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Another player at my FLGS posed this question to us on our local forum. It's made quite a stir. Here's what he had to say:

Ok rules question. Hopefully I am not late to the party on this one...This concerns shooting and wrecking your opponents vehicle and making them get a unit out. Wreck says the unit disembarks as normal. When a unit disembarks from a non assault vehicle they can't charge in their next assault phase. The reason I ask because dropping Necron Warriors right next to a rhino to wreck is really nice now that they can't be assaulted by the disembarked unit right away...is this true?

What he is saying is that he can destroy an enemy transport in HIS shooting phase, and the occupants cannot assault back in THEIR assault phase in the following turn. It's based on the notion that units disembark as normal, which the rest of us take to mean the manner they exit, and that they're subject to disembarkation restrictions in their following turn. It all hinges around the word 'subsequent' in the text. What do you guys think? It seems too broken to me, as it would essentially cripple every transport in the game (esp. Trukks/Raiders). We've been arguing it up and down and want some fresh eyes on this one.

He's absolutely correct.

that is correct. A unit that is forced to disembark follows all the rules for disembarking. Including not being able to assault in "their" subsequent assault phase. It doesn't matter if that assault phase is 1 or 4 phases away. Until the models that disembarked have had an assault phase pass they are unable to assault.

Yup your friend has it. Transports are no longer mobile bunkers and rightfully so, for only 35 points!

Assault vehicles still allow its occupants to charge after its destruction best I can tell so Trukk/Raiders are still fine.

Yikes. Thanks for the input guys.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:it would essentially cripple every transport in the game.

GOOD! Being in a transport that gets wrecked should be detrimental!

frankthedm wrote:GOOD! Being in a transport that gets wrecked should be detrimental!

Yes, but at the same time, if every time you used one, it got blown up and was detrimental to those inside, they'd be pointless. It's also counter to selling models, which means less money, which means GW wouldn't do it. That's why it seems so counterintuitive when you first discover that it now works this way.

Huh... this is kinda cool. My Fire Dragons might survive more than one turn after they blow up tanks now.

Son 0f Dorn wrote: It's also counter to selling models, which means less money, which means GW wouldn't do it. That's why it seems so counterintuitive when you first discover that it now works this way.

That's why a lot of folks will comment about GW screwing over models with edition changes. Some of it is hyperbole, but sometimes there merit in the complaints of models no longer being worth their points. I know I'll always be bitter about Rending going from an extra 1d6 to an extra 1d3 armor penetration for the Tanks Alot Edition {5th].

Partly, it was because you can't disembark and assault.

So if they allowed you to wreck and assault, then you would *want* to have your transports get wrecked; and you would not want to wreck enemy transports. And that wouldn't make any sense.

It should also be noted that the unit will also count as moving in their next Shooting phase as well. It's still more of a nerf to assault units, but it's pretty bad for everyone.

I'm still not convinced on exploding results doing different things.

Locally we're doing it like they got "disembarked" or it doesn't make too much sense

What do you guys think?

Just to clarify, if you blow up an assault vehicle in your turn, the enemy in his turn cannot then assault, since the assault vehicle rule no longer applies owing to the vehicle being dead?

Testify wrote:Just to clarify, if you blow up an assault vehicle in your turn, the enemy in his turn cannot then assault, since the assault vehicle rule no longer applies owing to the vehicle being dead?

The Assault Vehicle rule specifically says it works even if the vehicle is destroyed, of course, it specifies that they may assault in the same turn that they disembark.

So as I see it there's 2 ways to play it:

1) Strict RAW: The units that disembarked from a vehicle destroyed by an opponent's shooting get to assault in the opponent's Assault Phase
2) Compromise: Assault Vehicle simply overrides the normal disembark assault restrictions, so you can't assault in your opponent's turn, but you can assault in your subsequent turn (although strictly speaking the rules don't allow that)

I expect option 2 would be the standard most people opt for.

not to sound dumb, but unless i am mistaken this isn't a detriment to open topped vehicles correct? Orks, Dark eldar and necron are able to hop out and assualt freely as long as it moved 6 inches or less.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Testify wrote:Just to clarify, if you blow up an assault vehicle in your turn, the enemy in his turn cannot then assault, since the assault vehicle rule no longer applies owing to the vehicle being dead?

The Assault Vehicle rule specifically says it works even if the vehicle is destroyed, of course, it specifies that they may assault in the same turn that they disembark.

So as I see it there's 2 ways to play it:

1) Strict RAW: The units that disembarked from a vehicle destroyed by an opponent's shooting get to assault in the opponent's Assault Phase
2) Compromise: Assault Vehicle simply overrides the normal disembark assault restrictions, so you can't assault in your opponent's turn, but you can assault in your subsequent turn (although strictly speaking the rules don't allow that)

I expect option 2 would be the standard most people opt for.

