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Kharrak wrote:Who, by the way, actually assaulted a mob of 30 boyz in 5th, anyway?

Blood Angels.

Kharrak wrote:

Stoffer wrote:I completely disagree with this statement. Low-model count assault armies are in a worse place, horde armies got a gigantic buff. If you put 180 boys on the table and you'll completely control what goes on in the game. Overwatch benefits Orks a great deal since it's basically an extra round of shooting at almost the same BS, you don't take fearless wounds which is one of the biggest changes across the board. Green tide armies are going to be super strong in 6th.

I disagree with this. With a lower cover save, they are easier to kill, and due to wound allocation, much easier to hold at bay. Who, by the way, actually assaulted a mob of 30 boyz in 5th, anyway?

Your normal anti-infantry is going to be much more powerful. Blasts and flamers, again when combined with lower cover save and removing casualties from the front, should keep them out of assault and keep them fighting to stay close to objectives. Hell, even smaller calibre fire will make them lose ground inch by inch. Additionally, wound allocation will often put the Nob under stress due to the front casualty line drawing closer, encouraging them to be placed further back. The further back they are placed, the harder it will be for them to make it into combat.

That said, Slugga Boyz are still good stuff. Their only issue is the way in which transports changed - the trukk can only drive 6" before they disembark. It takes some remixing of how to use them. Waaagh makes that 12" assault much more reliable, since you can roll both OR one of the two assault dice.

If you're concerned with losing models out of your 180 orks because you have a lower coversave, I'm not entirely sure you're getting the point of putting that many models on the board. No doubt you'll be taking more wounds, but if the entirety of your list is around 200 models, having a 16% or so higher casualty rate off a shooting that only hits on 6s isn't the end of the world.

Also, in regards to who assaulted orks in 5th: Any smaller assault army run by someone with half a clue. My usual setup with ASM meant that getting FC/extra attack and denying orks the 30 extra attacks they'd get from assaulting would be a fairly important component to winning CC. Apart from that, I needed to cause as many fearless wounds off the bat, something that I can't do anymore and I suspect will mean that my undefeated streak against orks is about to take a permanent pounding.

Transports aren't necessarily in a worse spot. Sure, you can only go 6, but the first turn you'll go further and that initial push is what you're looking for.

labmouse42 wrote:A green tide army is not an offensive army.

And this is the core of it, really. Actually, this is what 6th ed is about.

5th ed was an edition where throngs of goobers and piles of cheap transport mech armies had the most offensive power, and small, elite units were there to guard key places and units. 6th ed looks to be an edition where throngs of goobers and cheap mech are going to be the defensive armies and small, elite forces are going to be the offensive ones.

Ludovic wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Who, by the way, actually assaulted a mob of 30 boyz in 5th, anyway?

Blood Angels.

It was unlikely they would still be 30 but it was usually worth assaulting them to reduce their attacks and getting rid of furious charge. The secret again was assaulting in numbers, like 2 tactical squads charging in with pistol shots and the first cc attacks would make fairly light work of them. No one expected hat you would charge orks.

Again now cover is reduced and models removed from the front, you may as well try to rapid fire orks out of their assault range. With premeasuring you should end up just over 11'' away and rapid fire enough to most probably deny an assault.

labmouse42 wrote:
3) Time of play -- It takes a long time to deploy and move 180+ models. Its hard to finish a game 2:15 when you have that -- which can cause problems at tourneys.

QFT

carrying them to and from is a hassle too.

labmouse42 wrote:
3) Time of play -- It takes a long time to deploy and move 180+ models. Its hard to finish a game 2:15 when you have that -- which can cause problems at tourneys.

I have to warn you many will think this is unsavory but I am friends with several of the local shop owners, and when Ard'Boyz was around one of them hosted the first round events in our area. It happens we have a real WAAC/TFG player around here who played an old DE army (before their new dex) with loads of lances and agonizers and he would do things like pivot sideways and argue how the agonizer wounded, lots of judge calls and terrible sportsmanship scores (those don't mater in Ard). He would also pay for his friends entries and they would concede any rounds they were pair up with him to advance him with full points. Anyhow the shop owner called me and said he had signed up and asked me to play spoiler. I brought my green tide army and the shop owner paired us first round. By the time I had deployed 25 minutes had elapsed and I carefully spaced all my boyz to maximum coherency to avoid templates working well and advanced them measuring for each individual model. Never once did I argue rules with him, every single questionable thing he tried to do I allowed. Such as his ravager being out of range of my big shoota (the closest model), and then it magically being in rage on his turn without him moving it. I allowed it all. At the end of turn 2 time expired and I won 3 objectives to 2 because I was able to space my boyz in such away he could not get close enough to deny the center objective. He seemed annoyed asked the judge for extra time, said he thought I was stalling but the judges said if he thought that was the case he should have brought it to their attention sooner. Long story short he left immediately after the first round.

The next round I was paired against and ig player and within 5 minutes we had agreed on some special ways of movement to speed up the horde and when it was said and done we were able to complete all 6 turns within the 2:15.

My advice if you want to play green tide competitively is learn how to short cut move. There are several things you can do.

