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Yet the power does not specifically state it can go above 10, so you are still wrong.

40k-noob wrote:/me rolls dice to find strength of the psychic attack

/me targets Warboss on bike
/me rolls an 12, omg max strength is 10, this breaks the rules, omg what do I do, what do I do?
/me realises that the rules on what to do in this situation are written, right there, telling me exactly what to do in this exception, apply an automatic wound instead.
/me looks at back at physic power to confirm, yup Strength is equal to result of roll, which means Warboss is Insta-killed.
/me jumps for joy!!
.

Str is capped at 10, find any example where it isn't - everywhere the S stat is defined it is also defined as being a number between 1 and 10, S11 or S12 simply does not exist.
The sentence construct used to explain the rules works like this
These are the rules you try to apply (if some exception condition is met you find instructions in parenthisis telling you what to do)

I'm adding a small note to my gaming kit - it is a card with the following instruction
Roll any number of dice, I will punch you in the face (if you roll one or more 6 I will not punch you in the face)

I will then hand it to anyone who tries to claim a str 11 or 12 based on crush, see how quickly they understand the meaning of that sentence structure.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet the power does not specifically state it can go above 10, so you are still wrong.

Sorry Nos, you are wrong on this one.
The power specifically states that the Strength is the result of the 2d6 roll.
A roll of 2d6 can be 2 or 12 or anything in between.
The rule says that the strength of the hit can in fact be 11 or 12



Automatically Appended Next Post:

maxcarrion wrote:

40k-noob wrote:/me rolls dice to find strength of the psychic attack

/me targets Warboss on bike
/me rolls an 12, omg max strength is 10, this breaks the rules, omg what do I do, what do I do?
/me realises that the rules on what to do in this situation are written, right there, telling me exactly what to do in this exception, apply an automatic wound instead.
/me looks at back at physic power to confirm, yup Strength is equal to result of roll, which means Warboss is Insta-killed.
/me jumps for joy!!
.

Str is capped at 10, find any example where it isn't - everywhere the S stat is defined it is also defined as being a number between 1 and 10, S11 or S12 simply does not exist.
The sentence construct used to explain the rules works like this
These are the rules you try to apply (if some exception condition is met you find instructions in parenthisis telling you what to do)

I'm adding a small note to my gaming kit - it is a card with the following instruction
Roll any number of dice, I will punch you in the face (if you roll one or more 6 I will not punch you in the face)

I will then hand it to anyone who tries to claim a str 11 or 12 based on crush, see how quickly they understand the meaning of that sentence structure.

The section on pg 2 caps the strength of models in the game to a Max of 10.
A psyker using this psychic power is not modifying its strength, it is in fact not using his characteristics at all aside from his leadership during the psychic test.
The strength of the hit is determined solely by the dice roll and is not attributed to the model casting the power. This Psychic power is not capped at 10 as it is currently written.

You got this wrong last time. It doesnt cap the strength of models specifically, it caps the S characteristic to 10.

"Specific" would be - this means a model can have S11 or S12. Just saying 2D6 is NOT specific.

Show me where str 11 or 12 is on the "to Wound" chart. (seperate argument)

A Focused Witchfire attack (which Crush is) follows the rules for Witchfire attacks unless stated otherwise

A Witchfire attack is treated as a shooting attack from an assault weapon - this is a kind of weapon

Weapons wound using a Str characteristic, of which there are 3 kinds -
model Str, which is limited to 10 on pg 2,
modified model Str which modifies the models str during the attack, so is still under the pg 2 limitations
Fixed Str, which is a value between 1 and 10 - as per pg 50.

Crush does not use the model str, therefore it is a Fixed Str attack, the fixed str is determined by rolling 2D6, it is capped at 10 so 11 or 12 breaks the rules, fortunately there is a rider in with the instruction telling you what to do in these circumstances, ergo auto wound but sorry, no ID as the attack does not have a legal str stat and a different rule has been applied in it's sted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You got this wrong last time. It doesnt cap the strength of models specifically, it caps the S characteristic to 10.

