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Well hello Dakka, it's been a while since I posted and my latest thread as you will obviously see by coming onto it is my homebrew Chapter Master. As the title suggests, I need some C&C as I really like the concept I have for both my Chapter... and my Chapter Master in particular, who is, well, the avatar and embodiment of the Chapter. My Chapter Master fluff-wise is an absolute brute in combat as he has specialised in melee since his inducement into it's ranks, my Chapter is known for it's fiery prowess in combat which is why the Master is what he is despite his rather old age. As I said, I'm after C&C but I don't want him being completely changed as I like him as he is, I just need to know if there should be a tweak or two around the place. Also, I need help choosing a points cost for him, seeing as he is what he is I thought of about 315-330 for a points cost, but Sanguinor is preety boss and is only 265 points so I'll wait and see what you all think Dakka. Oh also as a point of note, hese rules have similarities to others just with the odd minor tweak in either the rule or the fluff of the rule, sorry for that Dakka but I love those rules so much I just felt the need to mix them.
Well, enjoy!

KAIJJAJJ XJAS'T'EREFF
Lord High Executioner of the Blood Golems, Spirit of Rage, the Guillotine, Bringer of Despair

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
8 4 5 5 4 6 5 10 2+

Unit Composition:
1 (Unique)

Unit Type:
Jump Infantry

Wargear:
The Scion’s Shroud
Obelisk’s Tip
Storm Shield
Iron Halo
The Foreseeing Gloom

Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Descent of Angels
Independent Character
Dance of Blades
Foresaw Timing
Born Ferociousness
Spirit of Rage
Bleeding Madness
Built Like The Obelisk

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Scion’s Shroud: The relic known as the Scion’s Shroud dates back to the days of the Great Crusade and is held in awe by the Blood Golems. This suit of armour has been preserved through the millennia by the keen minds of the Chapters Bloodforgers, each consecutive Lord High Executioner bearing it with reverence and adding his own personality to it’s already embellished plates. A gracious suit of ’light’ Tactical Dreadnought Armour, the Scion’s Shroud is extremely durable despite it’s rather deceptive look. In-game the Scion’s Shroud counts-as a suit of Artificer Armour with an in-built Jump Pack that grants him a Jump Pack not shown in his profile above, and also changes Kaijjajj’s unit type from Infantry to Jump Infantry as shown in the profile above.

The Obelisk’s Tip: Reputedly gifted to the Blood Golems Chapter personally by their forefathers the Blood Angels for reasons that remain shrouded in secrecy to all but the Blood Golems themselves, the Obelisk’s Tip was carved from the very tip of the Blood Golems Fortress Monastery the Obelisk by the Blood Angels prior to the founding of their beloved home. A massive, barbed, spear-tipped blade that is a deadly bane to the witch, xenos, and daemon alike, and is crafted from the same ultra-dense Obsidian alloy as the Obelisk itself, only one as heavily built and stocky as Kaijjajj could hope to wield it. The Obelisk’s Tip is so large and bulky that although it resembles a blade in shape, when used in the heat of battle it is more resembling to the bludgeoning pain of a hammer or mace. The Obelisk’s Tip is a two-handed weapon that counts as a master-crafted Thunder Hammer, and in addition while using the weapon Kaijjajj gains two extra attacks on a turn when he assaults, rather than the usual one.

The Foreseeing Gloom: This ancient artefact resonates with the thoughts and intrigue of Morghulis, founding father of the Blood Golems. His original Death Mask, this was converted upon Kaijajj’s donning to amplify his psychic presence and ability of the far-seeing eye. Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative, -1 Attack, (all to a minimum of 1) and can be forced once per game to re-roll any roll of the owner of the Foreseeing Gloom’s choice for the remainder of the battle. The Foreseeing Gloom otherwise follows the rules for Death Masks given in the Sanguinary Guard entry on page 50 of Codex: Blood Angels.

