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The Lion. Russ is too savage, Khan had the tactical abilities necessary to lead a legion but not the IOM, Vulkan would be good but not as good as el'Johnson, and Corax's obsession with stealth would make him unable to use the Imperial military properly. Of all the loyal primarchs, I'd have voted for Dorn, Sanguinius, or Gulliman, but of those listed, the Lion would be most capable- also, he is the only one listed that we can say is certainly still alive.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:A lucky, cowardly commissar over a front line commander? If you want...

and I'd rather take Creed over a now-dead Lord Solar.

If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

Lynata wrote:That was a very extraordinary situation, though. (studio) fluff makes it clear time and time again that the Imperium works on the concept of "divided we stand", and this is doubly true for the Astartes who had their Legions sliced in neat little Chapters and command authority over the Guard and the Navy taken away. Look at the seats in the Senatorum Imperialis and you will notice that not a single one is reserved for a Space Marine.

A Primarch wouldn't claim the title automatically, but he would exercise command over his first chapter first - in Lion's case, the Dark Angels - but in the long run, his other chapters would gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its going to make the council nervous. What better way to ensure their common interests and reign in a Primarch that to give him a spot on the council?

Tadashi wrote:If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

Primarily because most of those characters don't really fit into GW's setting but live in a world of their own, where a number of different rules seem to apply.

Tadashi wrote:A Primarch wouldn't claim the title automatically, but he would exercise command over his first chapter first - in Lion's case, the Dark Angels - but in the long run, his other chapters would gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its going to make the council nervous. What better way to ensure their common interests and reign in a Primarch that to give him a spot on the council?

Continued here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/463618.page

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

Primarily because most of those characters don't really fit into GW's setting but live in a world of their own, where a number of different rules seem to apply.

And thanks to that, Cadia and the Segmentum have all but fallen.

Tadashi wrote:A Primarch wouldn't claim the title automatically, but he would exercise command over his first chapter first - in Lion's case, the Dark Angels - but in the long run, his other chapters would gravitate to their gene-father. Given the Astartes' semi-autonomy and a Primarch's abilities, its going to make the council nervous. What better way to ensure their common interests and reign in a Primarch that to give him a spot on the council?

Continued here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/463618.page

Yeah, my answer's there too.

Tadashi wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:A lucky, cowardly commissar over a front line commander? If you want...

and I'd rather take Creed over a now-dead Lord Solar.

If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

When was Cadia ovverrun? Also, Gaunt and Cain aren't nearly as good as Creed.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:Creed, he'll just somehow on that list and win

Since Creed is hands down the best Military leader that the Imperium has, then I too would back Lord Castellan Ursarkar E. Creed as Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Tadashi wrote:

If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

Cadia is the bastion that holds back the entire fething warp. It had to withstand Chaos Marines, Deamons and uncountable minions. Grants biggest defense was a hive world, that he ended up having to abandon. Cain only had to defend against a lesser lieutenant of Abbaddon. And would have lost if not for the Necrons. Creed had to fight off Failbaddon, the greatest warmaster since horus, And in the end he won. Failbaddon lead yet another failed crusade.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:A lucky, cowardly commissar over a front line commander? If you want...

and I'd rather take Creed over a now-dead Lord Solar.

If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

When was Cadia ovverrun?

The Cadian Gate is breached. All but the smallest continent is under Chaos control. The Imperial Navy may control Cadian airspace, but only a thin corridor links them through the Warp Storms summoned by Erebus to the greater Imperium. Agripinaa, the industrial heartland of the sector is in ruins. Belis Corona is only partly operational. Orks have all but seized the Scarus Sector. If Abaddon launched a new assault now, the only thing that could stop him is to have all nine loyal legions re-assemble. Seeing as the High Lords prefer their games of russian roulette and wine parties instead of getting anything done, that seems unlikely. How the Emperor must weep to see his Imperium in the hands of such incompetent nobles and bureaucrats.

Also, Gaunt and Cain aren't nearly as good as Creed.

