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Agreed indeed.

coredump wrote:There are two *separate* issues at hand here. They *may* happen to the same model, but not necessarily.


1) If a model with I5 charges into a whip, then that whip dies at I3, what happens?


2) If a model with I4 charges but does not get into base, then at I4 piles in and gets into base with a whip, what happens?

These situations happen independently of each other, and they needed to be decided independently.

RAW:
1) He doesn't get any attacks since he's not I1 anymore.

2) He gets to attack again at I1 which is hilarious.

They should word it as "any model in base contact at the start of the fight sub-phase counts as I1 until the end of the fight sub-phase". I think that's both a fairer and saner way to play it.

You guys are missing the way combat works in 6th, pile in and attacks are not separate, they are all done at an initiative step. So if a models piles in at I4 and gets into b2b with a whip coil he also attacks at i4 step because he began at the I4 step. In order for whip coils to work RAW they need to be in contact before pile in moves at higher Initiative checks.

Otherwise according to your reasoning a model could carry a power axe and power sword and make his full attack at I4 with the sword then make another pile in at I1 and attack again.

Red Corsair wrote:You guys are missing the way combat works in 6th, pile in and attacks are not separate, they are all done at an initiative step. So if a models piles in at I4 and gets into b2b with a whip coil he also attacks at i4 step because he began at the I4 step. In order for whip coils to work RAW they need to be in contact before pile in moves at higher Initiative checks.

Otherwise according to your reasoning a model could carry a power axe and power sword and make his full attack at I4 with the sword then make another pile in at I1 and attack again.

This is an interesting idea. It may even be the way it gets FAQ'd making whip coils and lash whips much less and in many cases near useless. We just play this with more of a common sense agreement. They move in at their normal initiative, get dropped to I1 and attack at I1. If the wraith dies, they get to go back to their normal initiative, if their normal I phase has already passed they get to attack immediately.

There is no RAW to support this however I don't really believe there is any RAW that covers this peculiar situation. The closest RAW would suggest there is a chance high I models would lose their attacks if the wraith dies. None of the RAW really seemed to make sense, so that's where the agreement between players came from.

Red Corsair wrote:You guys are missing the way combat works in 6th, pile in and attacks are not separate, they are all done at an initiative step. So if a models piles in at I4 and gets into b2b with a whip coil he also attacks at i4 step because he began at the I4 step. In order for whip coils to work RAW they need to be in contact before pile in moves at higher Initiative checks.

Otherwise according to your reasoning a model could carry a power axe and power sword and make his full attack at I4 with the sword then make another pile in at I1 and attack again.

The whip coil wording disagrees with you, if you look at my post on the other page. It starts off "whilst any enemy model is in base contact with...they count their initiative as 1 regardless of their actual initiative."

Yes, they were written for 5th edition, yes they don't quite work properly in 6th edition, and yes they work exactly has been stated previously where the model piles in at I4 but if they hit base contact they are initiative 1 then, as there is NO qualifier in the whip coils for WHEN it takes effect outside of "whilst in base contact". As we all know, the BRB rules are a baseline and codices are like amendments. So just because the rulebook says "this is how it works for all models" does not mean that is how it "always" works for all models.

As for your example, no they could not because a model only gets one pile in and one attack step per player turn and the rules says that a model with different close combat weapons must choose one to make all attacks with and can not mix and match abilities.

Kevin949 wrote:[As for your example, no they could not because a model only gets one pile in and one attack step per player turn and the rules says that a model with different close combat weapons must choose one to make all attacks with and can not mix and match abilities.

You're only partially correct. Part about having to choose what weapon to use for making attacks is true. But you're dead wrong about model only getting one pile in and attack step per player turn, there is no language in rules to support this RAW. (I do agree that it is RAI).

So lets take example action:
Marine Sergeant piles in at I4 to plain Wraith and kills it. At I2, wraith with Coils piles in b2b with this marine. By RAW At I1, marine can make another attack.

By strict RAW, any weapon that strikes at Initiative other than the models own Init doesn't actually work. This should tell you how well the rules actually work...
I hate to say it, but because GW screwed up the rules, you just have to make up some house-rules or ask TO to make a ruling about how Whip coils work, because RAW obviously isn't RAI.

Luide wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:[As for your example, no they could not because a model only gets one pile in and one attack step per player turn and the rules says that a model with different close combat weapons must choose one to make all attacks with and can not mix and match abilities.

You're only partially correct. Part about having to choose what weapon to use for making attacks is true. But you're dead wrong about model only getting one pile in and attack step per player turn, there is no language in rules to support this RAW. (I do agree that it is RAI).

So lets take example action:
Marine Sergeant piles in at I4 to plain Wraith and kills it. At I2, wraith with Coils piles in b2b with this marine. By RAW At I1, marine can make another attack.

