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With all the changes to assaults, it seems that wyches get some of the shortest ends of the sticks. Overwatch especially can easily put down a few since they only have a pitiful save of +6 normally.

So how about for overwatch shooting only, that wyches should be able to utilize their dodge save?

this is the direction I'm going for WARGAME, so I can't help but endorse it here. Of course, I'm using Evasion as a modifier instead of an invuln, but w/e.

In my opinnion overwatch hitting on a 6 is enough to balance it out. Yes the wyches may take a casualty or two but they lash out enough attacks when they get to the melee part that it doesn't really matter as the invulnerable save protects them quite well. At least that is what I can say from my own experience after trying out my wych heavy DE army in 6th.

Overwatch is painlesslly trivial in the grand scheme of assaults.

How many wyches have you actually lost to Overwatch? How many more wyches have you gotten into combat because of the new rules?

I frequently lose 2-3 wyches off the front every time I assault even basic guardsmen, and worse against marines.

T3 6+ means every wound is going through.

You're either extremely unlucky or charging gigantic squads then.

10 space marines
20 shots
3 hits
2 wounds
no saves.

You're either extremely bad at math, or have never played the game.

Why are you charging 10 marines with Wyches? They are incredibly outclassed by 10 marines.

chrisrawr wrote:You're either extremely bad at math, or have never played the game.

Says the guy who has apparently thrown wyches at undamaged marine squads.

Repeatedly.

Protip: Same math against 50 points of IG, give or take a save.

chrisrawr wrote:Protip: Same math against 50 points of IG, give or take a save.

Except not. 10 guardsmen do ~<5/4 (Sergeants don't have lasguns) of a wound when charged by Wyches. 9 Wyches then completely obliterate 10 guardsmen.

One more thing that popped into mind is that it really depends on the size of your wych squad. It may hurt 5 wyches bad but if you lose 2 out of 10 wyches before the actual close combat that ain't really much in the end... unless one of the casualties was a hekatrix with an agonizer.

Or unless it puts you out of assault range.

Fleet helps with that now.

2" bump on average, better in difficult terrain. You're still losing 1-2 inches from those wyches dying.

Make smarter then, instead of inventing rules to help you be better.

Would apply if rules and armies were all balanced, yes. Unfortunately they aren't by any measure.

Your comments would be a lot more constructive if they weren't ever so slightly missing both the point of PR and the context of the game.

We're not changing things because we are bad at the game, we're making the game better so that the outcome is more about player skill, and less about what codex or dice rolls are involved.

If a staple troops choice for your army is made almost worthless against nearly any other unit of equal points when both are played professionally, there is a problem with something in the game, and fixing it will make the game better. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing on the method, but denying that something needs to be changed in many cases is accepting a subpar game; If you have no problems with 40k, then that's more power to you, but the rest of us would like to play a better game.

I'd actually argue that when a troop in this game is taken in preference to elite unit, there is something wrong with that troop. Then again I've got guardians and they've been pretty much in a worse position than wyches since third edition.
(isn't warriors supposed to be the staple choice?)

>If a staple troops choice for your army is made almost worthless against nearly any other unit of equal points when both are played professionally, there is a problem with something in the game, and fixing it will make the game better.

Staple troops choice for Eldar: Rangers, Guardians.

Worthless against nearly any other unit of equal points? UNDOUBTEDLY.

Problem with something in the game? Yes.

Ergo, Fixing it will make it better? Yes.

Eldar are really in it this edition besides their allies choices. Even GW knows their current rules make them unsustainable - 2 editions behind is absurd!

I'm not arguing that Wyches are more in need of changes than anything else. I'm just stating that, yes, this is a change that would benefit them, and the game, as this is a thread about a change that would benefit them, and the game.

I also don't know anyone who takes Wyches over Incubi. Incubi are awesome. And Trueborn. Succubi and Heckatrix aren't used because they don't compare to the other elites choices, not because they're worse than wyches. This is also a problem with the FOC and inter-FOC balancing, more than it is with anything else.

chrisrawr wrote:We're not changing things because we are bad at the game, we're making the game better so that the outcome is more about player skill, and less about what codex or dice rolls are involved.

So if it's about player skill use skill. Don't make a rule for "what codex or dice rolls are involved".

So... Don't make rules that affect a game of codecies and dice rolls, if I want to change something in a game of codecies in dice rolls?

