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crimsonfist832 wrote:
I can see what you mean but if I was to add Eternal Warrior to the bill it would seriously make him over the top and massively OP,

Honestly, it wouldn't change anything. It's already over the top and massively overpowered. You are very close to giving him a rule that says "on a d6 roll of 2+, win the game".

King Pariah wrote:Face it guys, he's not going to be swayed. Let him be and let his friends inform him how OTT this guy is when playtesting.

Yes unfortunately I won't. For the time being he will remain as he is, I'll go over him again soon and try and reduce more but I'm getting so much abuse (and although I admit posting something to the web and asking for C&C will invite hate) that atm I just am going to leave him as he is.

Orblivion wrote:I was going to reply again, but AlmightyWalrus has summed up what I was going to say perfectly.

To put the Strength argument in perspective, once your character takes a wound he is suddenly hitting as hard as a dreadnought even without his weapon buffs. What exactly is your explanation for this?

Again, the absolute worst part of this character IMO is that he inflicts Instant Death just because he wants to. Even Mephiston needs to pass a psychic test to inflict ID.

Well maybe, just maybe, he is a Dreadnought.... in disguise! Never thought of that one did ya? But no seriously, I admit hitting at Strength 6 is lots but Mephiston can do it, it may not be everybody's favourite but Mephiston can still do it. Even Astorath's The Executioner's Axe strikes at Strength 6 (Kaijjajj strikes at Strength 8 which is given, but Astoraths axe is a 6 still!! ) so.... Not the greatest argument I could pose but an argument still. As for the Instant Death, that wasn't my idea but was the idea of a friend so I can alter that no problem.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

crimsonfist832 wrote:

Spoiler:

I know I said I wanted C&C and everybody has provided me with it, some more useful than others, but I think Kaijjajj is going to remain as he is. No more changes, no more updates. Thank you all for your cooperation and help with my character.



I have saw countless SM and BA characters from both the codexes and other resources such as Imperial Armour with the same amount of rules as Kaijjajj has or maybe even more in the case of one or two. 2 of the rules he has are mandatory anyways, And They Shall Know No Fear and Independant Character. 4 unique rules isn't dreadful as some of you are making it out to be, heck I'm sure goody-two-shoes Calgar has about the same maybe more. He has 1 PIECE!!! of unique wargear so how on earth is that bad!? Wargear from Dante? Where on earth is there wargear from Dante please do 'enlighten' me.

I didn't steal Dante's rule. I wrote that myself and then I remembered Dante had Tactical Precision. Lemartes? How on earth did I steal from Lemartes I mean really, somebody tell me! True, I did take that one move from Seth but only due to it fitting the fluff of Kaijjajj so much.

He has Strength 5, some marines I know have Strength 5, I can't name them off of the top of my head which seems shady but there are some out there with Strength 5, and that is on Kaijjajj to represent the brawn he needs to wield the Tip in the way he does.

Hand Flamer was a maybe so everybody stop getting your knickers in a twist.

The Tip is remaining as it is.

I haven't made an uber badass who can take on an entire army. And actually I did base him off of an existing character, the Sanguinor, who yes I admit has a preety big stat-line but I still based him and then reduced and added.

"Goody-two-shoes" Calgar has TWO unique special rules. Lemartes gets stronger when he loses his first wound, just as your guy does. If you cannot see how having a S8 Power Weapon with I4 (if using that stance) (even I5 once he's wounded, seriously?) is a bit silly, look at all the gripe Mephiston gets. Alternatively, having 6 S6 attacks at I6 is also kinda silly. He has to pass a psyker test for his strength, AND another if he wants to get the ID effect. This guy just has to walk up to, say, a Trygon and say "I'd like you to die now please, Shadow in the Warp doesn't matter, bend over!". Furthermore, Mephiston, while he has T6, doesn't have an invulnerable save and isn't Jump Infantry base.

There are a grand total of 4 Space Marines with more than 4 strength on their profile: Kaldor Draigo, Mephiston, Arjac Rockfist and the Sanguinor. Draigo's the Chapter Master of the Grey Knights, Mephiston has overcome the Black Rage and the Sanguinor's for all intents and purpouses an Imperial Daemon. Arjac Rockfist is in the Space Wolves Codex, a Codex that one-ups everything in Codex: Space Marines just because they can.

Lastly, if his spear is so infernally heavy that only he can wield it, how does he lash out against opponents who leave an opening in their guard? Where does he wield his Storm Shield?