"Specific" would be - this means a model can have S11 or S12. Just saying 2D6 is NOT specific.

LOL really?

The rule is specific to the range available on a 2d6 roll, which includes 11 and 12. Arguing that it needs to spell it out is just silly.

No, that is what "specific" means.

You have a rule stating no stat (with specified exceptions) can be over 10. Show me a specific rule stating that you can be S11 or S12. Additionally show me where that Strnegth is on the To Wound chart.

maxcarrion wrote:Show me where str 11 or 12 is on the "to Wound" chart. (seperate argument)

A Focused Witchfire attack (which Crush is) follows the rules for Witchfire attacks unless stated otherwise

It states it otherwise in the rule itself.
Warp Charge 1- It is a focused witchfire power with 18" range. Roll 2d6. The target model suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result ....

I dont need to show it to you because it is not necessary as the wound is automatic.
Then wound chart that is.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, that is what "specific" means.

You have a rule stating no stat (with specified exceptions) can be over 10. Show me a specific rule stating that you can be S11 or S12. Additionally show me where that Strnegth is on the To Wound chart.

By your reasoning it cant have a numeric strength at all as it is not specifically stated in the rule.

No, that isnt the reasoning at all

You have permission to have S1 - 10, and are specifically told that no Char. is allowed to be higher than that

Find *explicit* permission to have a Strength of 11 or 12, as that is what is required. You wont find it because *instead* of having S11 or 12 you wound / penetrate automatically.

The rules state (in the places previously mentioned) that the Str stat is a number between 1 and 10, there is no allowance anywhere in any rule for a str greater than 10.

Quoting the crush description is not helping you as it specifies what to do in the case of an 11 or 12, it does not specify to resolve it as a str 11 hit, it says automatically causes a wound/penetrating hit, which based on the way the sentence is constructed, overrides the 2D6 str instruction.

Are you intentionally misunderstanding things? As nosferatu1001 is being fairly clear, he is not saying that 2D6 is not a specific strength (in fact according to the rules it's rather amusingly a fixed strength by the weapon rules), he is saying that the rule should clearly state that it is overriding the maximum strength rule if it is intended to do so; while that is not always true it is a pretty good guideline. Not only does it not specifically tell you to override this rule it actually gives specific instructions on what to do to avoid overriding this rule.

Personally I don't care if it is S11-12. I don't like the fact that people are saying that if I roll an 11 or 12 I get an automatic wound at S-.
I would rather have a S10 hit that I fail to wound on a 1 then not be able to ID a S5 model if I roll even higher.

And per RAW where I live most TOs are ruling it is a S-.

maxcarrion wrote:The rules state (in the places previously mentioned) that the Str stat is a number between 1 and 10, there is no allowance anywhere in any rule for a str greater than 10.

The rules state characteristic restrictions for models themselves. This particular power does not use or modifiy the models strength in anyway, shape or form. A SM libby using this power is ST4 before, during and after casting this power. Only the hit itself is is resolve by the dice roll. The rule even acknowledges the possibility of a 11 or 12 result by adding that it was cause an automatic wound.
Why didn't they simply add, result of 11 or 12 will be resolved at Strength 10 but wound automatically? Who knows, its GW we are talking about here.

maxcarrion wrote:Quoting the crush description is not helping you as it specifies what to do in the case of an 11 or 12, it does not specify to resolve it as a str 11 hit, it says automatically causes a wound/penetrating hit, which based on the way the sentence is constructed, overrides the 2D6 str instruction.

It does no such thing, the the rule merely states that on a Stregnth result of 11 or 12 do not bother to roll to wound, ti does so automatically. That is that it does, it saves the player a chance at failing to wound or penetrate armor.

maxcarrion wrote:
Are you intentionally misunderstanding things? As nosferatu1001 is being fairly clear, he is not saying that 2D6 is not a specific strength (in fact according to the rules it's rather amusingly a fixed strength by the weapon rules), he is saying that the rule should clearly state that it is overriding the maximum strength rule if it is intended to do so; while that is not always true it is a pretty good guideline. Not only does it not specifically tell you to override this rule it actually gives specific instructions on what to do to avoid overriding this rule.