Dance of Blades: As long as Kaijjajj is in base contact with an enemy independent character model, he may choose either to gain an additional +1 Attack or reduce a single enemy independent character in base contact’s Attack characteristic by -1 (to a minimum of 1) for that Assault phase. Choose which will apply at the beginning of each Assault phase of combat before any blows are struck by either side.

Foresaw Timing: Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff (and his unit, if he has joined one and only if they have Jump Packs) does not scatter when it deploys by Deep Strike.

Born Ferociousness: Should an enemy drop its guard, Kaijjajj is swift to take advantage, lashing out with a swift punch, kick, or headbutt to knock the foolhardy foe to the floor. For every roll of ‘1’ to hit Kaijjajj in close combat, enemy units immediately suffer an automatic Strength 5 hit as the Lord High Executioner takes advantage of the opening.

Spirit of Rage: A constant aura of palpable grief, bitter hatred, and hot fury surrounds and suffuses Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff, steeling his followers with near suicidal determination and filling the hearts of their enemies with despair. Any friendly unit he joins becomes Fearless, and enemy units that lose a combat that involves Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff must re-roll successful Morale checks to prevent falling back.

Bleeding Madness: At the sight of his own blood (and even that of his foe), Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff’s self-control begins to slip and he begins to become overwhelmed by the curse within his veins. Once he has lost one or more wounds, Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereffs’ Strength and Attacks are both increased by +1, but he also gains the Rage universal special rule for the remainder of the battle, and also confers the Rage rule to any friendly unit he joins or has joined.

Built Like The Obelisk: Blood Angel units in a force that includes Kaijjajj may re-roll failed pinning checks, while Kaijjajj himself has the Feel No Pain universal special rule.

Chapter Master: Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff is a HQ choice for a Codex: Blood Angels army. If you use Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff, then you may take no other Chapter Master, named or otherwise. If Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff is part of your army, you may also include one Blood Angels Honour Guard squad. This unit does not count towards your HQ allowance, but to be fielded must be purchased with the Jump Packs upgrade.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to add, although there may seem like a ton of rules that already OP's him, I had this talk with a friend, just take a quick glance at Sanguinor. I have possibly 1 more rule than him, plus And They Shall Know No Fear and Independant Character are baseline anyways, Descent of Angels being a little less baseline but still baseline due to my character being Codex: Blood Angels. And also had this convo with a friend, but the Foreseeing Gloom is basically the Death Mask of Sanguinius, not OP for the sake of OP, but I chose it so my Master had some resemblance to the Master of their Progenitor rather than just choosing a standard Death Mask which does not befit a Master really.

jesus christ, im going to have to play against this monstrosity...

although it does seem a bit OP, I would like to do some playtesting to see whether it is viable to play against whithout being a gamebreaker

matapata98 wrote:although it does seem a bit OP, I would like to do some playtesting to see whether it is viable to play against whithout being a gamebreaker

Alright I can see what you mean by he seems OP which I admit, he does. I won't have him until September when I go to Games Day UK and get him soo unfortunately for me a playtest is out of the window for at least another 2 months.

That is a lot of rules for one guy, what kind of points level were you looking at for him? I would say to cut down the amount of special rules for him (including special wargear) to four maximum.

The statline isn't ridiculously OP, which gets a from me, however I do feel that 5 Attacks base is excessive, and I don't see any real reason for S and T 5.

On the plus side, I can see this guy has a lot of character and thought behind him, rather than the generic "this is my chapter master, he totally high-fived the emperor and rides a carnifex into battle" kind of guy. I'd recommend keeping him original, so going with rules such as Bleeding Madness and The Foreseeing Gloom, which are good but not cheesy/typical would be good.

Also, don't write rules covering things you can make in the wargear. You don't need The Scion's Shroud when you can cover it with Artificier armour, Jump pack and Iron Halo.

My major gripes are with The Obelisk's Tip, Dance of Blades and Spirit of Rage. Parts of them don't work, and they seem quite cheesy. I would recommend at least re-working them, if not cutting them altogether - it's understandable that you want to make a strong CC monster, but I think these over do it, and spoil an otherwise good character. Take a look at characters such as Calgar, Abaddon, etc and you'll see they only have a few special rules and some exotic wargear to make them powerful.