Ok, 2 unique rules, but he still has 7 rules all-in-all, Eternal Warrior included! Alright Lemartes has that but I didn't know so drop that, but on top of increasing his Strength by +1 to 5 it also does his Attacks up by +3 to 5 so he gets more. I'll reduce the Initiative penalty on the Tip to -3, might even take it down to -4. Mephiston has Strength 6, Toughness 6, Wounds 5, Initiative 7!!!! and even a 2+ armour save so why am I getting so much abuse over my stat-line. As for Mephiston not having an invuln. save that's his fault then isn't it for not being a Captain or Master and for being a Librarian. The Iron Halo is a base piece of wargear for a Captain/Master so you cannot moan at that. Jump Infantry stems from Kaijjajj having a Jump Pack and that's kind of required me thinks so why moan at that either.

Total of 4 marines with a Strength higher than 4. Kaldor and Arjac are plain marines, I give you Sanguinor and Mephiston because they're extraordinary, but Kaldor and Arjac are plain marines still, Kaldor being a Master and Arjac being a champion so why can't a Master specialising in combat who has trained that way also have a Strength higher than 4? Given all marines train in combat to a certain degree, but not to the extent of Kaijjajj where his Ballistic Skill has been reduced to nought.

As for the thing about the Tip that's the whole point! It's so heavy that only he, and he alone, can wield it with ease, that's how he lash out against opponents. The shield is strapped to his wrist, ever think of that?

You seem to be forgetting some important things here. The fact that:
A) He has no ranged ability.
B) He can easily be manipulated by anyone with a brain because of rage if you can put a wound on him. If you can't force one 2+ save to fail then you're doing something wrong.
C) Deepstrike and sit around to get ID'd or footslog up there, taking more fire. Your choice.
D) ~ 300 points and no EW means it's a high premium to pay for a character that can potentially die to one shot. On average, 3 lascannon hits will kill him.

Yes, he's powerful. For a fan made character which will never see a tournament nor anything outside of an arranged friendly game, I think he is within acceptable standards. And, at the end of the day, his opponent can always say "No". And no, he isn't close to "on a D6 2+, win the game". That comment is honestly ridiculous.

crimsonfist832 wrote:
Ok, 2 unique rules, but he still has 7 rules all-in-all, Eternal Warrior included! Alright Lemartes has that but I didn't know so drop that, but on top of increasing his Strength by +1 to 5 it also does his Attacks up by +3 to 5 so he gets more. I'll reduce the Initiative penalty on the Tip to -3, might even take it down to -4. Mephiston has Strength 6, Toughness 6, Wounds 5, Initiative 7!!!! and even a 2+ armour save so why am I getting so much abuse over my stat-line. As for Mephiston not having an invuln. save that's his fault then isn't it for not being a Captain or Master and for being a Librarian. The Iron Halo is a base piece of wargear for a Captain/Master so you cannot moan at that. Jump Infantry stems from Kaijjajj having a Jump Pack and that's kind of required me thinks so why moan at that either.

Total of 4 marines with a Strength higher than 4. Kaldor and Arjac are plain marines, I give you Sanguinor and Mephiston because they're extraordinary, but Kaldor and Arjac are plain marines still, Kaldor being a Master and Arjac being a champion so why can't a Master specialising in combat who has trained that way also have a Strength higher than 4? Given all marines train in combat to a certain degree, but not to the extent of Kaijjajj where his Ballistic Skill has been reduced to nought.

As for the thing about the Tip that's the whole point! It's so heavy that only he, and he alone, can wield it with ease, that's how he lash out against opponents. The shield is strapped to his wrist, ever think of that?

Yes, he has 7 rules, 4 of which are USRs and one that he'll never be allowed to use. The entire point of having few unique special rules is that it reduces the strain on your opponent: you know what "Furious Charge" does, for example, but do you know what "Only in Death does Duty end" does?

Lemartes does get extra attacks, true. He doesn't ID T4 or lower models and pen most vehicles in the game on a 2+. He also only has two wounds, so losing one is "halfway there" so to speak.

As for Mephiston: He doesn't get an Invulnerable Save because he'd be fething broken with one, not because he's also a Librarian. He also isn't guaranteed to get jump infantry or get to hit with the strength of a Power Fist; your guy is. You're getting abuse for your statlines because Mephiston does too; he's referred to as a "infantry daemon prince" for a reason, but he STILL requires psychic tests to do his thing. WS7 is plausible though, so I won't complain about that. 8 would be too much, 7 is OK.