No. Gaunt is Gaunt, 'nuff said. Cain is the Emperor's butt monkey of an avatar. In any case, a Guard hero from the BL novels would have done a better job of keeping Cadia secure.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:Creed, he'll just somehow on that list and win

Since Creed is hands down the best Military leader that the Imperium has, then I too would back Lord Castellan Ursarkar E. Creed as Lord Commander of the Imperium.

Macharius. Solon. Slaydo. Gaunt. Macaroth. Cain. Yarrick. Schaeffer. All of these guys would do a better job than Creed could ever hope to do.

Tadashi wrote:

If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

Cadia is the bastion that holds back the entire fething warp. It had to withstand Chaos Marines, Deamons and uncountable minions. Grants biggest defense was a hive world, that he ended up having to abandon. Cain only had to defend against a lesser lieutenant of Abbaddon. And would have lost if not for the Necrons. Creed had to fight off Failbaddon, the greatest warmaster since horus, And in the end he won. Failbaddon lead yet another failed crusade.

CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.

No, Cadia is still in Imperial Hands under seige but still in Imperial hands. As is the Agripinaa Sector, the Navy has complete and total Space Superiority. The Cadian Gate is held and the Chaos forces can't get reinforcements. Its all over except the clean up.

Tadashi wrote:Macharius [Dead]. Solon [[Dead] Slaydo [Dead] Gaunt [Largest defense was a hive city, not an entire world.] Macaroth [Maybe] . Cain Commisar [cant hold command, and only example is a world he only held by luck, which granted is his USR]. Yarrick [He did save armegeddon]. Schaeffer [Special Forces guy who leads small units, probually not good at the big picture]. All of these guys would do a better job than Creed could ever hope to do.

Yeah, Creed had to deal with the internal betrayal, which left the Entire cadian upper leadership destroyed. He is the most successful Cadian Commander of all time, the most successful of the BEST OF THE BEST the Imperium has. He commands any Imperial force in the Cadia sector, and has Abaddon forces trapped on Cadia under constant bombardment. HE is the Best General the Imperium has. He deserves the Lord Command-ship.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:No, Cadia is still in Imperial Hands under seige but still in Imperial hands. As is the Agripinaa Sector, the Navy has complete and total Space Superiority. The Cadian Gate is held and the Chaos forces can't get reinforcements. Its all over except the clean up.

Agripinaa may be in Imperial control, but victory there is empty - the sector is in ruins. Cadia's supply lines are stretched thin, no thanks to Erebus frakking around with the Warp. An assault now would crush what's left of the Cadian Gate like tinfoil.

Tadashi wrote: If Abaddon launched a new assault now, the only thing that could stop him is to have all nine loyal legions re-assemble.

Where does it say that?

Seeing as the High Lords prefer their games of russian roulette and wine parties instead of getting anything done

O_o

that seems unlikely. How the Emperor must weep to see his Imperium in the hands of such incompetent nobles and bureaucrats.

That's kinda the point of the 40k universe. It's dystopian in the extreme, and life sucks and then you die, the end.

In any case, a Guard hero from the BL novels would have done a better job of keeping Cadia secure.

Yes...because one world can keep the massed forces of a nether realm of insanity, where half the forces of the Imperium fled and now emerge with daemonic enhancement, from overrunning it. Totally. Not hard. Yeah...

Macharius. Solon. Slaydo. Gaunt. Macaroth. Cain. Yarrick. Schaeffer. All of these guys would do a better job than Creed could ever hope to do.

Half of those guys aren't army commanders, assuming they would do a better job is silly. Macharius is a good counter but long dead. Solon and Slaydo...? Really? You're just arguing just to argue at that point.

Tadashi wrote:

If Creed was so great, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun.

See above. One world isn't going to stopped that massed forces of Chaos, if you're expecting it to, you're being silly.

I'd bet half a segmentum that if Gaunt/Cain/or any of the BL Guard characters were in charge, Cadia wouldn't have been overrun. AT ALL.

again, arguing just to argue. And yet, Abaddon's advance would require all 9 original Legions to stop, but Creed is so incompetent that regimental level officers with no higher command experience would totally stop it...

seriously...

CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.

