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Despite the assertions of numerous people in this thread, there hasn't ever really been agreement on what the term meant.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/22 09:28:00
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Irony is a word which I fully consider the meaning to have changed. I almost never hear it used for it's original intent, so as far as I am concerned anymore the word means amusing coincidence.
Also, all this talk of Mary Sue and not one mention of Gary Stu? A coined male version of Mary Sue.
The term Mary Sue is commonly used (these days anyway) regardless of the gender of the character.
The problem with defining irony to be the same thing as coincidence is that the word becomes pointless. We already have a word for coincidence. We don't need two, and if the rule of definitions becomes the usages of the plebian masses who never know what the word means and just like to throw it around, language is going to start collapsing into a mass of identical words.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 01:42:10
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
My sister, who writes in her spare time and is a major book person, throws it around all the time its annoying.
She will ask me for an idea to write about, and then she will spout off about how "Mary Sue" X is or how Cliche my plot ideas are.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Irony to me isnt exactly the same as coincidence. It's more a particularly amusing or type of of coincidence. Irony is a square, coincidence is a rectangle. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares kind of thing.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
yeah, its more like coincidence accompanied by a cruel sense of timing.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
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AduroT wrote:Irony to me isnt exactly the same as coincidence. It's more a particularly amusing or type of of coincidence. Irony is a square, coincidence is a rectangle. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares kind of thing.
This is so incorrect that we are all the poorer for having read it.
Grey Templar wrote:yeah, its more like coincidence accompanied by a cruel sense of timing.
I'm afraid this is also incorrect.
Irony is two people trying to define irony for the benefit of others without themselves actually understanding what irony means.
Irony is defined as an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected, or the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning
You wouldn't expect someone with no understanding of a term to try and explain that term to others. Hence, irony.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 05:17:41
LordofHats wrote:The term Mary Sue is commonly used (these days anyway) regardless of the gender of the character.
And thus it should be.
Some people are deluded enough to think that only female fanfiction characters can qualify, but that's silly at best. and frankly they should be ashamed of themselves for making such a nonsensical assertion to begin with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 09:09:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
LordofHats wrote:The term Mary Sue is commonly used (these days anyway) regardless of the gender of the character.
The problem with defining irony to be the same thing as coincidence is that the word becomes pointless. We already have a word for coincidence. We don't need two, and if the rule of definitions becomes the usages of the plebian masses who never know what the word means and just like to throw it around, language is going to start collapsing into a mass of identical words.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
LordofHats wrote:The term Mary Sue is commonly used (these days anyway) regardless of the gender of the character.
And thus it should be.
Some people are deluded enough to think that only female fanfiction characters can qualify, but that's silly at best. and frankly they should be ashamed of themselves for making such a nonsensical assertion to begin with.
Well there's a reason. The original 'Mary Sue' character was directed at a trend of female fan fiction characters. The problem is that oddly the term was not originally taken as bad writing (and thus lacked a negative connotation), but became such over time. Gary Sue/Stew if one wants to use those distinctions is perfectly valid if one wants, but I normally just see people use Mary Sue regardless because its the more recognized term.
LordofHats wrote:Well there's a reason. The original 'Mary Sue' character was directed at a trend of female fan fiction characters.
And the original "Mary Sue" was not an actual "Mary Sue" as you and most others are thinking of it, so this is an irrelevant and pointless distinction.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
LordofHats wrote:Well there's a reason. The original 'Mary Sue' character was directed at a trend of female fan fiction characters.
And the original "Mary Sue" was not an actual "Mary Sue" as you and most others are thinking of it, so this is an irrelevant and pointless distinction.
This is a good example of irony.
Anyway, "Mary Sue" is another one of those things that is used as shorthand for "I am smarter and more discerning in my choice of entertainment than the rest of you sheeple." Here's hoping that it will soon pass, and the haters will move on to their next abomination.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 16:37:42
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
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Haters gon' hate.
LordofHats wrote:Well there's a reason. The original 'Mary Sue' character was directed at a trend of female fan fiction characters.
And the original "Mary Sue" was not an actual "Mary Sue" as you and most others are thinking of it, so this is an irrelevant and pointless distinction.
This is a good example of irony.
Anyway, "Mary Sue" is another one of those things that is used as shorthand for "I am smarter and more discerning in my choice of entertainment than the rest of you sheeple." Here's hoping that it will soon pass, and the haters will move on to their next abomination.
I agree 100%. People use it far to frequently to bash anything they don't like.
Descriptors are used all the time, often for a good reason, often out of a simple overreaction. In this, the term "Mary Sue" is no different than words such as "overhyped", "OP", "troll" or even just "bland" and "boring". If people think that "Mary Sue" gets used too often, then the same can be said about any other word used to apply criticism or praise. Obviously, whether the application is justified will often depend on how you think about the item in question.
This specific term basically has evolved to become a "package" containing a number of negative attributes that the user believes apply to whatever is the object of his or her scorn. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can debate whether X is a Mary Sue or not, but an attempt to "ban" the word altogether is about as ridiculous as banning the other examples mentioned above.