Please show me in the BRB what weapon rule Crush falls under and I will consider the rest of this statement.

You can recycle your flawed argument all day long, but I would try asking an English teacher about what parentheses do. There is not an interpretation but a definition.

Captain Antivas wrote:You can recycle your flawed argument all day long, but I would try asking an English teacher about what parentheses do. There is not an interpretation but a definition.

I thought they were the first part of any math operation.

In math yes. This is reading comprehension. Totally different.

40k-noob wrote:
Please show me in the BRB what weapon rule Crush falls under and I will consider the rest of this statement.

As much as I hate to say it Pg 96. Crush is a Witchfire power and counts as firing an Assault Weapon.

Gloomfang wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Please show me in the BRB what weapon rule Crush falls under and I will consider the rest of this statement.

As much as I hate to say it Pg 96. Crush is a Witchfire power and counts as firing an Assault Weapon.

So what does the assault weapon rule say on pg 51?

Does it say what Crush's strength is?
Does it limit the strength of Crush?
Does it give Crush a profile of a particular weapon and if so what is it?

I venture to say that it merely means that you can use Crush in the Shooting phase and still assault in the Assault phase but what say you?

Via RAW, I agree with noob. p. 2 is under the heading Models and Units,and the paragraph we are discussing is also specifically talking about model characteristics. I see no rule that disallows a Spells Str to be capped.

Second of all, it seems a bit thin to claim that a spell that says that the Str is 2d6, is not a specific override of any rule that may be in place. I could see if the spell was "model S plus D6" would need a more specific override... but this one is right there.

That said, I think it is painfully obvious that GW seriously does not want anything going above S10. Even Ram attacks were limited. If this were ever FAQd, I would gladly bet $1K that it would not allow S11 or S12.

Finally while the parenthetical phrase adds information, there is nothing in there stating that it replaces or invalidates any other part of the rule.. What we are left with is that a roll of an 11/12 will 'cap' at S10, In addition, it will auto-wound.

There is no basis to assume that rolling a 12 makes S-

coredump wrote:Via RAW, I agree with noob. p. 2 is under the heading Models and Units,and the paragraph we are discussing is also specifically talking about model characteristics. I see no rule that disallows a Spells Str to be capped.

Second of all, it seems a bit thin to claim that a spell that says that the Str is 2d6, is not a specific override of any rule that may be in place. I could see if the spell was "model S plus D6" would need a more specific override... but this one is right there.

That said, I think it is painfully obvious that GW seriously does not want anything going above S10. Even Ram attacks were limited. If this were ever FAQd, I would gladly bet $1K that it would not allow S11 or S12.

Finally while the parenthetical phrase adds information, there is nothing in there stating that it replaces or invalidates any other part of the rule.. What we are left with is that a roll of an 11/12 will 'cap' at S10, In addition, it will auto-wound.

There is no basis to assume that rolling a 12 makes it str-

The problem with your argument, and noob's as well, is that it takes each individual part of a sentence and analyses it separately. Context is everything. You roll 2d6 and determine what the str is. Once you have your roll you look to the parentheses and determine what to do with that. The parentheses offer more information and clarify what the first part of the sentence said. In this case you roll the dice and if you get an 11 or 12 you ignore the str and go right to wounding. I can see an argument for capping at str 10 but not allowing str12 attacks. Not even a MC can do that.

coredump wrote:Via RAW, I agree with noob. p. 2 is under the heading Models and Units,and the paragraph we are discussing is also specifically talking about model characteristics. I see no rule that disallows a Spells Str to be capped.

Second of all, it seems a bit thin to claim that a spell that says that the Str is 2d6, is not a specific override of any rule that may be in place. I could see if the spell was "model S plus D6" would need a more specific override... but this one is right there.