Base strength: Kaldor Draigo is far from a "normal marine". He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. They're probably THE toughest Space Marine Chapter in existance, and he's the head honcho. For Arjac, refer to my post; Codex: Space Wolves one-ups Codex: Space Marines without any good reason (Chaplains giving PE instead of rerolls on the charge, Long Fangs splitting fire and being cheaper, Grey Hunters, Rune Priests etc.).

As for all Space Marines training in Close Combat: Why would your guy be so much more awesome than every other Chapter that focuses on melee? Dante's been the Chapter Master of a melee-centric Chapter for 1100 years, he's not S5. Logan's 700+ years old, he's S4 base. Helbrecht's High Marshal of what could possibly be the most batgak crazy Chapter there is, and he's S4. The real issue with your dude having S5 though is that he reaches S8 with his weapon, which lets him ID T4 (i.e. most of the stuff in the game), while not suffering the effects of having a Power Fist (admittedly only AP3 though). It also lets him easily get a wound on a Monstrous Creature, which then promptly suffers a critical existence failure and falls over dead due to "Death or Glory".

So he's wielding a massive spear that no one else could hope to wield IN ONE HAND while using his other for his shield?

liquidjoshi wrote:You seem to be forgetting some important things here. The fact that:
A) He has no ranged ability.

Neither does beatsticks such as the Swarmlord, Abaddon, the Sanguinor or Lysander. The only super-beatsticks with a ranged attack that's actually worth something are Draigo and Mephiston, in Draigo's case a template and in Meph's case a plasma pistol.

liquidjoshi wrote:B) He can easily be manipulated by anyone with a brain because of rage if you can put a wound on him. If you can't force one 2+ save to fail then you're doing something wrong.

If you're running this guy on his own, you're doing something wrong.

liquidjoshi wrote:C) Deepstrike and sit around to get ID'd or footslog up there, taking more fire. Your choice.

This made me realize that I've forgotten to ask what Codex this dude is for. I've assumed Blood Angels due to the comparisons to various BA Characters and due to the Chapter name. If it is indeed Blood Angels then Deep Striking is hardly a drawback; he'd fit right into a Descent of Angels army. If it's not BA his power drops dramatically and he's not as good any more, due to not having access to good Deep Striking meatshields to use his non-scatter with.

liquidjoshi wrote:D) ~ 300 points and no EW means it's a high premium to pay for a character that can potentially die to one shot. On average, 3 lascannon hits will kill him.

True. Unlike Mephiston, though, he's an Independent Character. He gets a 3++ followed by a 2+ LOS!, and that's if he's the closest model to start with. Again, why would you run him without meatshields?

liquidjoshi wrote:And no, he isn't close to "on a D6 2+, win the game". That comment is honestly ridiculous.

That I can agree with.

EDIT: And if you can't take people's opinions without labelling it as "hate", I suggest you don't ask for our opinions in the first place.

1)Wrong. Abaddon, has a ranged attack, and is probably better than Kaij in CC.

2)So, you say you have to run him with something to keep him alive. Another point for me then, clearly he isn't OP if he needs meatshields.

3)He would fit into a DoA army. It's what he was designed for.

4)So drop the IC on him. Suddenly those meatshields you were talking about earlier can't stick with him. He's now rather easy to distract and kill.

5)Well, at least we agree on one thing.

And I'm not labelling anyone's opinions as "hate". Although the users here can be blunt, I realise there is always some sort of criticism that can be taken and used productively - for example, seeing as your main concern seems to be with his survivability and strength, I would drop the Tip to granting +2 strength, and remove the Independent character rule.

I'll be interested to see how he plays though, and the changes Crimson undertakes based on how he performs.

liquidjoshi wrote:1)Wrong. Abaddon, has a ranged attack, and is probably better than Kaij in CC.

So he does, I stand corrected. This guy hits just as hard as Abaddon though. Abaddon gets (crucially) EW, rerolls to wound and probably more attacks, but can also hit himself in the face and is stuck either going in a Land Raider, Deep Striking with scatter or walking. He's not Jump Infantry and doesn't get a 3++.

liquidjoshi wrote:2)So, you say you have to run him with something to keep him alive. Another point for me then, clearly he isn't OP if he needs meatshields.