Yet not lost. The forces of Chaos are in the ascendant on the ground, not in space, and the situation has been left intentionally in flux, and the results are in large part due to a player-drive campaign from almost a decade ago.

Vaktathi wrote:

In any case, a Guard hero from the BL novels would have done a better job of keeping Cadia secure.

Yes...because one world can keep the massed forces of a nether realm of insanity, where half the forces of the Imperium fled and now emerge with daemonic enhancement, from overrunning it. Totally. Not hard. Yeah...

Well, it IS Black Library. You know what kind of stories sometimes emerge from there.

Vaktathi wrote:again, arguing just to argue. And yet, Abaddon's advance would require all 9 original Legions to stop, but Creed is so incompetent that regimental level officers with no higher command experience would totally stop it...

And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?

CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.

Yet not lost. The forces of Chaos are in the ascendant on the ground, not in space, and the situation has been left intentionally in flux, and the results are in large part due to a player-drive campaign from almost a decade ago.

Tadashi wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:again, arguing just to argue. And yet, Abaddon's advance would require all 9 original Legions to stop, but Creed is so incompetent that regimental level officers with no higher command experience would totally stop it...

And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?

CADIA. IS. OVERRUN.

Yet not lost. The forces of Chaos are in the ascendant on the ground, not in space, and the situation has been left intentionally in flux, and the results are in large part due to a player-drive campaign from almost a decade ago.

And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: 1. Cadia isn't overrun, its under siege, the Cadians are still in control of part of Cadia. The part controlled by Chaos, is under heavy Naval Bombardment. It can't be resupplied, or reinforced. The Navy is holding.

That still leaves their supply lines through the Warp Storms a nightmarish weak point. And Agripinaa remains in ruins. Belis Corona is infested with Tyranids and only partly operational. The Green Kroosade has all but takes Scarus.

In fact now that you made me argue this out, Creed has better credentials then any of the ones you listed in your poll.

Macharius conquered a thousand and more worlds, the greatest Imperial conquests since the Great Crusade. Slaydo and Macaroth (and Gaunt should have) commanded the Sabbat Worlds Crusade - an endeavor yet to be equaled or surpassed. Yarrick held Armageddon together against the biggest Ork Waaagh!!! since the Ullanor Crusade.

Tadashi wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: 1. Cadia isn't overrun, its under siege, the Cadians are still in control of part of Cadia. The part controlled by Chaos, is under heavy Naval Bombardment. It can't be resupplied, or reinforced. The Navy is holding.

That still leaves their supply lines through the Warp Storms a nightmarish weak point. And Agripinaa remains in ruins. Belis Corona is infested with Tyranids and only partly operational. The Green Kroosade has all but takes Scarus.

In fact now that you made me argue this out, Creed has better credentials then any of the ones you listed in your poll.

Macharius conquered a thousand and more worlds, the greatest Imperial conquests since the Great Crusade. Slaydo and Macaroth (and Gaunt should have) commanded the Sabbat Worlds Crusade - an endeavor yet to be equaled or surpassed. Yarrick held Armageddon together against the biggest Ork Waaagh!!! since the Ullanor Crusade.

So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]

That's stupid. The Emperor's already the Emperor. And if that were the case, then I vote Sanguinius.

Tadashi wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]

That's stupid. The Emperor's already the Emperor. And if that were the case, then I vote Sanguinius.

Whoa buddy, your the one who's bringing dead guys into the mix, with Slaydo, and the Lord Solar. We can have it where its only current Imperial personal with the addedPrimarchs, or we can just be absurd. Your choice.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
So, are we allowing Dead guys to be in this poll? Because if we are then the next Imperial Commander should be the God-Emperor of Mankind. [/thread]

That's stupid. The Emperor's already the Emperor. And if that were the case, then I vote Sanguinius.

Whoa buddy, your the one who's bringing dead guys into the mix, with Slaydo, and the Lord Solar. We can have it where its only current Imperial personal with the addedPrimarchs, or we can just be absurd. Your choice.

Then Lion. No way I'm voting for Creed. Apart from Macharius, no non-Primarch is entitled to be first among equals within the council.

