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DarkStarSabre wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:
So actually, I think he has enough drawbacks to mitigate any claims of OP. Abaddon will still slam him without too much trouble, and other title characters can at least put a few wounds on him, if not kill him outright.

Odds are that Abaddon will fail to get through the 2+ armour save, whereas this guy has a hammer...

And an AP2 weapon.

In this edition that is incredibly powerful. Every other SC who comes along toting an AP2 melee weapon drops to I1. The only difference is Tyranids and to be frank, Tyranids have plenty of problems of their own that no amount of I5/I6/I7 AP2 melee is going to solve.

As others have said...

Far too many stat boosts. Far, far too many. His WS is obscene and combined with an AP2 melee weapon that strikes at relatively high initiative....add to that the Born Ferociousness, Spirit of Rage, Bleeding Madness and Dance of Blades rules (seriously, that's only HALF of them) and you have a beat stick designed to urinate all over his equivalent counterpart melee characters (Kharn, Abaddon, Swarmlord, Ragnar Blackmane).

You may claim that a 'slightly' reduced BS would counter this out - sure. BS 0.

You may also claim that a lack of EW will counter this out - at Toughness 6? Are you kidding me? The only things that are going to pose a ID threat to his 2+ save are I1, you've made his WS obscenely high so he's harder to hit, made it so he can reduce the number of attacks incoming, given him MORE wounds than Tyranid MC characters, given him an obscene amount of attacks....and I pray to god you don't class him as a character otherwise Precise Strike will just be used to neuter any threats with lucky 6s. Oh, and he has FNP on the off chance that something DOES get through to hurt him.

No. Just No.

As others have said, you need to take this character all the way back to the drawing board or out back like Old Yeller.

Start basic, work out wargear, add maybe one or two special rules , bump one or two stats.

No cumulative stat stacking shenanigans. When this guy charges with his Rage power Over 9000 ability active he's effectively got +5 attacks on top of what he has. You may argue that Chaos characters can get to that...

Sure.

If they roll a 1 they get NOTHING. There is no counter for this.

Umm did you JUST come onto this thread or what? In my opinion it seems all you've done is saw the first and original post on this thread and batted him. Look further down and you'll see a slightly more refined version of him. Several rules less, 1 special wargear, not to mention how he's still being worked on so before you say take him completely back to the drawing board just hold on and don't get ahead of yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also as a side note, I originally wrote up this character when 5th Ed was still in use and I haven't purchased my 6th Ed rulebook yet so while you're all saying oh this is mega in 6th I haven't the foggiest about what you mean.

You should really get the new book then. Rage grants +2A on the charge with no drawbacks, and power weapons now have AP values, so power swords which used to ignore armour, are now only AP3. Thunder hammers are AP2, but strike at I1, just as your character should.

We are still working on this. No need to start crying "Mary Sue!" yet. Jeez.

liquidjoshi wrote:We are still working on this. No need to start crying "Mary Sue!" yet. Jeez.

This exactly

I'm still perplexed by the name...
I do think that he should be striking at I1 though...

An interesting point, the character was created for 5th at the outset of 6th, so needs a bit of re-working. I was not aware that Abaddon was only hitting at AP3, so the Tip will most likely be re-worked to take that into account. It isn't a Thunderhammer, it just acts similarly to one, but there are differences. We are going to work on this Wednesday to iron out some things, and try and get it balanced for 6th.

Just to add to the melting pot half the rules already exist on Gabriel, Dante and Lemartes aswell as brotherhood champions and minitors charaters. It just seems you want the best parts of unique charaters. As a master dualist look at Perallas Mir'shun (IA 10) who is only Ws7.

Lichkitten wrote:Just to add to the melting pot half the rules already exist on Gabriel, Dante and Lemartes aswell as brotherhood champions and minitors charaters. It just seems you want the best parts of unique charaters. As a master dualist look at Perallas Mir'shun (IA 10) who is only Ws7.

Hell, most master duelists/melee monsters top out at WS7 (Lucius, Kharn, DE Archons, etc.) with few exceptions here and there and those exceptions have some pretty obvious weaknesses/drawbacks (Crowe buffs your opponent, Lelith has crummy/meh saves).

As for the Thunderhammer striking at initiative, I vote NO. If Silas Alberec, an ogryn/primarch sized Space Marine Captain who is S5, can't strike at Initiative with his TH equivalent, I see no reason why your character should.

Keep in mind that Rage is now +2 attacks on the charge, not forcing a move towards the closest enemy unit.

I like this guy. Very fluffy, and not OP. The only thing is the name... that's one long freakin' name.

McNinja wrote:Keep in mind that Rage is now +2 attacks on the charge, not forcing a move towards the closest enemy unit.