1. Move only border models then fill in the gaps so if you have a squad 4 models deep and 8 wide move rows 1 and 4 then fill in between them with the remainder of the models.

2. Make movement sticks. You bases are 1 inch diameter, make some 5 and 11 inch sticks. Lay the stick on the table touching the base of the model to move, place the model at the other end, that is a 6 or 12 inch move.

3. Let your opponent help you, in the above tournament all 5 of my later round players would help me move once we established the boundary from speed play suggestion 1 they would fill in the models and even try to space them out as i had them before.

4. Run in your movement phase, combine the move and run, this one your opponent and you may have to use some imagination realizing that some models may not be where they are during the shooting and remaining movement phase, but most intelligent opponents understand exactly what is happening.

Don't be afraid to play horde in competitive you can get it done, but you will probably break a sweat.

Just because it's physically possible doesn't mean it's a good idea.

While you're spending all of your time frantically moving and rolling dice, your opponent is spending only a little time moving and rolling dice and then spending most of his time thinking about what to do while you are constantly scrambling.

Not only do you have this loss over any game, but this becomes a big loss over the course of a tournament. The last one I was in I was the only person in the room who was literally breaking a sweat with all the physical and mental effort required to play my horde army. By the time you come to your last game, you're going to be so exhausted and frazzled, that there's no way you're going to be able to play your best.

Meanwhile, you'll be facing against an opponent who has likely been keeping relatively fresh while you've been keeping frantic.

That's a bigger disadvantage than any of the other several disadvantages to playing a horde army in a tournament, which combine together to cause hordes to never place well at tournaments. They can do fine otherwise, but not in this setting.

Ailaros wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:A green tide army is not an offensive army.

And this is the core of it, really.

I think that I should add to this statement.

When I saw a green tide army is not an offensive army, that does not mean that it has no offense. A green tide army is like playing a tank in WoW. You have some OK offensive capabilities, but your strength lies in your durability.

A green tide army can slowly blob over the objectives. Your going to be covering ground from killed models, possibly shooting rokkits, and then possibly worrying about difficult terrain. The fact is your army is not going to get into the enemy deployment easily, so if there are 3 objectives there you going to have a hard time getting them. You can expect to get to mid-field before the game is over.

Your ork army will be resilient to shooting by sheer number of bodies -- think of it as ablative armor. Having 120 ork shoota boys is very hard to dislodge. Add some lootas, kannons, warbosses, Nob Bikers, or MANZ and suddenly you have something thats a real hassle to deal with. You have a strong counter-assault, decent long range shooting, and then a horde of fearless boys.

Facing a shooty army? Stick a warboss in front of the lootas and have him eat incoming shots. Put em all behind an aegis line to get that 4+ cover. Facing an assault army? Use a squad of Nob Bikes or MANZ to sort them out when they get close? Either way, those units will absorb all the shooting for a few turns -- and that's OK. When its done, you will still have your troops at nearly full strength and in a position to nab objectives. If your facing KP missions, you only need to win a few KPs to get ahead, as your only offering 2-4 total for the enemy to grab easily.

So the name of the game with a green tide army is to get shot. Your job is to pull models off the table, and laugh when they go. Phrases like "crunch all you like, we'll make more" come to mind. Your not looking to table your opponent, your looking to win via objectives/KPs/secondary objectives.

I'm wondering which Heavy Support would fit the army better though?

Between Grot with Kannons or Killer Kans.

I feel that if you add Nob bikers, Killer Kans would help them absorbing some high Strength fire.

Artillery sounds nice, but they don't move with the army, also Kannon and Zapp range are only 36"

Nob bikers will only absorb lowish strength fire power or st10, as they are t5 with 4+ cover save. St10 will not be used against kans, lots of low strength shorts may be used against the kanz.

In some ways I think kannons, lootas and ADLwith quad gun are the best support but this is just a gunline which I think everyone feels is pretty good right now.
Nob bikers will be good to give the gunline something to go out and grab objectives whilst generally causing a nuisance.

My impression is that Green Tide is still effective, but you need to be cognizant of the things that have changed under this edition. Most notably is the fact that the kan wall is dead and killa kanz are largely useless. With only two hull points and their low armor it's unlikely that they'll survive long enough to be of use. Worse yet the 4+ cover save they gave to the troops behind them. I would argue that a single KFF Mek is going to be a far better investment than a kan wall.

The new missions are a concern. I would be VERY worried about how footsloggers will fare in hammer & anvil. 1/3 of your games will have the board stretched an additional two feet. That translates to at least one more turn of walking and running before you can reach your opponent, or the objectives they have placed as far away from you as possible. Relic objectives are another concern. A fast opponent can reach the relic before you and start to pull it away while you run after them.

However it's not all bad. As others have stated overwatch and snap shots are very good for shoota boyz. 60 shots at BS 1 is 10 hits on average. Also the loss of fearless wounds makes orks very good at wars of attrition in assault. Lootas make for excellent anti-air platforms, and you can further this effect by purchasing dakkajets. You can also look at things like allies, which will be very helpful with respect to covering gaps in your force. Like anti-tank.