Breotan wrote:Why are you guys arguing about the definition of a Mary Sue? There's an entire wiki article on the subject. Go look it up.
Because one guy gave the word in proper meaning, and then called some other guy's who didn't do that. Those people are now trying to keep their pride intact while trying as hard as they can to avoid learning anything about what a word actually means.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kris Knives wrote:You are aware the language evolves over time right and that it is evolving faster then ever before in human history thanks to mass communication?
And you ought to be aware much of that evolution results in words losing their original, specific and useful meaning, and instead just becoming a less exacting word for a general concept which already has dozens of words to describe it. We can use 'overpowered', 'one dimensional' or 'implausible', or even all three to describe a character . Whereas the particular phenomenom of writing fan material to include an idealised version of the author who can show the original characters how totally awesome he is has just the one term to describe it.
When words enter common usage and lose their original meaning, then our ability to describe things has been reduced, and it is only sensible to try and prevent that happening. Language matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azazel the cat wrote:
AduroT wrote:Irony to me isnt exactly the same as coincidence. It's more a particularly amusing or type of of coincidence. Irony is a square, coincidence is a rectangle. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares kind of thing.
This is so incorrect that we are all the poorer for having read it.
Grey Templar wrote:yeah, its more like coincidence accompanied by a cruel sense of timing.
I'm afraid this is also incorrect.
Irony is two people trying to define irony for the benefit of others without themselves actually understanding what irony means.
Irony is defined as an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected, or the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning
You wouldn't expect someone with no understanding of a term to try and explain that term to others. Hence, irony.
Everyone should know irony is ten thousand spoons when all you need is knife.
Or a deathrow pardon ten minutes too late.
Or winning the lottery, and dying the next day.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/24 06:36:16
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
The best definition of mary sue is will wheaton as he is written on big bang theory.
Will wheaton can and does do everything the other characters can't (parties, girls, get into movies) and let's face it, who doesn't want to be will wheaton.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
sebster wrote:And you ought to be aware much of that evolution results in words losing their original, specific and useful meaning, and instead just becoming a less exacting word for a general concept which already has dozens of words to describe it. We can use 'overpowered', 'one dimensional' or 'implausible', or even all three to describe a character . Whereas the particular phenomenom of writing fan material to include an idealised version of the author who can show the original characters how totally awesome he is has just the one term to describe it.
What's the reason behind that development, though? Isn't it true that the original meaning had a very, very limited range of application? I for one am not surprised it has changed to allow wider usage, especially since it still makes sense. Why use half a dozen other words if your low opinion of some character can be neatly wrapped up in a simply "Mary Sue"? It's a manner of efficiency, plus I think that the term "Mary Sue" carries a more negative connotation than the sum of its parts, thus being even better suited for "extreme" criticism.
sebster wrote:When words enter common usage and lose their original meaning, then our ability to describe things has been reduced, and it is only sensible to try and prevent that happening. Language matters.
Not sure I can agree to that. If we were to follow this, we'd prolly still be stuck communicating with a series of growls.
Language evolves - together with its culture. It's just a fact of civilization. In just about every generation there are people trying to stem further development, even though every single word they use already is a corrupted version of something else. *shrugs* Why stop now?
There's a difference between general language and technical terms.
What meaning does Deus Ex Machina really carry once expanded beyond the specifics it is originally intended to refer to?
While Mary Sue in its very first form is indeed a somewhat limited identifier, there becomes a point where its overly broad usage makes it useless as a term.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/24 14:05:47
Lynata wrote:
Language evolves - together with its culture. It's just a fact of civilization.
a good case in point is the (d)evolution on the spelling of the word civilisation, to now being spelt civilization. I'll still spell it civilisation myself, but i guarantee most people spell it cililization now and moreso in the future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/24 14:05:30
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
LordofHats wrote:There's a difference between general language and technical terms.
What meaning does Deus Ex Machina really carry once expanded beyond the specifics it is originally intended to refer to?
While Mary Sue in its very first form is indeed a somewhat limited identifier, there becomes a point where its overly broad usage makes it useless as a term.
You've got a point, but I would at least say it still depends on the case. Perhaps there will come a day when Deus Ex Machine will come to mean something else, and people will be fine with it because it is far more relevant at their day and age than the current meaning? Especially once we get closer to developing AIs.
Bullockist wrote:a good case in point is the (d)evolution on the spelling of the word civilisation, to now being spelt civilization. I'll still spell it civilisation myself, but i guarantee most people spell it cililization now and moreso in the future.
I *try* to stick to British English on this forum because it's 40k, and 40k will forever be a British thing to me ... but I slip up time and time again. US variants of these words are just so much more common these days, plus I always use US English in my job. Jumping back and forth really messes with my consistency, it seems!
And then there's that computer game ... just one more turn before bed ...
>Raptors Lead the Way <