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So there's another thread about the whip coil equiped wraiths dying, but this came up in a game the other day and is a little different and just as confusing. A unit of 3 wraiths all with whip coils charges a squad, in this case plauge marines. A number of plauge marines are not in base contact and get their pile in move at the initiative 3 step, bringing them into base contact. When do they strike? To speed the game along I just let them strike at initiative 3, figuring it's sort of a counter-charge, but RAW can go a couple ways. Thoughts anyone?

They will make their pile in move at Initiative 3, then whip coils will bring them to 1 if they are in base contact with any of your whips (assuming your the one assaulting). In the end, they will be attacking second, but they will get in more attacks potentially if the dice gods are unfavorable on the Necrons' side.

To be honest though, if your opponent wants to debate it, roll off for it. Thatd be the preferred method to situations of this instance as the Whip Coils FAQ doesnt cover instances as such.

Any model in btb with a Wraith equipped with whip coils is considered I1. You pile in at I3 in btb and strike at I1. If you want to avoid that, just use some dudes as a meat shield and pile your guys in within 2" of the btb Plague Marines.

Once in base, they are I1. So they should strike at I1

Seems pretty simple to me: They pile in at the I3 step, and the ones who are eligable to attack and aren't in btb with a wraith strike at I3, then the ones that are in btb have to hold their attacks until the I1 step. No cause for headaches!

In other words, Wraiths ROCK.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:Seems pretty simple to me: They pile in at the I3 step, and the ones who are eligable to attack and aren't in btb with a wraith strike at I3, then the ones that are in btb have to hold their attacks until the I1 step. No cause for headaches!

and what happens if the Wraith that the guy is in B2B with dies?

Does the model get to Pile in at I1 to get into B2B again?

Does the model Pile in at whatever Initiative the wraith died at even if it is lower than his Initiative?

Does he lose his attacks because his initiative is already passed by?


It is far easier to make pile in moves and strike at whatever initiative you start the step at, even if after you pile in your Initiative is lowered. (And supported by the rules: )

"Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached" P.23

So if they start to pile in they will attack no matter what their Initiative is set to after they start to pile in.

if you kept reading that paragraph though it says,"Note that certain situations, abilities, and weapons can modify a model's Initiative." Meaning as soon as they get into base to base they become Initiative 1.

BrotherGecko wrote:if you kept reading that paragraph though it says,"Note that certain situations, abilities, and weapons can modify a model's Initiative." Meaning as soon as they get into base to base they become Initiative 1.

Right, but once you start to make a pile in move, you make your attacks even if you are subsequently reduced to Initiative 1.

This is because:

"Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached" P.23

If you are piling in, you are making your attacks.

They Pile in when they make their attacks. If someone is I1 why did you pile in in the first place at I4?

So they had I4 you say, on what happens to the (Now) I1 model when the guy he is in Base contact with dies at I3 because of a Grey Knight with a Halberd kills the model in Base contact with the (Now) I1 model? Do they lose their attacks because I4 is already gone and they are back to I4?

See the issue with instantly dropping the Initiative value and making them attack at I1?

Took me a second to piece together your question.

First answer is that a Grey Knight with a halberd in base to base with a whip coil wraith is I1 anyways so.....

And yes a I3 model that piles in becomes I1 as soon as it get base to base with the whip coil wraith. As a model that piles in is treated as charging (with no bonuses). So if your I4 when you charged the whip coil makes you now I1. You couldn't say he charged at I4 but now is I1 so who did he get there....can't say the same for pile in. Also you pile in everyone on both sides then you attack at the initiative that your at. Whip coils lowered it so they have to wait now that they piled in.

Necron codex over rules BRB anyways.

BrotherGecko wrote:Took me a second to piece together your question.

First answer is that a Grey Knight with a halberd in base to base with a whip coil wraith is I1 anyways so..

Sure, then the Inquisitor at I3 that is not in Base contact kills the wraith that has the whip coil, what then?

Does the GK at I4 lose his attacks?

It causes more problems than it is worth.

An Inquisitor is I4 so its the same as the Grey Knights for pile in purposes. Seeing as an Inquisitor is a character (independent type too) at the I4 initiative step it must move first to pile in. So getting it outside base to base is going to be very hard to set up don't you think?

