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Wytches aren't supposed to do well against shooting, just use them clever (make multi assaults with units that can hit/run, be careful to not assault into Snap fire that can get past your FNP etc).

This isn't 'lets make them more balanced' this is 'my unit isn't the be all end all anymore so they need a rewrite'. The game has shifted away from mele slightly, take a look at jet-bikes if you wanna maintain power rather than trying to hold onto meta from 5th.

DE Jetbikes have been one of their best units since the 5e codex came out. Wyches have never been the end-all be-all; they have a specific, dedicated role as tarpitters of 'bigger' units, and they're unable to perform it due to snapfire.

Their invulnerable save is fluffed in such a way that having it apply to snapfire shouldn't be too much of a stretch, and the bonus that this brings shouldn't be worth more than 2 points per model extra.

chrisrawr wrote:DE Jetbikes have been one of their best units since the 5e codex came out. Wyches have never been the end-all be-all; they have a specific, dedicated role as tarpitters of 'bigger' units, and they're unable to perform it due to snapfire.

Their invulnerable save is fluffed in such a way that having it apply to snapfire shouldn't be too much of a stretch, and the bonus that this brings shouldn't be worth more than 2 points per model extra.

They're unable to tarpit bigger units because of overwatch. Right. I wish that were true as it doesn't realistically make sense for a couple of bdsm clowns to tie up "bigger" units in the first place.

Realism isn't the chief motivating factor behind unit profiles though, and neither is fluff. How much of a stretch it would be "fluffwise" doesn't really enter into it as 4++ would let them pretty much disregard the risk of failing an assault to overwatch wounds. Must agree with davou that it sounds like you just want wyches to be easier to use.

Lotet wrote:can you shoot overwatch when you're pinned or have gone to ground?

Yes and yes. There is almost no way to deny overwatch, which is why all those saying "meh, just play it SMARTER" have no point.

Thinning out units with shooting before charging? Why not just keep shooting instead, then? It takes a LOT of thinning for the average wych squad to make it into combat with respectable strength left.

Multi-charging will still have the enemy focusing on the unit he can damage more easily (pretty much always wyches), and given the nerf to transports it's easy for others to make your multi-assault arrive piecemeal.

davou wrote:Wytches aren't supposed to do well against shooting, just use them clever (make multi assaults with units that can hit/run, be careful to not assault into Snap fire that can get past your FNP etc).

This isn't 'lets make them more balanced' this is 'my unit isn't the be all end all anymore so they need a rewrite'. The game has shifted away from mele slightly, take a look at jet-bikes if you wanna maintain power rather than trying to hold onto meta from 5th.

This. Only replace "shifted away from melee slightly" to "shifted away from melee entirely" where DE are concerned. Dark Eldar assault is dead in this edition, because you have to submit either your transport or your assault units to shooting now. And even though this affects anything in power armour only slightly, it totally kills DE assault, because DE aren't build to withstand fire. Giving Wyches a 4++ against Overwatch doesn't fix this. It's easier to forgo DE assault entirely and focus on the areas in which DE got better: mass skimmer transports and shooting.

lol@almarine BDSM clowns; I don't even play DE outside of Vassal and I know better than that. Wyches are born and raised in environments that make deathworlds look like planetary 5-star cruise ships.

Baronyu wrote: Even as a DE player, I'd say 4++ on overwatch is a bit too much, they'll, in a way, be tougher than those poster boys, since nothing can deny them their save, and anything not S6 or higher will mean they get another 5+ save after that.

I do agree, however, that wyches are 1 of those units that got hit quite hard by the changes in assault: our unit size is usually 7-10 due to having to be on transport, making us the same size as the poster boys assault squad, but we have none of their S4 attacks to hurt people with(do you know how hard it is to roll 5+? ). And then to top it off, when we get overwatched, any shot that causes a wound is only saveable if we have FNP(which mean the unit size has gotta be 9 or under), and that's again, a 5+, if you can roll 5+ more than 50% of the time, you're breaking maths.

Hmm... how about they rewrite our combat drugs instead? May be on the 1 drug, instead of the useless running, we get to use dodge in overwatch, but only if you roll that one on drug.

I really don't think the drugs should be able to allow dodge save in overwatch as all the units that have (or can have) combat drugs don't have a dodge save. Besides, I overwatch has not been that big concern to my wyches so far and I run them in squads of 5.

Almarine wrote:I'm inclined to say suck it up, OP.

Wyches have received an immense buff with haywire grenades now hitting anything on 3+ and glancing hits taking HP. They're now more reliable than warriors in both anti armor and personnel roles. Not to mention they're fleet, which in itself more than makes up for the odd wych you might lose to overwatch every third game.

If you're really super concerned about this, just give them a homonculus.

I love my wyches with those haywire grenades. My friends don't...

Almarine wrote:
They're unable to tarpit bigger units because of overwatch. Right. I wish that were true as it doesn't realistically make sense for a couple of bdsm clowns to tie up "bigger" units in the first place.

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

Hollowman wrote:

Almarine wrote:
They're unable to tarpit bigger units because of overwatch. Right. I wish that were true as it doesn't realistically make sense for a couple of bdsm clowns to tie up "bigger" units in the first place.

