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coredump wrote:Except keep reading on p.80. It says that passengers from all destroyed vehicles, wrecked *and* exploded, are considered "now disembarked"

That would mean you cant assault from either destroyed situation. Which goes back to making much more sense.

And lends more credence to the summary pages further in the book, which everyone seems so keen on arguing about as well.

Whoa... so basically... if you're wrecked or explodey'ed out of your assault vehicle during your opponent's turn, your units may NOT assault in your following turn.

Ouch.

That's a nerf hammer there...

At least, there's some consistency there (no more "assault if explodey" vs "no assault if wrecked" madness)

Ah, excellent point coredump. I must have missed that despite reading the rule way to many times these last few days. Seems like it all lines up just fine. Thanks.

whembly wrote:Whoa... so basically... if you're wrecked or explodey'ed out of your assault vehicle during your opponent's turn, your units may NOT assault in your following turn.

Ouch.

That's a nerf hammer there...

At least, there's some consistency there (no more "assault if explodey" vs "no assault if wrecked" madness)

Well under strick RAW, I can assault you on your turn if you blow up my landraider. Because I can assault the turn they disembark. And that rule is more specific than the rule telling me when to assault.

Of course I do not think it applies this way, but I do feel it was meant to let you assault next turn if it is wrecked on your turn.

That is incorrect jbunny, under strict RAW. The assault vehicle rule states that you may assault on the turn in which you disembark. Turn refers to player turn unless otherwise specific. So, if your landraider is wrecked or destroyed, then you cannot assault during your turn, since the assault vehicle rule would only allow you to assault during the turn in which you disembarked (your opponent's turn, and you clearly cannot assault then).

There's another thread on this,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459960.page

a couple of quick things

1. seems to be a glitch where assault vehicle applies to "this turn" so even if its an assault vehicle you can't assault on your turn if your opponent wrecks a transport on their turn.
RAI = nonsense, RAW = seems right

2. You don't disembark after exploding, otherwise it would say disembark. it just says "place models.. "

3. if you explode and wreck, i think the explode takes precedence. Not sure if that's RAW though. Thoughts?

Also: trukks are death traps in 6e. Ramshackle means even when they glance you to death, the darn thing explodes 2/3 of the time. Then you kill half the models b/c there's no more -1 str for open topped.

trukks are terrible in 6e.

jcress410 wrote:There's another thread on this,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459960.page

a couple of quick things

1. seems to be a glitch where assault vehicle applies to "this turn" so even if its an assault vehicle you can't assault on your turn if your opponent wrecks a transport on their turn.
RAI = nonsense, RAW = seems right

2. You don't disembark after exploding, otherwise it would say disembark. it just says "place models.. "

3. if you explode and wreck, i think the explode takes precedence. Not sure if that's RAW though. Thoughts?

Also: trukks are death traps in 6e. Ramshackle means even when they glance you to death, the darn thing explodes 2/3 of the time. Then you kill half the models b/c there's no more -1 str for open topped.

trukks are terrible in 6e.

Top of this page is a quote from someone else in this thread stating that on pg. 80 you "disembark" from vehicle wrecked and vehicle destroyed. Just because the models are placed where the vehicle was doesn't automatically mean they didn't "disembark". Backed up even more by the summary at the back of the book stating models "disembark and are limited to a 3 inch move" from a destroyed vehicle.

Kevin949 wrote:

jcress410 wrote:There's another thread on this,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459960.page

a couple of quick things

1. seems to be a glitch where assault vehicle applies to "this turn" so even if its an assault vehicle you can't assault on your turn if your opponent wrecks a transport on their turn.
RAI = nonsense, RAW = seems right

2. You don't disembark after exploding, otherwise it would say disembark. it just says "place models.. "

3. if you explode and wreck, i think the explode takes precedence. Not sure if that's RAW though. Thoughts?

Also: trukks are death traps in 6e. Ramshackle means even when they glance you to death, the darn thing explodes 2/3 of the time. Then you kill half the models b/c there's no more -1 str for open topped.

trukks are terrible in 6e.

Top of this page is a quote from someone else in this thread stating that on pg. 80 you "disembark" from vehicle wrecked and vehicle destroyed. Just because the models are placed where the vehicle was doesn't automatically mean they didn't "disembark". Backed up even more by the summary at the back of the book stating models "disembark and are limited to a 3 inch move" from a destroyed vehicle.