I definitely think this has the potential to be a fun, well made character, and would like to see it reworked. I hope I've been helpful and that you find a happy medium with the High Executioner.

Edit: Playtesting isn't out the window, just proxy a captain, Dante, Mephiston, etc for him instead.

Those stats and rules are way beyond the scope of Chapter Masters. This is more like a special character version of a Daemon Prince.

liquidjoshi wrote:That is a lot of rules for one guy, what kind of points level were you looking at for him? I would say to cut down the amount of special rules for him (including special wargear) to four maximum.

The statline isn't ridiculously OP, which gets a from me, however I do feel that 5 Attacks base is excessive, and I don't see any real reason for S and T 5.

On the plus side, I can see this guy has a lot of character and thought behind him, rather than the generic "this is my chapter master, he totally high-fived the emperor and rides a carnifex into battle" kind of guy. I'd recommend keeping him original, so going with rules such as Bleeding Madness and The Foreseeing Gloom, which are good but not cheesy/typical would be good.

Also, don't write rules covering things you can make in the wargear. You don't need The Scion's Shroud when you can cover it with Artificier armour, Jump pack and Iron Halo.

My major gripes are with The Obelisk's Tip, Dance of Blades and Spirit of Rage. Parts of them don't work, and they seem quite cheesy. I would recommend at least re-working them, if not cutting them altogether - it's understandable that you want to make a strong CC monster, but I think these over do it, and spoil an otherwise good character. Take a look at characters such as Calgar, Abaddon, etc and you'll see they only have a few special rules and some exotic wargear to make them powerful.

I definitely think this has the potential to be a fun, well made character, and would like to see it reworked. I hope I've been helpful and that you find a happy medium with the High Executioner.

Edit: Playtesting isn't out the window, just proxy a captain, Dante, Mephiston, etc for him instead.

Thanks a lot for the C&C liquid. Thanks for the compliments regarding him, that's what I was aiming for. I don't want him to be one of the voices in the Emperor's head who tells him this, tells him that, and conquered a Hive Fleet... you know, them jock-styled Marines haha.
As for the points level I'm unsure really. Calgar is 250 isn't he? Dante is abouts the same, and as mentioned The Sanguinor is about 265, and they're the closest characters I could have Kaijjajj resemble so I need help on that factor.
I can reduce the Attacks down to 4, as I see what you mean especially with the odd rule that I have which boosts his amount of Attacks. I'll also reduce his Strength down 1 to 4.
And onto the Scion's Shroud, you have opened my eyes. I simply gave a name to the Artificer Armour when all I had to do was have that in fluff rather than a special rule as such. That will go and I'll just add Artificer Armour and a Jump Pack to his list of Wargear.
As for the Obelisk's Tip, that's one of the defining traits and a major thing with the fluff of my Chapter so I'd rather that stay as it is just down to it's origins and such.
Umm I'll try and go through Dance of Blades and Spirit of Rage, what parts don't exactly work or do it for you may I ask?
As I said at the start of my reply you have been rather helpful with this, and from my fluff I have enjoyed making this character, the rules included, so you've gave me a fair bit of insight into improving him.

well to start kaldo draigo the character most like this ridiculousness is what 275?, lets use him as a baseline. Your guy has an uncharacteristically high space marine ws, all SCs with this stat pay highly (vect, draigo, lilith, abbadon). Base 5 atks is one more than draigo and extra atks are aswell at a premium, 5 is the equal of a champion of khorne with ofIfhand weapon. Strength 5 thunderhammer....lysander has 3 atks and 2++/3++ and a few minor rules and pays 210 pts, are we seeing a pattern yet?

