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He consecrated the ground to make it an anathema tobDaemons. Fulgrim is now a Daemon (Prince).

what if Konrad Curze came back?

Decio wrote:what if Konrad Curze came back?

The horror, the horror!

-cgmckenzie

Deadshot wrote:He consecrated the ground to make it an anathema tobDaemons. Fulgrim is now a Daemon (Prince).

Wait what. Crowe just blessed the ground and that was it? Did he pour blood or stab the ground heroically or what?

He used a vial of the Emperor's tears. Presumably that stuff's in short supply but a Daemon Primarch is presumably worth it.

So because lucius (pre blessings) was tricked into thinking he could beat fulgrim (fulgrim explains as much to him). Who in turn is on par with kharne who is weaker than the skulltaker. Who once fought crowe in a weakened state. A fight in which crowe didn't win but "held his own". Means that Crowe can beat fulgrim?

That makes about as much sense as believing an in universe characters thoughts about how strong they are compared to anyone else. Dorn thought he could curb stomp angron without any fight at all. That doesn't make it true. Lucius being tricked into thinking he could match a primarch in a fair duel is quite possibly the worst reasoning for crowe being able to beat that same primarch I have ever heard of.

IcedAnimals wrote:So because lucius (pre blessings) was tricked into thinking he could beat fulgrim (fulgrim explains as much to him). Who in turn is on par with kharne who is weaker than the skulltaker. Who once fought crowe in a weakened state. A fight in which crowe didn't win but "held his own". Means that Crowe can beat fulgrim?

That makes about as much sense as believing an in universe characters thoughts about how strong they are compared to anyone else. Dorn thought he could curb stomp angron without any fight at all. That doesn't make it true. Lucius being tricked into thinking he could match a primarch in a fair duel is quite possibly the worst reasoning for crowe being able to beat that same primarch I have ever heard of.

Also, Fulgrim killed Ferrus Manus, and Guilleman, who in turn killed Alpharius. That would mean Crowe could beat 4 of the primarchs in single combat.

Simple. The Lion comes back, has the Unforgiven get their asses in gear, shoots Luther in the leg, heads to Terra, and becomes a High Lord as the Lord Commander of the Imperium. All our problems will be solved. Yes, I am quite serious. Since Magnus and Sanguinius are unavailable, I'd say Lion should be in charge.

Deadshot wrote:I don't really think it would come to civil war, and even if it did, it would only leave the Primarchs and the marines, and whoever sided with them. The Imperial Guard would probably side with the marines due to battlefield ties and common sense, the Inquisition would sit out untill they had conclusive results of why they were all back. If they found reason the GK would be sent in if they hadn't already aligned with Primarchs. Mars may go either way but probably with Primarchs as they have sense.

Eh, that doesn't sound very likely to me. For one, the Imperial Guard has about as many "battlefield ties" with the Marines as they have issues, and I doubt that Chapters like the Marines Malevolent and the Fleshtearers showing up claiming they're here to take the throne for their boss makes a lot of people happy. Also, the Imperial Guard basically has its own seat on the council. And then there is the fact that all soldiers in the Imperial Guard are also adherents of the Imperial Faith, which means that the regiments will not only be influenced by the Adeptus Munitorium but also the Ecclesiarchy - in the form of a lot of clerics throwing around fiery speeches about the Abhuman Heretic Traitor Marines who have all finally fallen to Chaos and want to launch a second Horus Heresy. I'd say it's clear that the Imperial Guard would remain loyal to the existing government, with the possible exception of regiments that were raised within Astartes fiefs such as Ultramar (some people mentioned that the UM send their people into the IG - no idea if that's studio material or not, but it would fit).

As for Mars, that's a bit tricky. I'm sure they would prefer the Marines just out of dislike for the Ecclesiarchy's role and the religious conflict between these two adepta, yet on the other hand they are perfectly aware that they need the Imperium for its resources as well as for protection, and a bunch of Marine worlds and Astartes Chapters won't be able to keep up with food and ore shipments nor lend any help against the millions of Guardsmen that would be thrown against any "traitors". Whilst most Forgeworlds would probably be ignored, Mars is way too close to Earth to be ignored, and since the AdMech's powerbase and central hub of knowledge is located there a strike would cripple the entire organisation. Way too dangerous. And finally, Mars has a seat on the High Lords' council as well - a further incentive to "hold on to what they have" rather than risk everything to a change in the status quo.