Great, thanks for the quick correction.

No strick RAW says I may assault the turn I disembark. So I can assault in my opponents turn if that is the turn I disembark.

Again I am NOT in favor of this interputation. But it does show how silly RAW can get.

Untrue, since you lack the ability to declare a charge if it is nor your assault phase. The assault vehicle rules are clearly written in reference to disembarking from a vehicle, and no interpretation is required to have a working understanding of what the rule allows and does not allow. Suggesting that you can assault in your opponent's turn is a strawman designed to show how 'silly' the rules are while that are really not that bad.

The wording here also seems to apply to Necrons deepstriking during an opponents turn. The difference being that Necrons would shoot (not assault) during their opponents turn.
Is everyone sure that there isn't a sentences that says, "You may not shoot or assault during your opponent's turn" somewhere in the book?

GW.... get that FAQ out ASAP.

Dukal wrote:Untrue, since you lack the ability to declare a charge if it is nor your assault phase. The assault vehicle rules are clearly written in reference to disembarking from a vehicle, and no interpretation is required to have a working understanding of what the rule allows and does not allow. Suggesting that you can assault in your opponent's turn is a strawman designed to show how 'silly' the rules are while that are really not that bad.

agree.

jbunny wrote:No strick RAW says I may assault the turn I disembark. So I can assault in my opponents turn if that is the turn I disembark.

Again I am NOT in favor of this interputation. But it does show how silly RAW can get.

I disagree with that... the key word is "turn" and unless otherwise specified always refers to "player's turn". So no, you can't initiate an assault during your opponent's turn.

jcress410 wrote:Also: trukks are death traps in 6e. Ramshackle means even when they glance you to death, the darn thing explodes 2/3 of the time. Then you kill half the models b/c there's no more -1 str for open topped.

trukks are terrible in 6e.

Disagree here too... here's 3 reasons:
1) Ramshackle rule specifically states that kaboom! is STR3. So no change from 5th to 6th.
2) Trukks have 3 hull points now... you can't wreck trukks now from glances, unless you remove the last HP (which always seemed to happen to me in 5th).
3) Here's something I don't see anyone bringing up with regards to trukks (or any fast vehicles):
-Trukks are fast... right? Boom, they move 12" in movement phase (13" w/ rpj)
-Here's the key: Fast Vehicle can elect to move "flat-out" in shooting phase for an additional 12" (why would you want to shoot with trukks??).
-If you still in trukk by turn 2, you should definately be in range to krump!

Again.. back to OP... I'm reading this as you can't assault out of a wrecked/explodey'ed trukk in your next turn.

I'm wondering if this is GW's evil plans to change the meta a bit (where vehicles were king in 5th).

Of course they can assault when their turn comes around.

No one has referneced the the beginning of the disembark rule pg. 79 Disembarking:

"A unit that begins it's Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

Since the unit does not begin it's movement phase embarked in a vehicle, the fact that it was once embarked in a vehicle at some point in the past has no bearing.

So unless the unit is pinned (which carries over) it can move, shoot and assault as normal.

Idolator wrote:Of course they can assault when their turn comes around.

No one has referneced the the beginning of the disembark rule pg. 79 Disembarking:

"A unit that begins it's Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

Since the unit does not begin it's movement phase embarked in a vehicle, the fact that it was once embarked in a vehicle at some point in the past has no bearing.

So unless the unit is pinned (which carries over) it can move, shoot and assault as normal.

No one is referencing that because this part has nothing to do with assaulting. This rule tells us when exactly the unit can disembark. "Disembarkation Restrictions" is a different paragraph and has nothing to do with this sentence.

And the fact that it was once embarked in a vehicle at some point in the past has no bearing. That is true. Being in the vehicle at some point doesn't restrict assaulting. Disembarking does. When assault phase comes it's "this unit next assault phase" from when the disembarking happened so it can't declare a charge.

Personally I think it is a poorly wording group of words, and Rules Lawyering at its best(Worst)

That's all well and good, but unless you can come up with a convincing way to argue for your point, you should probably be ready for your opponent to interpret it as written, poor writing thought it may be. It's funny how the accusations of rules lawyering always fly when other people don't agree with your interpretation.

Macok wrote:

Idolator wrote:Of course they can assault when their turn comes around.