Now onto the catastrophe of special rules , on the charge this man has 7 atks, can boost it up to 8 with dance, after bleeding madness gain a 9th atk, and with rage a tenth? This is just a mosh posh of op rules, fnp upto str 10, makes additional atks if people roll a 1? Aswell as dantes mask that nerfs Ics, so you can have 9 atks at str 10 on the charge and use dance to reduce an IC to what two attacks at most in a challenge?

lets be honest here not even considering deepstrike rules, hes a jump infantry, and that he makes enemys stay in combat with him(not that they will make it past one turn anyway). with theae kinda rules atleast 600 pts, at this strength level he would crush anything in the game minus apocolypse units, and even them would still probably punish them aswell, I nearly laughed myself out of my seat that all this and no eternal warrior considering how much thr balance is already poor.

DarknessEternal wrote:Those stats and rules are way beyond the scope of Chapter Masters. This is more like a special character version of a Daemon Prince.

I can see what you mean Dark, but if a Marine has trained furiously in melee for his life and becomes a Master dedicated to that aspect of war shouldn't his stats slightly reflect that? What part of the stats is beyond the scope? I'm going to use it as an example again and although it isn't a Master it's very close to one, but The Sanguinor has a rather tank stat-line.

The Tip doesn't need to give extra CC attacks on the charge, perhaps it can grant FC or something similar. Dance of Blades doesn't really fit; he seems to be swinging a large Cloud-esque blade rather than a darting rapier or fast close combat weapon, which is the only reason I can see for him to drop enemy attacks.

The problem is that you want a character that is shown as inspirational to his troops, can take on any foe and emerge victorious. There's nothing wrong with that, but it tends to create a character that has too much going on, and is ultimately unbalanced. I would say to create a character that can support his troops (through the use of rules like Spirit of rage), one that can take all comers (I think that's what you're trying to do.) or one that can sweep aside hordes with ease (not really happening here, but that isn't a problem.)

Personally I don't think anything is wrong with the statline that is game breaking, his low BS compensates for his high WS - I get the feeling he's trained in CC all his life rather than being balanced. Crowe has the same WS and will cost less probably.

If you want to PM me to bounce ideas I would be happy to help. I think your main aim would be deciding
A) Points tier you want. Likely to be 250+
B) What you want him to do. Take all comers CC monster, Horde sweeper, Force multiplier or something unique.
C) What rules fit his fluff best.
D) What can be covered by USRs and wargear
E) Another look at the statline, and whether it is justified.

liquidjoshi wrote:The Tip doesn't need to give extra CC attacks on the charge, perhaps it can grant FC or something similar. Dance of Blades doesn't really fit; he seems to be swinging a large Cloud-esque blade rather than a darting rapier or fast close combat weapon, which is the only reason I can see for him to drop enemy attacks.

The problem is that you want a character that is shown as inspirational to his troops, can take on any foe and emerge victorious. There's nothing wrong with that, but it tends to create a character that has too much going on, and is ultimately unbalanced. I would say to create a character that can support his troops (through the use of rules like Spirit of rage), one that can take all comers (I think that's what you're trying to do.) or one that can sweep aside hordes with ease (not really happening here, but that isn't a problem.)

Personally I don't think anything is wrong with the statline that is game breaking, his low BS compensates for his high WS - I get the feeling he's trained in CC all his life rather than being balanced. Crowe has the same WS and will cost less probably.

If you want to PM me to bounce ideas I would be happy to help. I think your main aim would be deciding
A) Points tier you want. Likely to be 250+
B) What you want him to do. Take all comers CC monster, Horde sweeper, Force multiplier or something unique.
C) What rules fit his fluff best.
D) What can be covered by USRs and wargear
E) Another look at the statline, and whether it is justified.

I've sent the PM

crimsonfist832 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Those stats and rules are way beyond the scope of Chapter Masters. This is more like a special character version of a Daemon Prince.

I can see what you mean Dark, but if a Marine has trained furiously in melee for his life and becomes a Master dedicated to that aspect of war shouldn't his stats slightly reflect that? What part of the stats is beyond the scope? I'm going to use it as an example again and although it isn't a Master it's very close to one, but The Sanguinor has a rather tank stat-line.