Let's face it, the Space Marines stand pretty much alone. Obviously. Such is the price of their independence and self-imposed reluctance to cooperate with Imperial bodies.
You just can't isolate yourself from the nation you want to protect, and then expect its people to rally to your side when you try to topple their government. To the vast majority of the Imperial population, the Space Marines are what people are told by the propaganda. Change the propaganda and you change public perception of the Astartes.

Khan reappears after kicking the ou tof the Dark Eldar. Vulkan, Russ, Corax and Dorn reappear from their party in the Eye of Terror. Johnson and Guilliman sit on the bench for this one. So let the royal beatings begin.

Lynata wrote:Eh, that doesn't sound very likely to me. For one, the Imperial Guard has about as many "battlefield ties" with the Marines as they have issues, and I doubt that Chapters like the Marines Malevolent and the Fleshtearers showing up claiming they're here to take the throne for their boss makes a lot of people happy. Also, the Imperial Guard basically has its own seat on the council. And then there is the fact that all soldiers in the Imperial Guard are also adherents of the Imperial Faith, which means that the regiments will not only be influenced by the Adeptus Munitorium but also the Ecclesiarchy - in the form of a lot of clerics throwing around fiery speeches about the Abhuman Heretic Traitor Marines who have all finally fallen to Chaos and want to launch a second Horus Heresy. I'd say it's clear that the Imperial Guard would remain loyal to the existing government, with the possible exception of regiments that were raised within Astartes fiefs such as Ultramar (some people mentioned that the UM send their people into the IG - no idea if that's studio material or not, but it would fit).

As for Mars, that's a bit tricky. I'm sure they would prefer the Marines just out of dislike for the Ecclesiarchy's role and the religious conflict between these two adepta, yet on the other hand they are perfectly aware that they need the Imperium for its resources as well as for protection, and a bunch of Marine worlds and Astartes Chapters won't be able to keep up with food and ore shipments nor lend any help against the millions of Guardsmen that would be thrown against any "traitors". Whilst most Forgeworlds would probably be ignored, Mars is way too close to Earth to be ignored, and since the AdMech's powerbase and central hub of knowledge is located there a strike would cripple the entire organisation. Way too dangerous. And finally, Mars has a seat on the High Lords' council as well - a further incentive to "hold on to what they have" rather than risk everything to a change in the status quo.

Let's face it, the Space Marines stand pretty much alone. Obviously. Such is the price of their independence and self-imposed reluctance to cooperate with Imperial bodies.
You just can't isolate yourself from the nation you want to protect, and then expect its people to rally to your side when you try to topple their government. To the vast majority of the Imperial population, the Space Marines are what people are told by the propaganda. Change the propaganda and you change public perception of the Astartes.

All true, though don't forget that Horus managed to get a large part of the Imperial Army on his side along with half of the Mechanicum because he managed to get enough of the right people on his side. Let's say Lion gets at least one of the Lord Commanders on his side - that basically gives him effective control of all Guard and Naval assets in one Segmentum. And if he gets the Fabricator-General and the Archmagi Ultima - Mars is as good as won. All he has to do is promise them something they want - the Guard Lord Commanders and Naval Grand Admirals get an equal say in the new Imperial Regency, and so does the Fabricator-General. Add to that getting all the industrial assets and archeotech Thor moved to Ophelia VII, and, well...

But its unlikely. Neither Lion or the High Lords are stupid enough to start a civil war with so many crises to go around, they'd just give Lion the position of Lord Commander of the Imperium and a seat on the Council, and problem solved. And not just the political one - with a Primarch in charge, all of the Imperium's problems should be solved in a few centuries.