That said, I think it is painfully obvious that GW seriously does not want anything going above S10. Even Ram attacks were limited. If this were ever FAQd, I would gladly bet $1K that it would not allow S11 or S12.

Finally while the parenthetical phrase adds information, there is nothing in there stating that it replaces or invalidates any other part of the rule.. What we are left with is that a roll of an 11/12 will 'cap' at S10, In addition, it will auto-wound.

There is no basis to assume that rolling a 12 makes S-

The only flaw I will state for your argument is that somehow the strength characteristic for a spell is not under the same restraints as a model's strength. If that is not that is not the case, what exactly defines "spell strength" then? Also, how can we wound with this spell, since the only two charts we are able to look at are "weapon strength" a generally fixed characteristic from 1-10 (as user and modifications of user strength nonwithstanding), and the strength characteristic for models? Does that mean that only 11 or 12 wounds, since the power states that it wounds.

Either we accept that the power uses either the model characteristic or weapon characteristic for the word "strength" in the power, taking its limitation, or we are stuck with a new definition of the word which renders the rest of the power inoperable.

Capt: There is nothing in the parenthetical statement that indicates you ignore the first part. It gives an additional rule (auto wound) but the first part is still valid (str 2d6, or in this example, S11, capped to S10)

By insisting that the second part is replacing the first part, you are creating rules that are not stated.

SC: that actually isn't a problem. You don't need the chart, because 11/12 auto wound. In fact, if one wanted to argue intent, it could be viewed as a valid reason why S11/S12 were acceptable, since they gave them an 'out' for not needing the chart.
But as I said, that is academic, there is plenty to indicate that GW never wants anything above 10.

A witchfire power is a weapon. So are power fists. Power fists can't go above S10, why should a random witchfire?

SCvodimier wrote:

coredump wrote:Via RAW, I agree with noob. p. 2 is under the heading Models and Units,and the paragraph we are discussing is also specifically talking about model characteristics. I see no rule that disallows a Spells Str to be capped.

Second of all, it seems a bit thin to claim that a spell that says that the Str is 2d6, is not a specific override of any rule that may be in place. I could see if the spell was "model S plus D6" would need a more specific override... but this one is right there.

That said, I think it is painfully obvious that GW seriously does not want anything going above S10. Even Ram attacks were limited. If this were ever FAQd, I would gladly bet $1K that it would not allow S11 or S12.

Finally while the parenthetical phrase adds information, there is nothing in there stating that it replaces or invalidates any other part of the rule.. What we are left with is that a roll of an 11/12 will 'cap' at S10, In addition, it will auto-wound.

There is no basis to assume that rolling a 12 makes S-

The only flaw I will state for your argument is that somehow the strength characteristic for a spell is not under the same restraints as a model's strength. If that is not that is not the case, what exactly defines "spell strength" then? Also, how can we wound with this spell, since the only two charts we are able to look at are "weapon strength" a generally fixed characteristic from 1-10 (as user and modifications of user strength nonwithstanding), and the strength characteristic for models? Does that mean that only 11 or 12 wounds, since the power states that it wounds.

Either we accept that the power uses either the model characteristic or weapon characteristic for the word "strength" in the power, taking its limitation, or we are stuck with a new definition of the word which renders the rest of the power inoperable.

In this particular case the "spell strength" is not under the same characteristic as the model's. The stats for this spell are constrained within the spell itself, Strength is equal to 2d6 , AP is equal to 1D6 and it is a single hit. Essentially the spell has this profile"
Crush: Focused Witchfire
S AP Type
2D6 1D6 Assault

You would still have to roll to Hit and use the same Strength/Toughness chart but in the case of a roll 11 or 12 the chart is bypassed as the rule tells you it wounds automatically.

This spell seems to be an anomaly in the current rule set, I do not know every codex but this appears to be the only power or ability that uses its own strength and is based on the result of 2d6.
I am fairly certain as Core has mentioned that this will be fixed.


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Jidmah wrote:A witchfire power is a weapon. So are power fists. Power fists can't go above S10, why should a random witchfire?