Not sure if serious or just trolling. TBH you could just as well drop him behind enemy lines on his own and go to town, but he gets exponentially more powerful in a squad. If he didn't have IC you'd have a point, but he does, and has a good force multiplier rule as well as his beastly stats.

liquidjoshi wrote:3)He would fit into a DoA army. It's what he was designed for.

This, while not wrong in any way, is just silly. The only thing that is remotely dangerous for this guy in CC is stuff that 9 times out of 10 strike at I1. If there's a Sergeant with a Power Fist in the enemy squad, chances are his brains are going to paint the surroundings before he gets to swing. Look at Dante: He's good in close combat and adds utility in letting one squad not scatter. This guy is like some sort of unholy fusion between Mephiston, Lemartes, Seth and Dante.

liquidjoshi wrote:4)So drop the IC on him. Suddenly those meatshields you were talking about earlier can't stick with him. He's now rather easy to distract and kill.

That would make him reasonable enough, he could actually even get a boost to T5 in that case, since he wouldn't be able to hide behind others. It'd make him much weaker to small-arms fire while preventing him from getting punked by a S8 or S9 shot, and still letting ID-weapons kill him.

liquidjoshi wrote:
And I'm not labelling anyone's opinions as "hate". Although the users here can be blunt, I realise there is always some sort of criticism that can be taken and used productively - for example, seeing as your main concern seems to be with his survivability and strength, I would drop the Tip to granting +2 strength, and remove the Independent character rule.

Sorry, should've been more clear, that was aimed at Crimson, not at you.

I have dropped the Tip down to granting +2 Strength. I have put Kaijjajj up at 290 Points also. I am thinking of dropping Instant Death on the Death or Glory stance of Art of War, and instead having it grant +2 Toughness, +2 Wounds? Does that sounds about right?

Not +2 wounds. That really doesn't make sense. I think you should consider Walrus' suggestion of dropping IC, but increasing toughness to 5 though. I think that would be fluffy for your Character too, as I can see him going in solo rather than hanging about with a squad of honour guard.

liquidjoshi wrote:Not +2 wounds. That really doesn't make sense. I think you should consider Walrus' suggestion of dropping IC, but increasing toughness to 5 though. I think that would be fluffy for your Character too, as I can see him going in solo rather than hanging about with a squad of honour guard.

Hmmm, my only problem with that is well, he's a character. Lemartes, Sanguinor, and Mephiston don't have IC and they are also characters so it's not like it wouldn't have been done before. But like I said the problem is he's a character, wouldn't it be fitting for him to have IC? It also confers some nice bonuses too doesn't it.

It is fitting, but he is a bit of a beatstick. I've been thinking about him in isolation, rather than with any sort of squad joining him. They survive without it, why not him?

Sorry if I came along as ar*ey or anything like that Walrus. I know I asked for C&C regarding Kaijjajj and with that invited flame against my character, that's what happens, not everybody likes everything, and everything has it's flaw. I am responsible, it was my action, sorry if I came along as not being able to take it, it is just that I spent a lot of time on this with liquid and to have more people tell me it's wrong was a little gutting and got me a little flustered.

Onto improvements. So hang on then... hang on. Drop IC from the bill of rules and a Toughness value of 5 is then justified? I would actually suffer that. Could I keep that Chapter Master mini-rule but have it require him to take a bodyguard to represent the Chapter demanding he go out with adequate protection due to him being a high-profile target for the enemy, although he can take care of himself preety well. I could imagine him going out with his hand-picked cadre of CC.

Also I really am now thinking of dropping Instand Death from the Death or Glory stance from the Art of War rule, but I want to replace it with one or two buffs which make him that little more resistant, showing how he fully prepares himself to take on a single opponent he has singled out as worthy for him too kill. +2 or +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, +1 Initiative??? Any help on this area??? Preeeeeety preeeeeeety pleeeeeeaaase????

Rerolls to hit in challenges perhaps?

Initiative or re rolls to hit sound good.

Ok ok. What one would be preferable? Or would it be possible to take both? Too much???

Both is probably too much. Re-rolls in challenges is probably a better bet.

liquidjoshi wrote:Both is probably too much. Re-rolls in challenges is probably a better bet.

Alright then I'll go with the re-rolls. How would I explain that in terms of the entry for Kaijjajj under Art of War? Re-rolls to what specifically, how many, when? and so on.

Have we also taken into consideration that this in the BA codex where FnP and Furious charge are handed out like candy?