Tadashi wrote:

Simple. The Lion comes back, has the Unforgiven get their asses in gear, shoots Luther in the leg, heads to Terra, and becomes a High Lord as the Lord Commander of the Imperium. All our problems will be solved. Yes, I am quite serious. Since Magnus and Sanguinius are unavailable, I'd say Lion should be in charge.

What kind of picture is this? Its so bizarre. And Guilliman>El Johnson as far as organization, getting things done, and overall manliness.

Eidolon wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Simple. The Lion comes back, has the Unforgiven get their asses in gear, shoots Luther in the leg, heads to Terra, and becomes a High Lord as the Lord Commander of the Imperium. All our problems will be solved. Yes, I am quite serious. Since Magnus and Sanguinius are unavailable, I'd say Lion should be in charge.

What kind of picture is this? Its so bizarre. And Guilliman>El Johnson as far as organization, getting things done, and overall manliness.

Overall manliness? Guilliman landed on a civilized plant and was adopted by the ruler of said planet. The Lion landed in the chaos inflicted forests of a feudal world and had to survive on his own till he was a teenager.

I would love it if Lion El'Johnson and Leman Russ both returned, between the Lion's calculating mind and the Wolf's popularity with people, they would make one heck of a ruling duo.

Tadashi wrote:All true, though don't forget that Horus managed to get a large part of the Imperial Army on his side along with half of the Mechanicum because he managed to get enough of the right people on his side.

Sure. Back then, he was an integral part of the Imperial command structure and thus had easy access and many connections. Unlike the Astartes in the Imperium "today".

Tadashi wrote:Let's say Lion gets at least one of the Lord Commanders on his side - that basically gives him effective control of all Guard and Naval assets in one Segmentum. And if he gets the Fabricator-General and the Archmagi Ultima - Mars is as good as won. All he has to do is promise them something they want - the Guard Lord Commanders and Naval Grand Admirals get an equal say in the new Imperial Regency, and so does the Fabricator-General. Add to that getting all the industrial assets and archeotech Thor moved to Ophelia VII, and, well...

Of course, any notion to have these regional commanders secede from the greater Imperium would be high treason and plunge the Imperium into another civil war. Not sure either the Primarch or these commanders would want that.

The offer is pretty suspect either way, considering it's coming from an outsider. That'd be like you walking into the Pentagon and promise to make a random general your Chief of Staff if he helps you stage a coup against the President. Sure, you've got something to offer the guy, but he'd face more opposition than his own troops could handle, and his troops could simply refuse an order out of loyalty to the state. Not to mention that General's own loyalty - you cannot buy everyone, some people really are idealists.

Also, you are underestimating the Ecclesiarchy's hold on the people. I'm sure a number of Schola-bred Commissars in Guard regiments and Navy fleets would be a bit sceptical about some Space Marine trying to coerce the force they administer into betraying the High Lords. And then there's the Confessors tending to the various units' spiritual needs. You really think some mythical figure popping up would make people forget their daily prayers? Like King Arthur riding up to the Queen's palace and expecting the guards to obey his command?

All you'd end up achieving would be yet another Primarch being seen as an arch-enemy, trying to launch his own Horus Heresy. The Imperium is much, much better prepared this time around to allow that to happen, both in terms of hierarchy as well as ideology.

Tadashi wrote:But its unlikely. Neither Lion or the High Lords are stupid enough to start a civil war with so many crises to go around, they'd just give Lion the position of Lord Commander of the Imperium and a seat on the Council, and problem solved.

What problem? To the Senate, there is no problem. Other than apparently some Space Marine trying to steal power from the High Lords.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:But its unlikely. Neither Lion or the High Lords are stupid enough to start a civil war with so many crises to go around, they'd just give Lion the position of Lord Commander of the Imperium and a seat on the Council, and problem solved.

What problem? To the Senate, there is no problem. Other than apparently some Space Marine trying to steal power from the High Lords.

Tadashi wrote:Who said Lion or the Primarchs would claim the title automatically? He'd probably exercise command over the Dark Angels at first, but its only a matter of time before the other Unforgiven gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its only a matter of time before the council gets worried - the best way to reign them in is to give them a spot on the council, where they could better control and protect their common interests.