Two things:
1. All marines train furiously in melee their entire lives. They're stats are not this high.

2. The Sanquinor is not a Chapter Master. He's not even a Marine, he's a daemon.

Right well. After one or two days of using feedback from the comments and with an awful lot of help from liquidjoshi (thanks a lot mate) Kaijjajj has been re-worked and is almost finished with all that is left being his points cost and to work one or two things with his new Art of War rule.
So, enjoy more C&C wanted!

KAIJJAJJ XJAS'T'EREFF
Lord High Executioner of the Blood Golems, Spirit of Rage, the Guillotine, Bringer of Despair

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
8 3 5 5 4 6 4 10 2+

Unit Composition:
1 (Unique)

Unit Type:
Jump Infantry

Wargear:
Artificer Armour
Jump Pack
Death Mask
Obelisk’s Tip
Storm Shield
Iron Halo

Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Independent Character
Foresaw Timing
Born Ferociousness
Bleeding Madness
Art of War

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Obelisk’s Tip: Reputedly gifted to the Blood Golems Chapter personally by their forefathers the Blood Angels for reasons that remain shrouded in secrecy to all but the Blood Golems themselves, the Obelisk’s Tip was carved from the very tip of the Blood Golems Fortress Monastery the Obelisk by the Blood Angels prior to the founding of their beloved home. A massive, barbed, spear-tipped blade that is a deadly bane to the witch, xenos, and daemon alike, and is crafted from the same ultra-dense Obsidian alloy as the Obelisk itself, only one as heavily built and stocky as Kaijjajj could hope to wield it. The Obelisk’s Tip is so large and bulky that although it resembles a blade in shape, when used in the heat of battle it is more resembling to the bludgeoning pain of a hammer or mace. The Obelisk’s Tip is a two-handed weapon that counts as a master-crafted Thunder Hammer, and in addition while using the weapon Kaijjajj strikes at -2 Initiative rather than the normally applied Initiative 1.

Foresaw Timing: Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff (and his unit, if he has joined one and only if they have Jump Packs) does not scatter when it deploys by Deep Strike.

Born Ferociousness: Should an enemy drop its guard, Kaijjajj is swift to take advantage, lashing out with a swift punch, kick, or headbutt to knock the foolhardy foe to the floor. For every roll of ‘1’ to hit Kaijjajj in close combat, enemy units immediately suffer an automatic Strength 5 hit as the Lord High Executioner takes advantage of the opening.

Bleeding Madness: At the sight of his own blood (and even that of his foe), Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff’s self-control begins to slip and he begins to become overwhelmed by the curse within his veins. Once he has lost one or more wounds, Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereffs’ Strength and Attacks are both increased by +1, but he also gains the Rage universal special rule for the remainder of the battle, and also confers the Rage rule to any friendly unit he joins or has joined.

Art of War: The Lord High Executioner of the Blood Golems has spent many harsh, gruelling, and dedicated decades honing his skills in the crucible of melee and close quarters combat, eschewing his ballistic prowess for greater abilities in this bloody theatre. In truth, few can stand before him when he is in combat, for he has a martial style to combat every opponent. At the beginning of the Assault phase, you may select one of the following 'Stances' for Kaijjajj to use in this round of combat:
Whirlwind: Kaijjajj swirls around in a furious assault, decimating his foes. He uses the following profile to attack - S:5 AP:3 I:5 A:6 (and applied bonuses for charging and special rules)
Death or Glory: Kaijjajj singles out his foe and engages, until either he, or they, are dead. He uses the following profile to attack - S:8 AP:2 I:6 A:4 (and applied bonuses for charging and special rules. These attacks inflict Instant Death regardless of the opponents Toughness value.)

Chapter Master: Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff is a HQ choice for a Codex: Blood Angels army. If you use Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff, then you may take no other Chapter Master, named or otherwise. If Kaijjajj Xjas’t’ereff is part of your army, you may also include one Blood Angels Honour Guard squad. This unit does not count towards your HQ allowance, but to be fielded must be purchased with the Jump Packs upgrade.

