go back to the kitchen and make me a sandwich' (I keeed )

It's still not the same thing. I've also know similar women, and I know that there are signifigant rest periods in that 6 hours a day of training. On a hump, you don't get that kind of rest .

When I was in, you were obligated to get females to a shower facility every 4 days, for health reasons - at least in the army (any other branches have any significant departure from that?), so mostly I was curious about how events like the Iraq invasion would go down - where I had buddies in Mopp 3 for something on the order of 40 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Oriented_Protective_Posture

AduroT wrote:

Jihadin wrote:Example..only an example. I'm a insurgent sniper thats been around the block for awhile (few and far inbetween thank Gawd). Plying my trade in Afghanistan...after Ramadan...they're not turning down Ramadan at all but NATO forces diffently know when Ramadan is over. So feeling warm and fuzzy from 30 day vacation. I start observing ISAF forces conducting their foot sweeps. Notice females in the patrol and making a mental note. Pick the best location that affords me the best "unass" the AO. CLear field of fire. Deep enough into cover where my muzzle flash won't give me away. Wait....wait.....wait some more.....drink some water....wait wait wait...aahhhh here we go....take aim...and shoot the kneecap of a female thats in the open with very little cover.....shoot the medic coming in to save her dead..move to a secondary position in a span of 4 secs...shoot the female in the other kneecap...place my scope one foot above her...unit pop smoke to mask the attempt to get her...1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippe and put multiple rounds above her with a 1' to 1'6" spread. Bail out the area. Secure my weapon in a predisignated hiding spot. Go back to being a local farmer and observe my handiwork.

Now even though you read this it never occured to you. Since your maybe saying "BS" it'll never happen. Or I'm talking gak...maybe you think one of my BS paragrapth. Whats the male nature towards a female. Thats what I'm exploiting.

Huh. I was not aware we routinely left wounded male soldiers to die without making any attempt to save them.

I think routinely if the medic is hit they wouldn't attempt to move the wounded until after they've established that it's possible to do so without getting shot. When a sniper is clearly shooting people attempting to recover the wounded in an open environment you just let them bleed until they can be saved without more casualties. Hence the smoke and such. The bs part is the implication that everyone would rush up to save the woman (not the medic) at once. It's also fairly bs to think that the sniper can accurately shoot out both the soldiers knees and then go rambo and gun down the entire unit in the space of a few seconds. This dude has some pretty impressive skills for a farmer.

Nope...you see the part where I mention a trained sniper few and far inbetween. They are out there. The marines in Fullujah well attest to that one when they moved through the graveyard. I will also attest to one that shut down the northern side of Bagram for 5 hrs in '08. I will also attest to the one in 2010 that shot my troop in the head (ACH saved his butt) who was manning the turret in a convoy moving about 40 mph going towards FoB Wilson in Southern Afghanistan.

Relapse wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Relapse wrote:@Kovnic,

Check out her actual article when you get a chance. Marines are often packing 60 plus pounds of green gak along with a rifle and body armor over rough terrain for miles at a time, and it's not at an easy pace.

That's cool and impressive, but Ive known women (albeit not bery feminine ones, I'll admit), that trained about 6 hours a day in martial art, boxing and other various combat sports. While it might be an exception, I have no doubt that woman would've easily matched marines in most regards.

Women that dedicated to combat are probably very rare, but if they are, then it would sucks being told to 'go back to the kitchen and make me a sandwich' (I keeed )

It's still not the same thing. I've also know similar women, and I know that there are signifigant rest periods in that 6 hours a day of training. On a hump, you don't get that kind of rest .

Woman don't have required physical rest periods in excess of that of men for lengthy strenuous travel. That is an artifact of muscle mass, bone structure, diet, and technique. Males tend to be larger and can carry larger loads for longer, but they also tend to suffer stress and impact related injuries more due to their increased weight. The injuries in the article are also related to deployment schedule and not gender. Nothing that she described is gender specific. Please stop pretending like you know what these things are and mean.


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Jihadin wrote:Nope...you see the part where I mention a trained sniper few and far inbetween. They are out there. The marines in Fullujah well attest to that one when they moved through the graveyard. I will also attest to one that shut down the northern side of Bagram for 5 hrs in '08. I will also attest to the one in 2010 that shot my troop in the head (ACH saved his butt) who was manning the turret in a convoy moving about 40 mph going towards FoB Wilson in Southern Afghanistan.

Those guys all sound kinda gakky compared to the space marine you invented for your story.

Maybe it's Rambo from Rambo 2? You know, the one that holds an entire armoured division of russians by himself?

Kovnik Obama wrote:Maybe it's Rambo from Rambo 2? You know, the one that holds an entire armoured division of russians by himself?

Thats easier to do than a cold kill of an entire unit from one sniper in the span of a few seconds. All it takes to hold up a lot of people is to shoot a few as they try to move around an open area. They will then wait until you can be killed by a plane. I've heard plenty of stories of a sniper or two "holding up an army". I've yet to hear of one that "killed everyone super fast".

Minimum is 5 min for either a fast mover to appear or a Apache on patrol. Then you also have to know where the sniper is at to put steel on target. A lot can happen in five minutes.

A sniper is not to suppose to stay long enough to kill an entire unit...a platoon like 40 guys. As for the "farmer" all we know he is just a farmer. Actually he's an insurgent from Kygykastan or maybe Bosnia/Kosovo

ShumaGorath wrote:Woman don't have required physical rest periods in excess of that of men for lengthy strenuous travel. That is an artifact of muscle mass, bone structure, diet, and technique. Males tend to be larger and can carry larger loads for longer, but they also tend to suffer stress and impact related injuries more due to their increased weight. The injuries in the article are also related to deployment schedule and not gender. Nothing that she described is gender specific. Please stop pretending like you know what these things are and mean.

Is what I was thinking. Generally, women who tend to slack off more during sports are simply those that aren't as much into sport, hence lower physical threshold and, more importantly, lower mental threshold.

Without training, women won't develop much in the way of muscle mass, while men will, so that's a factor I could understand being brought up at first. I don't know of anything that would make them literally less enduring to physical stress, when the same muscle mass is involved.

The one thing I could see being a valid point is, as Bromsy brought up, hygiene and maybe periods. But there's pills for that...