...

Or how about you stop strawmanning and get the point - 40K has a lot of horrendous oversights when it comes to implementing the new rules. You can either say, "Well, GW should probably address the few units that are more detrimentally affected by overwatch fire than the rest," or you can say "GW obviously intended 10 guardsmen to be unassaultable outside of 5 inches by wyches and orks."

Even as a DE player, I'd say 4++ on overwatch is a bit too much, they'll, in a way, be tougher than those poster boys, since nothing can deny them their save, and anything not S6 or higher will mean they get another 5+ save after that.

I do agree, however, that wyches are 1 of those units that got hit quite hard by the changes in assault: our unit size is usually 7-10 due to having to be on transport, making us the same size as the poster boys assault squad, but we have none of their S4 attacks to hurt people with(do you know how hard it is to roll 5+? ). And then to top it off, when we get overwatched, any shot that causes a wound is only saveable if we have FNP(which mean the unit size has gotta be 9 or under), and that's again, a 5+, if you can roll 5+ more than 50% of the time, you're breaking maths.

Hmm... how about they rewrite our combat drugs instead? May be on the 1 drug, instead of the useless running, we get to use dodge in overwatch, but only if you roll that one on drug.

DarknessEternal wrote:Overwatch is painlesslly trivial in the grand scheme of assaults.

How many wyches have you actually lost to Overwatch? How many more wyches have you gotten into combat because of the new rules?

considering they lost their fleet run move in the shooting phase not many.
You use to get 6+d6
Now you get 2d6 with the reroll but any overwatch kills put you further away.
Charging a 10 man squad you are going to lose 1-2. If they have a flamer, 2-4. That's pretty signifigant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont think getting their 4++ against overwatch is nessisary. I think the answer is in the PGL(Phantasmal Grenade launcher, gives wyches defensive grenades, so you get stealth if you charge somethign close)

perhaps add onto dodge +1 or +2 cover save against overwatch. This way flamers will still kill them(as I think they should) but you get a slightly better chance against bolters and lasguns

I think it would be kinda hard to dodge a laser yes? or a lascannon? Those kinda things move at the speed of light. I dont think anyone on any amount of drugs moves that fast.

Funk3140 wrote:I think it would be kinda hard to dodge a laser yes? or a lascannon? Those kinda things move at the speed of light. I dont think anyone on any amount of drugs moves that fast.

They would react to the aim of the person, not to the incoming laser. An Eldar mind, on powerful psychoactives and stimulants, trained in the wych arenas... She could watch every hair on your finger as you you pull the trigger in slow motion from a football field away. And in the two steps she's taken while you're pulling it, she's on you.

chrisrawr wrote:Protip: Same math against 50 points of IG, give or take a save.

You will lose 1.3194[repeat] (0.8793[repeat] if they rolled a 6 for combat drugs) Wyches from overwatch.
You have 4-5 left, they will then kill 2.6[repeat]- 3.3[repeat] guardsmen, not counting the other combat drugs results.
You will lose 1.125 (0.75FNP) wyches in combat. You win combat. The Guardsmen will have a -2 to leadership. So need 6's He will have a 42% chance to make it. If he fails you need to roll a 3+ to sweep.

Result, No wyches do not need a Dodge save for Over watch.

can you shoot overwatch when you're pinned or have gone to ground?

I'm inclined to say suck it up, OP.

Wyches have received an immense buff with haywire grenades now hitting anything on 3+ and glancing hits taking HP. They're now more reliable than warriors in both anti armor and personnel roles. Not to mention they're fleet, which in itself more than makes up for the odd wych you might lose to overwatch every third game.

If you're really super concerned about this, just give them a homonculus.

Almarine wrote:
Wyches have received an immense buff with haywire grenades now hitting anything on 3+ and glancing hits taking HP. They're now more reliable than warriors in both anti armor and personnel roles. Not to mention they're fleet, which in itself more than makes up for the odd wych you might lose to overwatch every third game.
If you're really super concerned about this, just give them a homonculus.

The have always had fleet, which has always helped them get into assault. Now it is less effective.
They have always had the homoculus, and now FNP is 5+ not 4+

now they are great against vehicles but rather bad against everything else. Warriors are also rather bad against everything. DE troop choices just keep getting the shaft.

Exergy wrote:Warriors are also rather bad against everything.

Wait, what?