What have the Primarchs done to deserve it, aside from Guilliman. I say no Primarch is entitled to be First among Equals seeing as a FULL HALF of the Primarchs were traitors. The TRUE First Among Equals should be drawn from Somewhere that provides the Majority of the Imperiums Defense. Either from the Imperial Guard or from the Navy.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What have the Primarchs done to deserve it, aside from Guilliman. I say no Primarch is entitled to be First among Equals seeing as a FULL HALF of the Primarchs were traitors. The TRUE First Among Equals should be drawn from Somewhere that provides the Majority of the Imperiums Defense. Either from the Imperial Guard or from the Navy.

Simply because a Primarch is a son of the Emperor. And the Lord Commander Militant and a Grand Admiral already have seats on the council, so the latter point is moot.

Tadashi wrote:Simply because a Primarch is a son of the Emperor. And the Lord Commander Militant and a Grand Admiral already have seats on the council, so the latter point is moot.

Sons of the Emperor were made to lead his crusade fleets and space marine legions to reconquer the galaxy. Not to lead the Imperium in its aftermath.
That's the Emperor's job, and even then he delegated matters to a council back on Terra, and to Malcador.

Tadashi wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What have the Primarchs done to deserve it, aside from Guilliman. I say no Primarch is entitled to be First among Equals seeing as a FULL HALF of the Primarchs were traitors. The TRUE First Among Equals should be drawn from Somewhere that provides the Majority of the Imperiums Defense. Either from the Imperial Guard or from the Navy.

Simply because a Primarch is a son of the Emperor. And the Lord Commander Militant and a Grand Admiral already have seats on the council, so the latter point is moot.

If thats the case there you go, the Imperial Commander should be either the Lord Commander Militant or the Grand Admiral.

Johnson because, while the guy might not be particularly charismatic, he's a tactical genius.

I'd love Russ to. But hes to passionate for battle and I feel he'd end up screwing up. So for this time Its the Lion with the Wolf as "secretary of defense" we can say.

Ronin wrote:
That's the Emperor's job, and even then he delegated matters to a council back on Terra, and to Malcador.

Not exactly...the original War Council had all the Primarchs as members. Then the Council of Terra was established with none of them having a seat...the resentment caused by this was one of many reasons the Horus Heresy broke out. In fact, none of the military had a seat on the council, and IIRC, it wasn't the Emperor who formed the Council of Terra, but Malcador. So we can blame the resentment that helped kill the Imperium's future (which he ultimately did) to Malcador.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Since the Navy already has control of the Cadian Gate Region the (14th Black Crusade?) would have to fight out of the area, then invade other areas.

At least until Erebus fraks around with the Warp again and cuts the corridor off once and for all. This would trap Quarren and Creed at Cadia with no chance of victory, seeing as no reinforcements or supplies will survive. Seeing as this is 40k, and everything is doomed to die in the end, this is going to be the most likely scenario as opposed to a Primarch's return.

EDIT: I've gone over King Arthur's legend (since Lion IS effectively King Arthur), and I've deduced that the Imperium is not yet at its darkest hour. Not even close - the Emperor still lives (if you call that being alive), and the Imperium is still strong (but waning) and united. The Primarchs will return only when all hope is lost, probably the same time the Khornate Knights use that Terminus Decree of theirs.

Whoa... A lot has happened since I looked at this earlier and I wish I could have been here for the Creed arguement.

Tadashi, if you seriously think gaunt is better than Creed you need to go through the fluff again. You're way off. Creed is and will remain one of the greatest tactical geniuses the Imperium has ever seen. Is Macharius better? Maybe. Maybe not. He led an offensive crusade mostly against other humans.

Creed leads a hopeless defense of a doomed world from daemons, bio engineered super humans further empowered through gods, and a myriad of other strange and powerful enemies. They are two separate ideas and you can't compare one to the other accurately.

But creed is the best candidate since his equal in Macharius a thousand years ago.

Tadashi wrote:[
And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?

There are numerous ways to stop a foe besides trapping them in a choke point.