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

Please do not make laugh that hard. It hurts. The image in my head... I can't get it out!



Can I put this in my sig?

Simple solution involving a wych squad and another screening squad.

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

Done, 4+ cover save against over watch. With DE mobility this isn't even hard to pull off.

The thing that has had the biggest effect on wyches in my opinion is S4 hits when a vehicle explodes, as per usual this is a non issue for marines and a real pain for everyone else.

gaovinni wrote:

Hollowman wrote:

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

Please do not make laugh that hard. It hurts. The image in my head... I can't get it out!



Can I put this in my sig?

Feel free!

Mushkilla wrote:Simple solution involving a wych squad and another screening squad.

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

Done, 4+ cover save against over watch. With DE mobility this isn't even hard to pull off.

The thing that has had the biggest effect on wyches in my opinion is S4 hits when a vehicle explodes, as per usual this is a non issue for marines and a real pain for everyone else.

I was going to suggest throwing Grotesques in a Raider at the enemy first but your idea is much better and clearly more sensible.

Mushkilla wrote:Simple solution involving a wych squad and another screening squad.

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

Done, 4+ cover save against over watch. With DE mobility this isn't even hard to pull off.

The thing that has had the biggest effect on wyches in my opinion is S4 hits when a vehicle explodes, as per usual this is a non issue for marines and a real pain for everyone else.

Grats, now you've just taken up 2 slots of your 6 troop slots to deal with 1 enemy unit, still gonna struggle at hurting them with S3(good luck with that 1/6 re-roll/S+1/pain token drugs). And gonna struggle hurting everything else because you used up 2 slots for one singular purpose, also the trick will work once per battle.

If anything, I actually prefer what I read elsewhere: Haemy + wyches, detach haemy from the unit, charge 1st, they either overwatch the haemy or risk him getting into assault and deny their overwatch on wyches entirely, either way, the overwatch risk on wyches is gone. No need to take an additional unit to defend a rather weak troop choice, and we usually run haemy with wyches to provide them with FNP or possibly FC(pain token drug) anyway.

@gaovinni

Radioactive spider juice drug, gives you spider sense. 1/6 of a chance to get something that is only useful against BS1 overwatch is hardly overpowered, I'd say.

P.S. I'm in the camp that overwatch doesn't hurt that bad, unless it's tesla of necrons or flamers... But still, I wouldn't argue that a single shot getting through that BS1 overwatch will hurt us more than it does for tougher units.

I would suggest just using venom/raider spam. We all have gimped units in our codex. Looks like wyches got gimped this time. Switch to warriors and just torrent of fire everything to death. Even with the rules weakening transports, it's still a valid way to run the DE.

That said, if you really want to house rule a dodge save for Wyches against overwatch then go ahead. Not like anyone can stop you. Just don't complain at a tournament when they don't give you that same courtesy.

Baronyu wrote:
Grats, now you've just taken up 2 slots of your 6 troop slots to deal with 1 enemy unit, still gonna struggle at hurting them with S3(good luck with that 1/6 re-roll/S+1/pain token drugs). And gonna struggle hurting everything else because you used up 2 slots for one singular purpose, also the trick will work once per battle.

This is how Eldar, both Dark and Light, actually are intended to function.

Indeed, it seems the OP wishes he were Marines.

IMHO the Eldar and Dark Eldar armies are actually designed by the game designers to utilize superior mobility and force concentration to destroy the enemy army with overwhelming force in tiny segments.

They were not designed to go one-on-one, head to head, mano-a-mano with a Space Marine army; to reiterate: they're supposed to carve it apart piecemeal with overwhelming force contentration.

15 wytches vs 10 Marines (2 slots versus 1) is in fact LESS force concentration than I would have expected to have been necessary.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed, it seems the OP wishes he were Marines.

IMHO the Eldar and Dark Eldar armies are actually designed by the game designers to utilize superior mobility and force concentration to destroy the enemy army with overwhelming force in tiny segments.

They were not designed to go one-on-one, head to head, mano-a-mano with a Space Marine army; to reiterate: they're supposed to carve it apart piecemeal with overwhelming force contentration.

15 wytches vs 10 Marines (2 slots versus 1) is in fact LESS force concentration than I would have expected to have been necessary.

Yeah guys! The game is supposed to favor marines!

Jeez, don't you know anything?

I'd say what others have said. Suck it up. Plenty of other assault units in the game have to suffer from overwatch in the same way as wyches, and you think wyches are the exception, because they're high?
Nononono. Wych's would survive most overwatches easily with enough models to take you down wholesale.


QQ I probably look stupid, but whats Vassal?

Also, I'd say Lokas has got a point there in saying that

@DarknessEternal

I wasn't saying that's not how DE is meant to be played, I play DE as you can tell, I was saying that there are better options out there than to burn over 105 points and a slot to escort one not-so-great unit. Hell, bump the cost up ever so slightly, and you could bring in a raider full of warriors to just soften the target up for the wyches, and those warriors will have a role after the wyches got into combat as well.