I like this guy. Very fluffy, and not OP. The only thing is the name... that's one long freakin' name.

FINALLY! SOMEBODY OTHER THAN liquid WHO LIKES HIM! You my friend are genius haha. The name, well, it's not that long is it?

It's pretty long...
Not entirely sure how you would even pronounce it either...

purplefood wrote:It's pretty long...
Not entirely sure how you would even pronounce it either...

didn't think it was that bad, the pronunciation in phonetic is Kay-jaj Zas-teref

crimsonfist832 wrote:
FINALLY! SOMEBODY OTHER THAN liquid WHO LIKES HIM!

Shouldn't that tell you something?

It's on hold guys. We're working on him. Seriously, we're going to make changes.

We are aware of changes to rage, etc. For the third time, it will work like the old rage. The character will also be taking some drawbacks.

Right, well. After much deliberation, refining, and editing since the original and first version of Kaijjajj, he is now (hopefully!!!) finished! Again, thanks will be gave where thanks are needed and I thank you liquidjoshi on your tremendous help involved with this small 'project'. Now, with a final ado, I present to you Lord High Executioner V.3.0.


KAIJJAJJ XJAS'T'EREFF................................ 290 POINTS
Lord High Executioner of the Blood Golems, Spirit of Rage, the Guillotine, Bringer of Despair

WS...BS....S....T....W....I....A....Ld....Sv
..7......1......5....4.....4....5...3....10....2+

Unit Composition:
1 (Unique)

Unit Type:
Jump Infantry

Wargear:
Artificer Armour
Jump Pack
Death Mask
Obelisk’s Tip
Storm Shield
Iron Halo

Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Independent Character
Foresaw Timing
Born Ferociousness
Bleeding Madness
Art of War

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Obelisk’s Tip: Reputedly gifted to the Blood Golems Chapter personally by their forefathers the Blood Angels for reasons that remain shrouded in secrecy to all but the Blood Golems themselves, the Obelisk’s Tip was carved from the very tip of the Blood Golems Fortress Monastery the Obelisk by the Blood Angels prior to the founding of their beloved home. A massive, barbed, spear-tipped blade that is a deadly bane to the witch, xenos, and daemon alike, and is crafted from the same ultra-dense Obsidian alloy as the Obelisk itself, only one as heavily built and stocky as Kaijjajj could hope to wield it. The Obelisk’s Tip is so large and bulky that although it resembles a blade in shape, when used in the heat of battle it is more resembling to the bludgeoning pain of a hammer or mace.
---
The Obelisk’s Tip is a unique master-crafted power weapon that confers +3 Strength, and also reduces Kaijjajj’s Initiative by -3.

Foresaw Timing: Kaijjajj and his unit, if he has joined one, and only if they have Jump Packs, do not scatter when they deploy by Deep Strike.

Born Ferociousness: Should an enemy drop its guard, Kaijjajj is swift to take advantage, lashing out with a swift punch, kick, or headbutt to knock the foolhardy foe to the floor.
---
For every roll of ‘1’ to hit Kaijjajj in close combat, Kaijjajj may make an additional close combat attack at Strength 5 to represent him taking advantage of this opening. He may only direct the hit towards model(s) in base contact.

Bleeding Madness: At the sight of his own blood (and even that of his foe), Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff’s self-control begins to slip and he begins to become overwhelmed by the curse within his veins.
---
Once he has lost one or more wounds, Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereffs’ Strength and Initiative are both increased by +1. However, he must move towards the nearest visible enemy unit as fast as possible, and must always attempt to charge (this means he cannot run). If there is no enemy unit visible then he acts as normal.

Art of War: The Lord High Executioner of the Blood Golems has spent many harsh, gruelling, and dedicated decades honing his skills in the crucible of melee and close quarters combat, eschewing his ballistic prowess for greater abilities in this bloody theatre. In truth, few can stand before him when he is in combat, for he has a martial style to combat every opponent.
---
At the beginning of the Assault phase, you may select one of the following 'Stances' for Kaijjajj to use in this round of combat:
Whirlwind: Kaijjajj swirls around in a furious assault, decimating his foes. Kaijjajj gains the following for this round of combat: +2 Attacks, -3 Strength, +1 Initiative. (and applied bonuses for charging and special rules)
Death or Glory: Kaijjajj singles out his foe and engages, until either he, or they, are dead. Kaijjajj gains the following for this round of combat: Instant Death. (and applied bonuses for charging and special rules.)

Chapter Master: Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff is a HQ choice for a Codex: Blood Angels army. If you use Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff, then you may take no other Chapter Master, named or otherwise. If Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff is part of your army, you may also include one Blood Angels Honour Guard squad. This unit does not count towards your HQ allowance, but to be fielded must be purchased with the Jump Packs upgrade.