Points? Should also be noted that I meant the old version of rage; this might have to be re-worked (not a massive problem) I also want to talk to you about the stances, and make it so that the Tip works with them (right now it isn't at all clear which to use), and i thought he was strength 4. But otherwise, I think we're there

liquidjoshi wrote:Points? Should also be noted that I meant the old version of rage; this might have to be re-worked (not a massive problem) I also want to talk to you about the stances, and make it so that the Tip works with them (right now it isn't at all clear which to use), and i thought he was strength 4. But otherwise, I think we're there

Not sure on the Points liquid might need to look through all my dexs at other high point characters, compare them, then look at mine and try and decide a valid points cost but might need your help on this as well, I'm really stumped for the points cost. Alright then, well as soon as you're free I'd love to begin finishing him then.

Well, Stat wise he's looking to be slightly shy of Abaddon, stronger in CC than Calgar, but without buffs to any squad. He could take Drazhar in CC, but I do think we should drop the Storm Shield. With the Iron Halo he doesn't really need it. Points wise, I think something in the region of 260 points is reasonable, maybe less because he doesn't have eternal warrior.

Why does he need WS8? Every other Chapter Master (well, except Helbrecht, but old Codex is old) has WS6, why is this guy so much more amazing than everyone else? Even Grey Knight Grand Masters are only WS6. This guy would be as good at melee as an assassin, which IMO is a bit over the top.

Perhaps. I would agree that it could be dropped to WS7, but this guy has trained in CC to the exclusion of all else (hence BS3). Crowe is also WS8, although Abbadon is WS6/7, your basic Archon is also WS7. I think 7 would be the minimum.

liquidjoshi wrote:Perhaps. I would agree that it could be dropped to WS7, but this guy has trained in CC to the exclusion of all else (hence BS3). Crowe is also WS8, although Abbadon is WS6/7, your basic Archon is also WS7. I think 7 would be the minimum.

Just as a comparison: Khârn is WS7.

Ah, That's good. I think 7 sounds fair then, but ultimately it's down to crimsonfist to make the choice.

I understand the faults you can see with WS:8 but as liquid said he has literally trained in close combat to the point that his ballistic prowess is nought even for a space marine, not to mention it's his Chapter's favoured technique of warfare and that his Chapter are successors to the Blood Angels who are ultimately one of the greatest Chapters for swordsmen and melee prowess. As for dropping the Storm Shield I'd rather keep it, it's an integral part of him, it's in his fluff, and it's a part of the minie I'm making soo yeh I would rather keep it.

Makes him a bit OP. But then, all the other examples have EW whereas he doesn't, so I guess it's balanced.

crimsonfist832 wrote:I understand the faults you can see with WS:8 but as liquid said he has literally trained in close combat to the point that his ballistic prowess is nought even for a space marine, not to mention it's his Chapter's favoured technique of warfare and that his Chapter are successors to the Blood Angels who are ultimately one of the greatest Chapters for swordsmen and melee prowess. As for dropping the Storm Shield I'd rather keep it, it's an integral part of him, it's in his fluff, and it's a part of the minie I'm making soo yeh I would rather keep it.

As opposed to Khârn who does what? Picks flowers all day?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

crimsonfist832 wrote:I understand the faults you can see with WS:8 but as liquid said he has literally trained in close combat to the point that his ballistic prowess is nought even for a space marine, not to mention it's his Chapter's favoured technique of warfare and that his Chapter are successors to the Blood Angels who are ultimately one of the greatest Chapters for swordsmen and melee prowess. As for dropping the Storm Shield I'd rather keep it, it's an integral part of him, it's in his fluff, and it's a part of the minie I'm making soo yeh I would rather keep it.

As opposed to Khârn who does what? Picks flowers all day?