@Unit1126PLL

I think your marine-defensive goggles are on, try taking them off. No one is trying to steal your poster boy status.

I don't think any DE players would think that our wyches are meant to be able to take on a full-sized marine squad, we didn't call them the tarpit unit just because we get turned on by imagining dark eldar ladies wrestling in tar(hey, whatever floats one's boat!), we've accepted that their killing ability isn't stellar, but they still provided a purpose for their points(They cost more than an unit of warriors, but not as useful). But given that in 6th ed...

-We no longer get our 12" + 2" + D6" + 6" assault, and we just have the same assault distance as everyone... Oh wait, we got fleet! Which many mathammer experts from the Grimdark university have confirmed that will, on average, give fleet units a 2" advantage over non-fleet unit. "High mobility", huh?

-As have been said many times over, overwatch hurt wyches/Eldar units(?) more than other armies because they don't get their saves. One or two shots that go through overwatch are easily negated for the poster boys, but for the 5+/6+ DE/Eldar? We'd just have to take it. Given that we field equal/less than the size of an average marine squad, and the fact that we already weren't that amazing in CC, I'd say we deserved the right to cry a little. Oh, do I need to say that ATSKNF/fearless also prevent sweeping advance? So much for our high initiative helping us win with sweeping advance last edition!

But, I must apologise, as I agreed with Lokas wholeheartedly!

Vassal is a program (found here http://vassal40k.wordpress.com/, http://www.vassalengine.org/) that allows you to play 40K battles online with other people.

Plenty of other assault units in the game like who? Orks are half the cost, and T4. Space Marines cost more, but are T4 and 3+ armour. Tyranids have been gimped since 5e and that's a separate issue. Same to Eldar's Howling Banshees (who are arguably even more gimped by AP3 than they were by overwatch).

Overwatch was a rule designed around Space Marines and Imperial Guard. It may be convenient or hindering for other factions, but it doesn't matter because they are not contributing as much to the GW fund, so don't get as many nice things.

chrisrawr wrote:
Overwatch was a rule designed around Space Marines and Imperial Guard.

How often do you have to resculpt your tinfoil hat?

DarknessEternal wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:
Overwatch was a rule designed around Space Marines and Imperial Guard.

How often do you have to resculpt your tinfoil hat?

Maybe he has a collection of them.

Baronyu wrote:
Grats, now you've just taken up 2 slots of your 6 troop slots to deal with 1 enemy unit, still gonna struggle at hurting them with S3(good luck with that 1/6 re-roll/S+1/pain token drugs). And gonna struggle hurting everything else because you used up 2 slots for one singular purpose, also the trick will work once per battle.

I don't see a problem with overwhelming a single point on the enemy line. As for wyches being cost effective that is another topic all together. The question was concerning wyches and overwatch. My example was just a way to illustrate how you can screen units before they charge. You could use this with any assault unit, you could even screen with rapid firing kabalites if you like.

Last time I checked wyches were a tar-pit unit. The whole problem with overwatch is you don't get enough of them into combat for them to do their job effectively. This is one of the many possible solutions.

Fleet is good, what hurt is the changes to transports, wyches threat range without a transports in 5th 6+3.5+6 = 15.5". Wyches threat range without a transport in 6th 6+9 = 15 (you have a 57% chance of making a 9" charge with fleet). The only difference is now you can shoot and throw a grenade, and people can overwatch you. Fleet in and of itself has not really changed. Every assault unit that doesn't have fleet now has an unreliable charge (charging through difficult terrain with fleet is better then a normal charge without fleet). Simply put, if an assault unit doesn't have fleet this edition its not going to be reliable.

Hormagaunt are easy to take down due to overwatch as well.


Just stop complaining, and kill stuff harder and faster !

Bloodhorror wrote:Hormagaunt are easy to take down due to overwatch as well.


Just stop complaining, and kill stuff harder and faster !

Hormagants are also overcosted for what they give you, and also a bad comparison because they cost half as much and are fearless most of the time.

Still same toughness and wounds and save.

But hormagaunts can be taken in bulk...can't really do that with DE now can you? Another problem is that no DE really aren't that much more mobile than other armies anymore. Jetbikes are probably the one exception there. I still can't move 12" and get out 2" + 1" for base size can I? No I have to move 6" and then disembark/move 6" just like everyone else. And don't even get me started on what a joke fleet has become. Honestly the OPs idea sounds fine to me. After all I can see where you are aiming and with their supernatural reflexes get out of the way.

I thought you could move 12" get out and charge?


Thats what Open topped being an assualt Vechicle meant right?


And I like fleet. I think its become better and SOOOO much more useful !

Akroma06 wrote: Honestly the OPs idea sounds fine to me. After all I can see where you are aiming and with their supernatural reflexes get out of the way.

So how much are you willing to pay for this upgrade? "Free" is not enough.

2 points per model is my suggestion - at 12 points per model, theyre twice as survivable as hormagants against overwatch (as I'd noted above) "Their invulnerable save is fluffed in such a way that having it apply to snapfire shouldn't be too much of a stretch, and the bonus that this brings shouldn't be worth more than 2 points per model extra. "