The best way to reign something in is usually to eradicate it. If the High Lords fear the influence of a Space Marine Primarch, the last thing they'd do is validate his authority by making him Horus II.

I think a lot would depend on how said Primarch acts and how he deals with the Imperium. If he is diplomatic and appears loyal, I suppose the High Lords would simply ignore the issue and let him do his stuff. Perhaps pin a medal on his armour or something. Allow increased networking between his forces and the rest of the Imperium (such as allowing him to take command of all Imperial forces present at a particular crisis zone).
If, instead, the High Lords are convinced he has an ulterior motif, ... well, he wouldn't be the first Primarch terminated by the Officio Assassinorum.

Lynata wrote:
I think a lot would depend on how said Primarch acts and how he deals with the Imperium. If he is diplomatic and appears loyal, I suppose the High Lords would simply ignore the issue and let him do his stuff. Perhaps pin a medal on his armour or something. Allow increased networking between his forces and the rest of the Imperium (such as allowing him to take command of all Imperial forces present at a particular crisis zone).
If, instead, the High Lords are convinced he has an ulterior motif, ... well, he wouldn't be the first Primarch terminated by the Officio Assassinorum.

I'm not sure if the Imperium could afford giving a Primarch an Expeditionary Fleet, or letting him run around with a legion in all but name is a better alternative.

As for assassination, well, M'shen only did it because Kurze let her. An Execution Force (composed of assassins from all the Assassin Temples) couldn't kill even Abaddon's lieutenants - I doubt they could come close to a Primarch. Even a Culexus couldn't do it - the mightiest sorcerers in the galaxy couldn't scratch the paint on Russ' armor, really think the opposite, a Culexus, could? And wasn't there a part in the new RB that had fifty or so Chapters marching on Terra just to make the High Lords get their asses in gear. I'm sure Lion could do something along those lines.

Tadashi wrote:I'm not sure if the Imperium could afford giving a Primarch an Expeditionary Fleet, or letting him run around with a legion in all but name is a better alternative.

Better than validating any claims to absolute authority over the Imperial armed forces.

Tadashi wrote:As for assassination, well, M'shen only did it because Kurze let her.

So they can be killed by normal weapons. We're not talking about invul gods here, regardless of how BL likes to hype its protagonists to make for a more "epic" read. At least I choose to believe that the Primarchs aren't that Mary Sue that they would be unkillable.

Rogal Dorn apparently died trying to board a CSM cruiser, and whatever the Chaos Marines defending that ship's bridge had on hand, I'm fairly sure the Imperium can procure as well. Maybe the Sororitas would be able to help out; a few of their Orders have some experience purging Marine Chapters.

Worst case scenario: Exterminatus.

Tadashi wrote:And wasn't there a part in the new RB that had fifty or so Chapters marching on Terra just to make the High Lords get their asses in gear. I'm sure Lion could do something along those lines.

Fifty Chapter Masters, not fifty Chapters. That's quite a difference. And they didn't "march on" Terra, they were making a plea.
Also, the High Lords back then weren't as united as they are "now", which was the whole point of the Chapter Masters intervening.

Lynata wrote:So they can be killed by normal weapons. We're not talking about invul gods here, regardless of how BL likes to hype its protagonists to make for a more "epic" read. At least I choose to believe that the Primarchs aren't that Mary Sue that they would be unkillable.

Rogal Dorn apparently died trying to board a CSM cruiser, and whatever the Chaos Marines defending that ship's bridge had on hand, I'm fairly sure the Imperium can procure as well. Maybe the Sororitas would be able to help out; a few of their Orders have some experience purging Marine Chapters.

Worst case scenario: Exterminatus.

I suppose so. Except that would alienate so many chapters, pretty much subtracting another legion from the Imperium's side. And if it were the Unforgiven, considering they're vitriolic best buds with the Wolves, that would not be a good idea, since you'd be subtracting two legions from the Imperium's side. Might even make the Emperor intervene (i.e. sending a Custode with a message or to summon them to the throne room to get a blistering ultimatum/vision).