Besides, when you actually look at the GW's stated strength of the Space Marines, and their stated strength of the Imperial Guard, you'll realize the full might of even 9 Space Marine Legions is about equal to the IG's hourly recruitment rate at best. There are 1 million loyalist space marines, in the IG codex it outright states there are *Billions* of IG regiments. Taking the plural *billions* to mean merely 2, its lowest possible meaning, and using say, the Cadian 8th as an average regiment size (some much larger, some smaller) of 10,000 strong, that means we've got 20,000,000,000,000 (twenty trillion) Guardsmen under arms, or about 20,000,000 (twenty million) Guardsmen per Space Marine. This hasn't even started on the Imperial Navy yet. Now, most SM fluff typically points to SM's being worth say, 10 to 12 guardsmen, sometimes more, but the general quote from Rogal Dorn "Give me 100 Space Marines, or failing that, give me 1,000 other men" works for that comparison. Using that, it means the entirety of the loyalist astartes is worth, hrm, 0.00005% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength. Even if we multiply that 10,000 fold, say a Space Marine is worth the ludicrious sum of 100,000 guardsmen each, then the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes matches about one half of one percent of the military might of the Imperial Guard, and that's with multiplying their worth by an astronomically ridiculous number, and still, not counting the Imperial Navy and using the lowest possible number of regiments to match GW's statements.


So, you see really, the Space Marines really don't matter as much as they're made out to...and why Chaos Marines typically comprise only a small fraction of Warmaster Abaddon's forces.

And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun

Again, that doesn't mean it is fallen. It is in limbo, meaning its fate is yet to be determined, though with the IN in the ascendant in orbit, that's probably a good indicator of where things are going.

^ Exalted, simply because of that awesome calculation right there.

Vaktathi wrote:

Tadashi wrote:[
And should Cadia finally fall, how do you expect to stop them as they spread out to surround Terra as they close in for the kill? Is there any choke point left en route to Terra?

There are numerous ways to stop a foe besides trapping them in a choke point.

Besides, when you actually look at the GW's stated strength of the Space Marines, and their stated strength of the Imperial Guard, you'll realize the full might of even 9 Space Marine Legions is about equal to the IG's hourly recruitment rate at best. There are 1 million loyalist space marines, in the IG codex it outright states there are *Billions* of IG regiments. Taking the plural *billions* to mean merely 2, its lowest possible meaning, and using say, the Cadian 8th as an average regiment size (some much larger, some smaller) of 10,000 strong, that means we've got 20,000,000,000,000 (twenty trillion) Guardsmen under arms, or about 20,000,000 (twenty million) Guardsmen per Space Marine. This hasn't even started on the Imperial Navy yet. Now, most SM fluff typically points to SM's being worth say, 10 to 12 guardsmen, sometimes more, but the general quote from Rogal Dorn "Give me 100 Space Marines, or failing that, give me 1,000 other men" works for that comparison. Using that, it means the entirety of the loyalist astartes is worth, hrm, 0.00005% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength. Even if we multiply that 10,000 fold, say a Space Marine is worth the ludicrious sum of 100,000 guardsmen each, then the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes matches about one half of one percent of the military might of the Imperial Guard, and that's with multiplying their worth by an astronomically ridiculous number, and still, not counting the Imperial Navy and using the lowest possible number of regiments to match GW's statements.


So, you see really, the Space Marines really don't matter as much as they're made out to...and why Chaos Marines typically comprise only a small fraction of Warmaster Abaddon's forces.

And until we get new fluff/campaigns for otherwise, Cadia remains overrun

Again, that doesn't mean it is fallen. It is in limbo, meaning its fate is yet to be determined, though with the IN in the ascendant in orbit, that's probably a good indicator of where things are going.

I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.

Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if the Space Marines just seceded, since you don't need us after all? I suppose you don't need the Emperor, either, since technically, he's not Human. And you don't need the Mechanicus either, since they're cyborgs as opposed to being Human. You might as well declare every superhuman/cyborg traitor and renegade, seeing as the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy can handle everything. Who knows, you might actually break the grimdark and win, although I see nothing but death and ruination as the ghosts of dead Astartes and Machine Cult adherents laugh from the Warp at your folly.