Oh yeh didn't you know? When Kharn is supposed to be 'killing' for Khorne he's usually out in the fields of some Maiden World skipping, holding hands with Bloodletters, and picking flowers.... god get with the times.

crimsonfist832 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

crimsonfist832 wrote:I understand the faults you can see with WS:8 but as liquid said he has literally trained in close combat to the point that his ballistic prowess is nought even for a space marine, not to mention it's his Chapter's favoured technique of warfare and that his Chapter are successors to the Blood Angels who are ultimately one of the greatest Chapters for swordsmen and melee prowess. As for dropping the Storm Shield I'd rather keep it, it's an integral part of him, it's in his fluff, and it's a part of the minie I'm making soo yeh I would rather keep it.

As opposed to Khârn who does what? Picks flowers all day?

Oh yeh didn't you know? When Kharn is supposed to be 'killing' for Khorne he's usually out in the fields of some Maiden World skipping, holding hands with Bloodletters, and picking flowers.... god get with the times.

Damn it, I KNEW I shouldn't have switched signature! My old one was "Flowers for the Flower God! Tulips for the Tulip Throne! Mend! Soothe! Heal!"...

A chapter master is S4 and T4. Even the biggest, baddest, hardest chapter masters rarely exceed S or T5. Both is too much, in fact, for a custom character, it should be S4 and T4.

WS8 is far too high. Even WS7 needs to be hugely justified. It'd be better if he was WS6 and could get some re-rolls to show that he was a master at melee.

His weapon combined with I6 is too much; an I4 thunderhammer is too powerful.

Conferring Rage in this edition is a HUGE boost. Combine this with all the other rules and stats and wargear, and he is no less than 300pts.

Sorry, far too many special rules, special bits of wargear, and stat line boosts.

Take a basic chapter master, buy the basic wargear you want (jump packs, stormshields, etc.), then add 3 special stuff. That would be 3 special rules, or 3 special bits of wargear, or any combination thereof. This keeps the character simple for you and your opponent, and helps keep it balanced. Then, add ONE point maximum to any of the statlines. If you do all that, you could have a character for 225-275pts depending on what rules and wargear you give him.

Keep it simple. Keep it balanced and fair. Remember that you will be playing this against other players, some of which really won't want to face some ungodly beatstick you've devised.

Blacksails wrote:A chapter master is S4 and T4. Even the biggest, baddest, hardest chapter masters rarely exceed S or T5. Both is too much, in fact, for a custom character, it should be S4 and T4.

WS8 is far too high. Even WS7 needs to be hugely justified. It'd be better if he was WS6 and could get some re-rolls to show that he was a master at melee.

His weapon combined with I6 is too much; an I4 thunderhammer is too powerful.

Conferring Rage in this edition is a HUGE boost. Combine this with all the other rules and stats and wargear, and he is no less than 300pts.

Sorry, far too many special rules, special bits of wargear, and stat line boosts.

Take a basic chapter master, buy the basic wargear you want (jump packs, stormshields, etc.), then add 3 special stuff. That would be 3 special rules, or 3 special bits of wargear, or any combination thereof. This keeps the character simple for you and your opponent, and helps keep it balanced. Then, add ONE point maximum to any of the statlines. If you do all that, you could have a character for 225-275pts depending on what rules and wargear you give him.

Keep it simple. Keep it balanced and fair. Remember that you will be playing this against other players, some of which really won't want to face some ungodly beatstick you've devised.

I am using Codex: Blood Angels so taking a basic master and upgrading him is impossible as, well, there is no master in the codex list. I know I keep doing this but look at the Sanguinor, WS:8 and other things and he's just a Blood Angels apparition let alone a master of one of their successors. 4 special rules, doesn't Calgar have about the same amount? 1 piece of special wargear, doesn't Calgar technically have 2 when including the Armour of Anitloches? As for the stat-line I have had good C&C and bad C&C from both friends and you people here on Dakka, so although it may seem a tad unfair, Dante has I:6 so that's justifyable, I will lower the Toughness down to 4 but keep the Strength at 5 as that's more him than the Toughness. With an awful lot of help from liquidjoshi he has been toned down and refined more so than what he was at the start believe you and me, and he will be slightly more refined, no major changes being done. Also I'm preety sure my opponents are devising their own custom characters so he won't really be that bad.