Deadshot wrote:Well, in The Primarchs, it is hinted that Lucius could beat him, and Kharn could match Lucius, and Skulltaker can beat Kharn. Crowe held his ground against Skulltaker. So Crowe has the possibility of possibly beating Fulgrim.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons. Spray some holy water on him, toss a psykout grenade at his feet, and it's game over, Fulgrim.

Ok, it's not quite that simple. But the GK have all the tools and abilities to take out Daemons, Primarch or not.

Tadashi wrote:
Who said Lion or the Primarchs would claim the title automatically? He'd probably exercise command over the Dark Angels at first, but its only a matter of time before the other Unforgiven gravitate to their gene-father.

The Unforgiven chapters are already in the Dark Angels chain of command. They only split up in name, not function.

Whether they were just copying the Ultramarines intentionally or not, this is what happened. And yes, the Ultramarines and their successors are basically one Legion too. All the Primogenitor chapters still think of themselves as Ultramarines and answer to Marneus Calgar.

I always have this little ditty in my head. It comes around whenever anyone ever says the Inquisition should just band together and kick the Space Wolves out of the IOM.

I should mention that the SW have a prophecy that Russ will return when their chapter is in its final days.

- Bridge of the Strike Cruiser Eternal Devotion in third stage orbit around Fenris

Lord commander Hislong -
"Begin arming the Mark 4 inceneration torpedos. We will burn off the heritics atmosphere."

Coms radar operator - Sargent Jennings.
"Sir! Incoming warp signature! 800 clicks to starboard!

"On screen!" Lord Hislong bellows.

"I've got problems tracking the incoming sir, I can't get a fix on it." - The sargent apologies.

"Why not?"

"Its only a single signal sir. And its small, much to small to be a craft of any sort."

"I don't care how small it is, just get it on the screen!"

"Working on it sir. I think I've got it. It looks like a lone space marine sir. But the armor is archaic.... and well..."

"Well what else!"

"Well..." The Sargent replied "The Imperial historical data base shows the armor to belong to Primarch Leman Russ sir."

"Bollocks! The man dissapeared 10,000 years ago."

"Yes sir, into the warp sir to chase down the forces of Tzeench. Where it looks like he just reamerged sir."

"Damn! This whole thing just got complicated. Well, what else can you tell me? How is he even moving in open space."

"Well sir." The Sargent hesitates "It appears that he is forcibly riding a very ugly and impossibly large chicken."

"... " The Lord commander paused for a moment "anything else?"

"Yes sir. He looks really pissed off sir."

Tadashi wrote:I suppose so. Except that would alienate so many chapters, pretty much subtracting another legion from the Imperium's side.

Eh, a Legion already feared to be used to put Horus II into power, if we're running with that scenario.

Better yet, who's to say they'd have to know who did it?

Tadashi wrote:And if it were the Unforgiven, considering they're vitriolic best buds with the Wolves, that would not be a good idea, since you'd be subtracting two legions from the Imperium's side.

SW shoulda been purged a couple centuries ago already, anyways. They seem to fight Imperial forces about as often as they fight the actual enemy.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I suppose so. Except that would alienate so many chapters, pretty much subtracting another legion from the Imperium's side.

Eh, a Legion already feared to be used to put Horus II into power, if we're running with that scenario.

Better yet, who's to say they'd have to know who did it?

Astartes aren't stupid - they're proud certainly, but never stupid. They know the Inquisition's excuses, and they will find out who killed their Primarch. They might not march on Terra, but they will ignore any calls for help, unless it directly involves them. You can face the next Black Crusade/Hive Fleet/Eldar Warhost/Dark Eldar raiders/Waaagh!!!/Necrons on your own.

Tadashi wrote:And if it were the Unforgiven, considering they're vitriolic best buds with the Wolves, that would not be a good idea, since you'd be subtracting two legions from the Imperium's side.

SW shoulda been purged a couple centuries ago already, anyways. They seem to fight Imperial forces about as often as they fight the actual enemy.