No one has referneced the the beginning of the disembark rule pg. 79 Disembarking:

"A unit that begins it's Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

Since the unit does not begin it's movement phase embarked in a vehicle, the fact that it was once embarked in a vehicle at some point in the past has no bearing.

So unless the unit is pinned (which carries over) it can move, shoot and assault as normal.

No one is referencing that because this part has nothing to do with assaulting. This rule tells us when exactly the unit can disembark. "Disembarkation Restrictions" is a different paragraph and has nothing to do with this sentence.

And the fact that it was once embarked in a vehicle at some point in the past has no bearing. That is true. Being in the vehicle at some point doesn't restrict assaulting. Disembarking does. When assault phase comes it's "this unit next assault phase" from when the disembarking happened so it can't declare a charge.

So, even if my unit is not disembarking in my turn, it still counts as having disembarked my turn. That would also mean that they could not move as normal and would have to end their move beyond 6" of the disembarkation point. Even though they disembarked in a previous turn and are no longer in a vehicle.

The Rules as intended are for disembarkation in your own movement phase. That's why the disembark for wrecked vehicles has a different move and is referenced in a different place.

It may also be a typo. It could easily have been meant to read "in THE subsequet Assault phase" instead of "THEIR subsequent assault phase".

If someone pulled that on me in a Tournament I would give them a zero for sportsmanship.

You would give them a zero in sportsmanship for reading the rule as written and asking that you abide by it? That seems incredibly justified.

Page 80 covers the 'disembarkation restrictions' that you are referring to. The restrictions regarding assaulting only apply because they state 'in the subsequent assault phase.' There are no such restrictions regarding movement in the subsequent movement phase, and so movement would not be restricted in the same way.

Also, it may be a typo is pure speculation, and not really helpful during a rules debate. GW used the word 'their' - it is best to assume they meant to until proven otherwise. They actually used the word 'their twice', referring to both shooting and assaulting, so it seems unlikely that it would be a typo.

Idolator wrote:If someone pulled that on me in a Tournament I would give them a zero for sportsmanship.

That makes as much sense as giving someone a 0 if they shoot bolters at your units.

Idolator wrote:So, even if my unit is not disembarking in my turn, it still counts as having disembarked my turn. That would also mean that they could not move as normal and would have to end their move beyond 6" of the disembarkation point. Even though they disembarked in a previous turn and are no longer in a vehicle.

The Rules as intended are for disembarkation in your own movement phase. That's why the disembark for wrecked vehicles has a different move and is referenced in a different place.

It may also be a typo. It could easily have been meant to read "in THE subsequet Assault phase" instead of "THEIR subsequent assault phase".

If someone pulled that on me in a Tournament I would give them a zero for sportsmanship.

The underlined part is where I disagree the most. How do you know that this is intended this way? Who told you that? What is the logic behind this obvious RAI?

And if somebody would pull on me "THE subsequet Assault phase" instead of "THEIR subsequent assault phase" should I give them 0 in sportsmanship because the RAI (as interpreted by me, and me only) is not being considered. Or I could just talk with him and if no consensus is reached, call a judge.

Because tell me this. If I disembark my Fire Dragons next to the rhino filled with some assault unit and do nothing, they can't charge me. I'm safe.
But if I shoot 10 melta shots onto their transport, melt it into oblivion, cause a huge explosion, kill some of them, force them to make a pinning test and maybe even another leadership test because they lost 25%, leave them in a crater then they should be able to assault me? Is this obvious intention? Not for me.
You can try to explain why you think this given scenario is so obviously intended by the person who wrote the rules I should be severely punished just by thinking otherwise.
I'm sorry, but I would not like to play with a person that gives me 0 points for something like this.
/Rant over. Don't make me a WAAC (understood in a worst possible way), just because I follow the rules and think that being in a centre of an explosion should not help units charge.


Now back to the actual rules.
No. Your unit doesn't count as disembarked in your unit. This doesn't change the fact that it cannot initiate a charge.
The rules don't say "you can't charge if you disembarked this turn". They say that if you disembarked you can't charge in your next assault phase. There is a difference.
And the unit can act freely in your movement phase thanks to the rule you quoted earlier. They didn't start their movement phase embarked so movement phase restrictions don't work.

Dukal wrote:That is incorrect jbunny, under strict RAW. The assault vehicle rule states that you may assault on the turn in which you disembark. Turn refers to player turn unless otherwise specific. So, if your landraider is wrecked or destroyed, then you cannot assault during your turn, since the assault vehicle rule would only allow you to assault during the turn in which you disembarked (your opponent's turn, and you clearly cannot assault then).