You cant compare it to a Power Fist because a PF has a fixed multiplier to a models strength.
PF is a 2x "user stength" and is a Melee attack and thus uses the models characteristics.

Crush is a shooting attack, and does not use the model's characteristics just as a Meltagun or a Bolter does not use the model's strength.

The issue is that GW set the strength for this attack solely based on the result of 2d6.

If a shooting attack doesn't need permission to go over 10, why does the power fist? Every single one of your arguments also works for the power fist. The strength of my warboss never surpasses 6, even with a powerklaw.

Did a set of parentheses steal your candy when you were a kid? I can't think of any other reason why you would consistently ignore their existence.

40k-noob wrote:


In this particular case the "spell strength" is not under the same characteristic as the model's. The stats for this spell are constrained within the spell itself, Strength is equal to 2d6 , AP is equal to 1D6 and it is a single hit. Essentially the spell has this profile"
Crush: Focused Witchfire
S AP Type
2D6 1D6 Assault

You would still have to roll to Hit and use the same Strength/Toughness chart but in the case of a roll 11 or 12 the chart is bypassed as the rule tells you it wounds automatically.

This spell seems to be an anomaly in the current rule set, I do not know every codex but this appears to be the only power or ability that uses its own strength and is based on the result of 2d6.
I am fairly certain as Core has mentioned that this will be fixed.

but how do you wound with this power for strength 2-10 then? Since this is a strength that is different from both weapon and model strength, you have no basis to use the chart or even To Wound, since the To Wound tables only tell you to use the attacker's strength characteristic (defined on page 2) or the weapon's strength characteristic, both of which max at 10 and neither of which you state define the strength of this attack.

SCvodimier wrote:

40k-noob wrote:


In this particular case the "spell strength" is not under the same characteristic as the model's. The stats for this spell are constrained within the spell itself, Strength is equal to 2d6 , AP is equal to 1D6 and it is a single hit. Essentially the spell has this profile"
Crush: Focused Witchfire
S AP Type
2D6 1D6 Assault

You would still have to roll to Hit and use the same Strength/Toughness chart but in the case of a roll 11 or 12 the chart is bypassed as the rule tells you it wounds automatically.

This spell seems to be an anomaly in the current rule set, I do not know every codex but this appears to be the only power or ability that uses its own strength and is based on the result of 2d6.
I am fairly certain as Core has mentioned that this will be fixed.

but how do you wound with this power for strength 2-10 then? Since this is a strength that is different from both weapon and model strength, you have no basis to use the chart or even To Wound, since the To Wound tables only tell you to use the attacker's strength characteristic (defined on page 2) or the weapon's strength characteristic, both of which max at 10 and neither of which you state define the strength of this attack.

I just checked and the chart on Pg 14 under the Shooting Phase section of the rulebook has Weapon's Strength v Target's Toughness, so this power can wound under that chart.

Or you could learn what the Parentheses mean.

40k-noob wrote:

I just checked and the chart on Pg 14 under the Shooting Phase section of the rulebook has Weapon's Strength v Target's Toughness, so this power can wound under that chart.

but weapon strength is defined in the weapon's section as a fixed number between 1-10 so it can't be weapon strength, because you say that the power's strength can go above 10

@Kel, I don't thin any amount of mention about parentheses is going to convince him...

SCvodimier wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

I just checked and the chart on Pg 14 under the Shooting Phase section of the rulebook has Weapon's Strength v Target's Toughness, so this power can wound under that chart.

but weapon strength is defined in the weapon's section as a fixed number between 1-10 so it can't be weapon strength, because you say that the power's strength can go above 10

@Kel, I don't thin any amount of mention about parentheses is going to convince him...

Actually you are missing an important part of that section on pg 50. It states the following under the STRENGTH section.
"If a weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. 1 through 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon."

That "if" is very important and allows for the possibility of weapons without a fixed strength, i.e. a psychic power like Crush which has its strength resolved by a dice roll.