Oh my bad. I don't have any marine codexes so I was unaware of the specific wording.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:not to sound dumb, but unless i am mistaken this isn't a detriment to open topped vehicles correct? Orks, Dark eldar and necron are able to hop out and assualt freely as long as it moved 6 inches or less.

Not sure if it was lost in the new edition but as far as I know, open topped is automatically an assault vehicle. If it isint, my DE are going to get veeeeery dusty

Yes, Open Topped allows Assault after disembarking.

lazarian wrote:Assault vehicles still allow its occupants to charge after its destruction best I can tell so Trukk/Raiders are still fine.

Yes and no. They allow you still to assault if your transport is destroyed on your turn.
But because assault vehicle USR specifies it only allows models to charge on the (player) turn the model disembarked, it doesn't work if they're forced to disembark on your opponents turn.
So no assault from Trukk/Raider/Land Raider that was blown up in enemy.

My local group is also pretty confused regarding the ability to assault after an explodes result, though we agree that you cannot assault after a wrecked result. In the text regarding 'explodes' there is no mention of a disembark action. However, in the summary rules at the back of the book it does specifically states that a unit in a transport that explodes disembarks. This would indicate that a unit in a transport that is exploded cannot assault either, which I think makes sense given the rules regarding wrecked vehicles.

Well, think on this:

Option A - It is the beginnning of the game and I am going second. I have a squad in a rhino. My opponent does nothing to it. On my turn 1, my squad cannot get out and assault until turn 2.

Option B - It is the beginnning of the game and I am going second. I have a squad in a rhino. My opponent wrecks it. On my turn 1, my squad cannot assault until turn 2.

What has changed?

Per the new rules, you cannot assault the turn you get out of your vehicle. Why should you get a bonus for having your vehicle destroyed? It does not seem right at first glance, but on deeper examination, it makes sense.

Luide wrote:

lazarian wrote:Assault vehicles still allow its occupants to charge after its destruction best I can tell so Trukk/Raiders are still fine.

Yes and no. They allow you still to assault if your transport is destroyed on your turn.
But because assault vehicle USR specifies it only allows models to charge on the (player) turn the model disembarked, it doesn't work if they're forced to disembark on your opponents turn.
So no assault from Trukk/Raider/Land Raider that was blown up in enemy.

A popular interpretation but not so, there are plenty of examples of rules that allow you to act in your opponents turn despite that not being the norm, for instance, a number of Necron units can Deep Strike in the opponent's movement phase.

The Assault Vehicle rule says "Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so" if that is your opponent's turn, so be it, strict RAW means you get to launch an assault during your opponents turn after he blows up your vehicle.

The idea that Assault Vehicle does nothing for for the units inside when it is destroyed by the opponent, given it has the caveat that it works "even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed." is patently false.

This rule has an unforeseen effect.

After many games of playtest, we have determined that the ability to assault out of an exploded vehicle vs. a wrecked one severely limited the desire to shoot at transports with high str/AP weaponry during the end game.

Specifically, no one wants to shoot my plague marine rhinos up close because they do not want to explode them so that I can get out and assault next turn. They are content with not attacking them and shooting something else, even if it is farther away.

The vehicle rules for being destroyed actually make you not want to destroy them in the short game. Seems counter-intuitive.

That is basically how my groups meta is going as well, and is the reason I believe that the rules summary in the back of the book does indicate that models on a transport that explodes are supposed to 'disembark'. However, since that is not in the actual rules section regarding transports, it is a little hard to argue that way during a game.

So a rules summary in the back of a rulebook isn't rules? Given that GW as of late has even taken to using the description section as rules, I do not believe it can so easily be disregarded..

My point isn't that the summary is not a part of the rules - its that it contradicts the wording in the standard rules rather directly. The regular rules state that a unit it a vehicle that is exploded must be placed in the where the vehicle was, then take a pinning test. The rules summary has no restrictions on placement, but states that the unit disembarks up to 3", then takes a pinning test.

So, do you place and then move three inches? Do you disembark from an access point as normal, but must stay within the confines of the vehicle? It is incredibly unclear and difficult to reconcile.

That said, I personally feel that a unit in a transport which explodes should be treated as disembarking - otherwise it is rather inconsistent and makes little sense.

Dukal wrote: That said, I personally feel that a unit in a transport which explodes should be treated as disembarking - otherwise it is rather inconsistent and makes little sense.

I agree. Otherwise, exploding or wrecking your opponent's vehicle gives them an advantage they would not have if the vehicle was not damaged.

Warhammer 40k - Parking Lot Edition.

Except keep reading on p.80. It says that passengers from all destroyed vehicles, wrecked *and* exploded, are considered "now disembarked"

That would mean you cant assault from either destroyed situation. Which goes back to making much more sense.