Points is going to be between 250 (lol no) and 300(maybe excessive.) As he isn't a massively important character in the grand scheme of GW history I'd say he should have a premium on him. does 290 sound fair?

I'm still not too sold on him needing half of the special rules TBH. Rage isn't that much of a loss when you get to Deep Strike without scattering and striking at S8 with a Power Weapon seems a bit excessive. Furthermore, I don't see why he needs to "steal" special rules from Dante and Seth.

On "stealing" rules, neither do I, but Crimson wanted them. At least Seth's is kind of cool, though I see any given Space marine being able to do it really. Doesn't need it's own special rule for either of them IMHO.

I also think it looks more excessive because of fluff descriptions.

I see your point about scatter, perhaps the DOA non scatter could be removed to mitigate that.

I would just drop the hand flamer. Balancing out the high WS with a low BS means nothing when his only ranged weapon is template based.

A hand flamer won't do massive damage, but I also feel it's rather unnecessary, and detracts from the character rather than adding to him.

His weapon is still too much. You have given him an I3 powerfist. Either drop his S to 4 (like every marine, as there's truly no reason for him to be more) or make the weapon a normal +2S for being a relic blade, or give him a hammer/fist at I1.

You have reduced his BS to 1, yet given him a template weapon, effectively making his BS useless anyways while still having a solid shooting attack. I think the stances are too much and unnecessary, as it will confuse your opponent. I'd drop the rule.

As is, no less than 275pts. I still think he's over the top and OP. Don't try and make uber badass characters to take on a whole army by itself. Take an existing character and tweak it slightly to preserve balance.

Simple mathhammer shows that this guy can, even without some of his special rules, fight Mephiston to a standstill. That is not easily achieved, chapter master or not.

This guy has rules from Dante, Seth, and Lemartes, wargear from Dante, and is for some reason stronger than regular marines. Both of his styles grant +1 initiative, so he might as well just be I6. Worst of all one of the styles makes his attacks inflict Instant Death for absolutely no reason. Put simply, it is too much.

I'm thinking no less than 275pts as Blacksails said, and if I'm honest I think he should be closer to 300.

Pick 2 special rules (including weapons and stat line upgrades) that you absolutely have to have. Drop everything else.

I know I said I wanted C&C and everybody has provided me with it, some more useful than others, but I think Kaijjajj is going to remain as he is. No more changes, no more updates. Thank you all for your cooperation and help with my character.



I have saw countless SM and BA characters from both the codexes and other resources such as Imperial Armour with the same amount of rules as Kaijjajj has or maybe even more in the case of one or two. 2 of the rules he has are mandatory anyways, And They Shall Know No Fear and Independant Character. 4 unique rules isn't dreadful as some of you are making it out to be, heck I'm sure goody-two-shoes Calgar has about the same maybe more. He has 1 PIECE!!! of unique wargear so how on earth is that bad!? Wargear from Dante? Where on earth is there wargear from Dante please do 'enlighten' me.

I didn't steal Dante's rule. I wrote that myself and then I remembered Dante had Tactical Precision. Lemartes? How on earth did I steal from Lemartes I mean really, somebody tell me! True, I did take that one move from Seth but only due to it fitting the fluff of Kaijjajj so much.

He has Strength 5, some marines I know have Strength 5, I can't name them off of the top of my head which seems shady but there are some out there with Strength 5, and that is on Kaijjajj to represent the brawn he needs to wield the Tip in the way he does.

Hand Flamer was a maybe so everybody stop getting your knickers in a twist.

The Tip is remaining as it is.

I haven't made an uber badass who can take on an entire army. And actually I did base him off of an existing character, the Sanguinor, who yes I admit has a preety big stat-line but I still based him and then reduced and added.

No eternal warrior? 1 bright lance/dark lance, lascannon etc. He will be dead outright regardless of his special rules and CC power-house statline.

Assuming this guy can't charge when he deepstrikes my initial reaction to him would simply be turn around, with the new wound allocation (nearest) rules, and aim to put several lances into the guy with my DE, or maybe just one.

That said compared to any character in the DE codex that I know of, would lose by default to this guy and his 2+ save but thats another matter entirely.

Im not sure what a few of the blood angel special rules do specifically but knocking a single wound off him makes him run at you mindlessly? I think its justifiable to say this guy is full of flaws, his most redeeming one being no eternal warrior at T4

Sasa0mg wrote:No eternal warrior? 1 bright lance/dark lance, lascannon etc. He will be dead outright regardless of his special rules and CC power-house statline.

Assuming this guy can't charge when he deepstrikes my initial reaction to him would simply be turn around, with the new wound allocation (nearest) rules, and aim to put several lances into the guy with my DE, or maybe just one.