By strict RAW, any weapon that strikes at Initiative other than the models own Init doesn't actually work. This should tell you how well the rules actually work...
I hate to say it, but because GW screwed up the rules, you just have to make up some house-rules or ask TO to make a ruling about how Whip coils work, because RAW obviously isn't RAI.

Ya, I can agree with you that the RAW and RAI aren't supporting each other on this one. Or, we all really just think this isn't how GW wanted it but in reality they did want it this way because, well, you know, MARINES ARE BESTEST! (Sorry, had to). In all seriousness though, I agree with you that the RAW and RAI don't agree with each other.

Personally, I'll continue to play it as each model gets one pile in and attack step per player turn (as I'm sure many others will as well), or I'll just stop taking whip coils. Hah.

Kevin949 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:You guys are missing the way combat works in 6th, pile in and attacks are not separate, they are all done at an initiative step. So if a models piles in at I4 and gets into b2b with a whip coil he also attacks at i4 step because he began at the I4 step. In order for whip coils to work RAW they need to be in contact before pile in moves at higher Initiative checks.

Otherwise according to your reasoning a model could carry a power axe and power sword and make his full attack at I4 with the sword then make another pile in at I1 and attack again.

The whip coil wording disagrees with you, if you look at my post on the other page. It starts off "whilst any enemy model is in base contact with...they count their initiative as 1 regardless of their actual initiative."

Yes, they were written for 5th edition, yes they don't quite work properly in 6th edition, and yes they work exactly has been stated previously where the model piles in at I4 but if they hit base contact they are initiative 1 then, as there is NO qualifier in the whip coils for WHEN it takes effect outside of "whilst in base contact". As we all know, the BRB rules are a baseline and codices are like amendments. So just because the rulebook says "this is how it works for all models" does not mean that is how it "always" works for all models.

As for your example, no they could not because a model only gets one pile in and one attack step per player turn and the rules says that a model with different close combat weapons must choose one to make all attacks with and can not mix and match abilities.

I read whip coils thank you, and I know what it says, it is irrelevant to my point. Please read what I posted. Once your initiative step is called, it doesn'e matter if your initiative becomes reduced by the coil because you have already begun your initiative step. Please re-read the CC section of the rules, you pile in AND attack AT your initiative step. SO a marine starts at I4 step, piles in and attacks because it specifically says that you make your move and attack once you begin your initiative step, and if you are still in b2b then are I1 for the next round.

RAW does not say you only get one pile in OR initiative step. It does however give an example using unique wargear like a power axe, this modifies the models initiative to 1, but notice it never specifically tells us when we declare what weapon we are using for the combat. RAI is obvious to me, and it would be declare it before you start the initiative steps and this only supports my argument that the whip coils need to modify the models initiative before their normal initiative step arrives.

Red Corsair wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:You guys are missing the way combat works in 6th, pile in and attacks are not separate, they are all done at an initiative step. So if a models piles in at I4 and gets into b2b with a whip coil he also attacks at i4 step because he began at the I4 step. In order for whip coils to work RAW they need to be in contact before pile in moves at higher Initiative checks.

Otherwise according to your reasoning a model could carry a power axe and power sword and make his full attack at I4 with the sword then make another pile in at I1 and attack again.

The whip coil wording disagrees with you, if you look at my post on the other page. It starts off "whilst any enemy model is in base contact with...they count their initiative as 1 regardless of their actual initiative."

Yes, they were written for 5th edition, yes they don't quite work properly in 6th edition, and yes they work exactly has been stated previously where the model piles in at I4 but if they hit base contact they are initiative 1 then, as there is NO qualifier in the whip coils for WHEN it takes effect outside of "whilst in base contact". As we all know, the BRB rules are a baseline and codices are like amendments. So just because the rulebook says "this is how it works for all models" does not mean that is how it "always" works for all models.

As for your example, no they could not because a model only gets one pile in and one attack step per player turn and the rules says that a model with different close combat weapons must choose one to make all attacks with and can not mix and match abilities.

I read whip coils thank you, and I know what it says, it is irrelevant to my point. Please read what I posted. Once your initiative step is called, it doesn'e matter if your initiative becomes reduced by the coil because you have already begun your initiative step. Please re-read the CC section of the rules, you pile in AND attack AT your initiative step. SO a marine starts at I4 step, piles in and attacks because it specifically says that you make your move and attack once you begin your initiative step, and if you are still in b2b then are I1 for the next round.

RAW does not say you only get one pile in OR initiative step. It does however give an example using unique wargear like a power axe, this modifies the models initiative to 1, but notice it never specifically tells us when we declare what weapon we are using for the combat. RAI is obvious to me, and it would be declare it before you start the initiative steps and this only supports my argument that the whip coils need to modify the models initiative before their normal initiative step arrives.

Just because you say it's irrelevant doesn't mean it is. I read what you posted which is why I responded (??). You're just restating what you already said, and I don't think you're actually following the rest of the thread, so I'm just going to stop right here. Have fun!