Dukal wrote:Untrue, since you lack the ability to declare a charge if it is nor your assault phase. The assault vehicle rules are clearly written in reference to disembarking from a vehicle, and no interpretation is required to have a working understanding of what the rule allows and does not allow. Suggesting that you can assault in your opponent's turn is a strawman designed to show how 'silly' the rules are while that are really not that bad.

And why can't you assault in your opponents turn when you have a specific rule telling you that you in fact can assault during your opponent's turn?

Well, GW will clear this up in the Errata, probably when the next codex comes out.

When they do, they will ensure that, YES,INDEED! You can assault in your assault phase if your vehicle was destroyed in your opponents shooting phase.

If they don't I will gladly admit that I misinterpreted the rules. Here, where everyone can see it.

My bet is that no one will do the same if they clarify that you can assault.

This would never come up for me anyway, as the only transport that I run in any army is drop pods for my marines. I would always allow my opponent to assault if he wasn't in a vehicle or pinned in his turn.

I'm not entirely convinced this was an accident. The thing with assault vehicles is probably a glitch, but, I'm not sure why you're so convinced 6e transports have to be like 5e transports.

I am completely convinced this is Written as Intended.

As mentioned, it would be stupid to be better off to have your transport destroyed, then if it stays whole.
It would be stupid for my models to be safer if I leave your transport alone, rather than blow it up.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Dukal wrote:That is incorrect jbunny, under strict RAW. The assault vehicle rule states that you may assault on the turn in which you disembark. Turn refers to player turn unless otherwise specific. So, if your landraider is wrecked or destroyed, then you cannot assault during your turn, since the assault vehicle rule would only allow you to assault during the turn in which you disembarked (your opponent's turn, and you clearly cannot assault then).

Dukal wrote:Untrue, since you lack the ability to declare a charge if it is nor your assault phase. The assault vehicle rules are clearly written in reference to disembarking from a vehicle, and no interpretation is required to have a working understanding of what the rule allows and does not allow. Suggesting that you can assault in your opponent's turn is a strawman designed to show how 'silly' the rules are while that are really not that bad.

And why can't you assault in your opponents turn when you have a specific rule telling you that you in fact can assault during your opponent's turn?

Even if you have been given permission to assault during the other player's turn, being given permission to assault is useless without being told when you can declare the assault.

Turn to the Assault Phase rules on page 20 and just try to explain when during that turn you would declare your assault.

It's like the old argument about trying to perform Warp Spider jumps during the opponent's assault phase. It's completely silly to argue that you can do something when you can't explain when during the phase you're actually permitted to do it.

Page 9. Game Turns & Player Turns : 'turn' always means player turn unless otherwise specified.

Same page. Exceptions : you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence..

Page 33. Assault Vehicle : "Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed.

can charge on the turn they do so
even on a turn that...

Seems pretty clear to me.

However, back to page 9, exceptions. The player whose turn it is gets to choose the order of the actions, so can charge you before you charge him.

Just to blow everyone's minds really quick, you do all understand that Land Raiders and Trukks aren't the only assault vehicles, right? Has anyone paused to think that the subtext could be there specifically for fliers that are shot down during their player's movement phase by interceptor weapons? The Stormraven might be the only Assault Vehicle flier at the moment, but we're do for a whole slew of them soon.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Just to blow everyone's minds really quick, you do all understand that Land Raiders and Trukks aren't the only assault vehicles, right? Has anyone paused to think that the subtext could be there specifically for fliers that are shot down during their player's movement phase by interceptor weapons? The Stormraven might be the only Assault Vehicle flier at the moment, but we're do for a whole slew of them soon.

True that!

The str 10 hits with no armor save goes quite a ways to mitigate that though.

Idolator wrote:True that!

The str 10 hits with no armor save goes quite a ways to mitigate that though.

You'd think that, but Terminators laugh in the face of that. We aslo don't know what special rules will appear for new assault vehicles and assault fliers. Time will tell. Just wondering if the wording in that subtext is actually a glitch.

Here's another brain bender. What armor facing does a Dreadnought that's in a Stormraven take the S10 AP1 hit on? Most places in the rulebook say rear for most special rules on vehicles, but it's not specified here.