That said compared to any character in the DE codex that I know of, would lose by default to this guy and his 2+ save but thats another matter entirely.

Im not sure what a few of the blood angel special rules do specifically but knocking a single wound off him makes him run at you mindlessly? I think its justifiable to say this guy is full of flaws, his most redeeming one being no eternal warrior at T4

I can see what you mean but if I was to add Eternal Warrior to the bill it would seriously make him over the top and massively OP, let alone the abuse I'd recieve from people

You're refering to Bleeding Madness right? Basically, when a single drop of blood is spilt, his specifically, he goes into a blood-driven frenzy, a result of extensive gene-tampering by the Chapter's founding fathers who were attempting to 'cure' the flaws in the Blood Angels gene-seed. They are mad, beserk even, flirting with the edge of Chaos, so when his blood is spilt he goes mad and runs at you mindlessly, his self-control lost to the lure of killing in the name of the Emperor and Sanguinius.

We wanted to balance him, obviously, so we added some drawbacks. I think a lot of people just look at the first couple of rules, see he has more, assume they are as powerful as the first couple, and cry "cheese!" Yes, he can take almost anyone. Personally, I think Mephiston is UP. But he does have drawbacks. For instance, Every other character that I can think of in this points bracket has either a retinue to hang around with or Eternal Warrior. Yes, three lascannons, lances, etc on him on average will cause ID. And no, he can't assault after deep striking, so you'll have enough time to shoot at him.

crimsonfist832 wrote:

Spoiler:

I know I said I wanted C&C and everybody has provided me with it, some more useful than others, but I think Kaijjajj is going to remain as he is. No more changes, no more updates. Thank you all for your cooperation and help with my character.



I have saw countless SM and BA characters from both the codexes and other resources such as Imperial Armour with the same amount of rules as Kaijjajj has or maybe even more in the case of one or two. 2 of the rules he has are mandatory anyways, And They Shall Know No Fear and Independant Character. 4 unique rules isn't dreadful as some of you are making it out to be, heck I'm sure goody-two-shoes Calgar has about the same maybe more. He has 1 PIECE!!! of unique wargear so how on earth is that bad!? Wargear from Dante? Where on earth is there wargear from Dante please do 'enlighten' me.

I didn't steal Dante's rule. I wrote that myself and then I remembered Dante had Tactical Precision. Lemartes? How on earth did I steal from Lemartes I mean really, somebody tell me! True, I did take that one move from Seth but only due to it fitting the fluff of Kaijjajj so much.

He has Strength 5, some marines I know have Strength 5, I can't name them off of the top of my head which seems shady but there are some out there with Strength 5, and that is on Kaijjajj to represent the brawn he needs to wield the Tip in the way he does.

Hand Flamer was a maybe so everybody stop getting your knickers in a twist.

The Tip is remaining as it is.

I haven't made an uber badass who can take on an entire army. And actually I did base him off of an existing character, the Sanguinor, who yes I admit has a preety big stat-line but I still based him and then reduced and added.

"Goody-two-shoes" Calgar has TWO unique special rules. Lemartes gets stronger when he loses his first wound, just as your guy does. If you cannot see how having a S8 Power Weapon with I4 (if using that stance) (even I5 once he's wounded, seriously?) is a bit silly, look at all the gripe Mephiston gets. Alternatively, having 6 S6 attacks at I6 is also kinda silly. He has to pass a psyker test for his strength, AND another if he wants to get the ID effect. This guy just has to walk up to, say, a Trygon and say "I'd like you to die now please, Shadow in the Warp doesn't matter, bend over!". Furthermore, Mephiston, while he has T6, doesn't have an invulnerable save and isn't Jump Infantry base.

There are a grand total of 4 Space Marines with more than 4 strength on their profile: Kaldor Draigo, Mephiston, Arjac Rockfist and the Sanguinor. Draigo's the Chapter Master of the Grey Knights, Mephiston has overcome the Black Rage and the Sanguinor's for all intents and purpouses an Imperial Daemon. Arjac Rockfist is in the Space Wolves Codex, a Codex that one-ups everything in Codex: Space Marines just because they can.

Lastly, if his spear is so infernally heavy that only he can wield it, how does he lash out against opponents who leave an opening in their guard? Where does he wield his Storm Shield?

I was going to reply again, but AlmightyWalrus has summed up what I was going to say perfectly.

To put the Strength argument in perspective, once your character takes a wound he is suddenly hitting as hard as a dreadnought even without his weapon buffs. What exactly is your explanation for this?

Again, the absolute worst part of this character IMO is that he inflicts Instant Death just because he wants to. Even Mephiston needs to pass a psychic test to inflict ID.

Face it guys, he's not going to be swayed. Let him be and let his friends inform him how OTT this guy is when playtesting.