That makes this character truly terrifying and broken on multiple levels.

Only he doesn't have FNP. Not our fault that priests hand out FNP, Mehpiston and all the others can gain from that too.

Blacksails wrote:Have we also taken into consideration that this in the BA codex where FnP and Furious charge are handed out like candy?

That makes this character truly terrifying and broken on multiple levels.

Well that's nonsense. The character isn't broken because the codex he is fielded with has a unit which hands out Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. How is that down to me? Exactly as liquid said, every other unit and character in the codex benefits from that so doesn't make him broken.

On another note regarding the Death or Glory stance, what will I put down? It's basically a codex entry right, so what would it read in an actual codex entry? How many re-rolls, what specific re-rolls, any help with this please?

crimsonfist832 wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Have we also taken into consideration that this in the BA codex where FnP and Furious charge are handed out like candy?

That makes this character truly terrifying and broken on multiple levels.

Well that's nonsense. The character isn't broken because the codex he is fielded with has a unit which hands out Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. How is that down to me? Exactly as liquid said, every other unit and character in the codex benefits from that so doesn't make him broken.

Yes, it IS up to you. The Codex Characters were designed with all this in mind, you should have it in mind too. Suppose that Eldar got a unit that is a carbon-copy of TH/SS Terminators. On paper they're good, but not broken. With access to Fortune, they become silly. Again, though, I don't see him being broken if he's on his own, without IC status.

crimsonfist832 wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Have we also taken into consideration that this in the BA codex where FnP and Furious charge are handed out like candy?

That makes this character truly terrifying and broken on multiple levels.

Well that's nonsense. The character isn't broken because the codex he is fielded with has a unit which hands out Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. How is that down to me? Exactly as liquid said, every other unit and character in the codex benefits from that so doesn't make him broken.

Actually, yes, it is something you need to consider. If you understood how codices have internal and external balance (or lack thereof with some), then you'd understand the limitations you should be imposing on your character. Notice how BA captains can't take relic blades? Its because they'd be striking at S7 on the charge (though, admittedly there is debate whether or FC affect relic blades). Theoretically, every unit in that codex is balanced so that adding a priest doesn't make them broken, based on increase costs and the cost of the priest himself. The moment you attach your character to a unit with a priest, your character suddenly becomes ungodly stupid broken. S9 on the charge, 2+, 4++, and a 5+++ that can only be negated by a S10 weapon.

You have to consider what synergy there is in your codex (internal balance) and how it stacks up to other codices, particularly similar ones (external balance) when creating characters. I know you are frustrated with a lot of us here, but text doesn't convey emotion very well and I don't use smileys and other such nonsense to make my posts seem more flowery. Understand that I'm trying to explain what you should be thinking about when designing characters/units. I'm no expert or anything, but I like to think my advice and points are reasonable, well thought out, and look at all angles.

Do as you please, because you could simply walk away and forget about us all, but if you want to make a fun character for both you and you opponent, then take a good, long second look at your character. Imagine him in the context of your codex and the various builds you could field him in. Imagine in combat with known CC beatsticks and do some mathhammer. Imagine him in the context of 6th ed, where your character can issue challenges. Finally, imagine being your opponent playing against this character, and objectively ask yourself if it would be enjoyable.

OP, ultimately blacksails and others are just trying to look out for you here. The truth is, this forum makes it look like everyone has their own special melee monster special snowflake character(s) and as long as "points are right" everyone is okay playing against that.
In reality, when you put something like this on the table and ask to play it, a lot of people are going to get the impression you're a total dork. They might not say it out loud and they might play a game with you because it's impolite to back down, but in the end it can cost you gaming partners.
I speak for myself here but I'm sure most competitive gamers will agree that if a guy tries to push onto me his homebrew EW TH-that-strikes-at-initiative JP character that doesn't scatter, I will absolutely 100% prioritize playing other people over that guy in the future.

Plus, I mean, current canon says space marines train and fight exclusively for hundreds of years and we already know what all that training equates to - why do you think it is that marines scatter when deploying from deep strike and strike at i1 when using power fists?

CODEX ASTARTES PG40000: SPECIAL DEPLOYMENT CLAUSE 1
-In mockery of their meager rules, C:SM Assault Marines must wear their helmets backwards when deploying in Deep Strike
-To even the playing field, Terminators must get smacker jack crack-attack wasted on the eve of battle, unless they wear giant bird hands.