Blacksails wrote:A chapter master is S4 and T4.

WS8 is far too high. Even WS7 needs to be hugely justified.

Conferring Rage in this edition is a HUGE boost. Combine this with all the other rules and stats and wargear, and he is no less than 300pts.

I do agree with what you're saying Blacksails, but feel I have to address some points. Firstly, WS8 is probably too much. WS7 is fine I feel, as Archons and Kharn both get it and are looking at much lower points costs. I realise other factors are taken into account.

The rage included was based on rage from 5th ED, not 6th; as such this will be amended later. We are looking at around the 300 point mark for this guy admittedly, but he does have drawbacks that are being overlooked:

No EW. He can be instagibbed by (currently) Railguns, demolisher cannons, etc. If his stats are dropped to S4 T4, then it jumps to meltaguns, lances, blasters, lascannons, Krak missiles, etc. He's a big points investment for something that could potentially be wiped off the board turn one.

Lower BS. Not a massive loss, but still a loss.

No ranged weaponry: outside of CC he's useless.

No other Chapter masters can be taken with him. This extends to allies too.

5th ED rage after taking a wound. Means he will have to be put in the right place or be left chasing invisible targets around the board.

So actually, I think he has enough drawbacks to mitigate any claims of OP. Abaddon will still slam him without too much trouble, and other title characters can at least put a few wounds on him, if not kill him outright.

liquidjoshi wrote:
So actually, I think he has enough drawbacks to mitigate any claims of OP. Abaddon will still slam him without too much trouble, and other title characters can at least put a few wounds on him, if not kill him outright.

Odds are that Abaddon will fail to get through the 2+ armour save, whereas this guy has a hammer...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:
So actually, I think he has enough drawbacks to mitigate any claims of OP. Abaddon will still slam him without too much trouble, and other title characters can at least put a few wounds on him, if not kill him outright.

Odds are that Abaddon will fail to get through the 2+ armour save, whereas this guy has a hammer...

And an AP2 weapon.

In this edition that is incredibly powerful. Every other SC who comes along toting an AP2 melee weapon drops to I1. The only difference is Tyranids and to be frank, Tyranids have plenty of problems of their own that no amount of I5/I6/I7 AP2 melee is going to solve.

As others have said...

Far too many stat boosts. Far, far too many. His WS is obscene and combined with an AP2 melee weapon that strikes at relatively high initiative....add to that the Born Ferociousness, Spirit of Rage, Bleeding Madness and Dance of Blades rules (seriously, that's only HALF of them) and you have a beat stick designed to urinate all over his equivalent counterpart melee characters (Kharn, Abaddon, Swarmlord, Ragnar Blackmane).

You may claim that a 'slightly' reduced BS would counter this out - sure. BS 0.

You may also claim that a lack of EW will counter this out - at Toughness 6? Are you kidding me? The only things that are going to pose a ID threat to his 2+ save are I1, you've made his WS obscenely high so he's harder to hit, made it so he can reduce the number of attacks incoming, given him MORE wounds than Tyranid MC characters, given him an obscene amount of attacks....and I pray to god you don't class him as a character otherwise Precise Strike will just be used to neuter any threats with lucky 6s. Oh, and he has FNP on the off chance that something DOES get through to hurt him.

No. Just No.

As others have said, you need to take this character all the way back to the drawing board or out back like Old Yeller.

Start basic, work out wargear, add maybe one or two special rules , bump one or two stats.

No cumulative stat stacking shenanigans. When this guy charges with his Rage power Over 9000 ability active he's effectively got +5 attacks on top of what he has. You may argue that Chaos characters can get to that...

Sure.

If they roll a 1 they get NOTHING. There is no counter for this.