BrotherGecko wrote:An Inquisitor is I4 so its the same as the Grey Knights for pile in purposes. Seeing as an Inquisitor is a character (independent type too) at the I4 initiative step it must move first to pile in. So getting it outside base to base is going to be very hard to set up don't you think?

Not with only a 3 inch move...

Are you going to dodge my question all day?

Instead of the inquisitor in the post above, say a Crusader with a power sword piles in at I3, and is engaged but not in Base contact, and he Kills the wraith with the whip coil. The scenario now looks like this:

If someone is I1 why did you pile in in the first place at I4?

So they had I4 you say, on what happens to the (Now) I1 model when the guy he is in Base contact with dies at I3 because of a Crusader with a power sword kills the model in Base contact with the (Now) I1 model?

Do they lose their attacks because I4 is already gone and they are back to I4?

How do you resolve the scenario above, and why?

Really your asking two questions.
1. What happens to models that pile in?

Which is answered by their Initiative gets lowered like normal.

2. If a model outside of base to base attacks at its normal Initiative that happens to be lower then the models in base to base with the whip coil Wraiths. Kills all of the Wraiths with whip coils, what happens to the models that have their Initiative no longer effected by the whip coils?

That is a harder question to answer. Is it not very likely to happen? Yes it will not come up too many times. Is it more of a head ache to think up how to make whip coils really confusing? Yes it is lol. What happens as far as the rules are concerned not sure to be honest. More then likely they will no longer be engaged with anything else and can't attack, possibly lose their attacks as their normal step was skipped or you just jump back to their Initiative step.

DeathReaper wrote:

BrotherGecko wrote:Took me a second to piece together your question.

First answer is that a Grey Knight with a halberd in base to base with a whip coil wraith is I1 anyways so..

Sure, then the Inquisitor at I3 that is not in Base contact kills the wraith that has the whip coil, what then?

Does the GK at I4 lose his attacks?

It causes more problems than it is worth.

No, it creates *1* problem, and it really isn't a big one.

Plus that problem is completely independent of the question at hand.
If the marine captain gets into base contact on the charge (not pile in) and then the wraith is killed at I4... the same problem develops.

This is not much of a problem; will be fairly rare in any case; and is quite easily resolved.
Either have him still attack at I1 (as you would for Lash Whips), or let him attack at the next Init step.
"Problem" solved.

"Problem" solved. without using any rules...

It causes more problems than it is worth.

Having the models attack on the initiative step that they pile in at is the best way to handle the situation.

The rules also equate the models initiative step with when the model makes pile in moves and attacks.

Doesn't matter if the model attacks with the pile in step (which the rules don't clearly state as being a true statement), as soon as you make base contact with a whip coil Wraith it becomes I1. Can't get around that.....that is how the rules work plainly.

The easiest way to resolve it is to either allow them to attack at their old Initiative or to simply keep it at I1. As everything else has clear rules.

DeathReaper wrote:"Problem" solved. without using any rules...

It causes more problems than it is worth.

Having the models attack on the initiative step that they pile in at is the best way to handle the situation.
.

Which is problem solved by breaking rules.

Yes, there is no RAW answer for what happens when the whip goes away at I3 with the captain in base contact. But reading the rules your way does not stop this problem. It can still happen. So even if you ignore the rules for whips, it doesn't get rid of the 'problem' you are concerned about.

Once he model is in base with a mode with whips, they are at I1. Therefore they now have I1 as their init step. There is no rule that says you are 'locked in' to the same init step the entire phase. If your I changes, your I-step changes.

It is a pain, and has come up a few times in my games against Wraiths.

In our games we decided initiative steps are decided at the start of combat and don't change. So they would still strike at I1. Purely a house rule with no RAW support, but helps keep the game going.

coredump wrote:Yes, there is no RAW answer for what happens when the whip goes away at I3 with the captain in base contact. But reading the rules your way does not stop this problem.

Actually it does.

you attack when your initiative value is reached.

So you start your check for Initiative 4, everyone on I4 starts piling in and makes their attacks. Then you check for I3 people and so on.

Since Models only get one set of attacks at their initiative, then there is no issues.

You pile in and attack at your initiative step, period. If you are in B2B with a whip coil you are I1, if you are not in B2B with a whip coil before your initiative step arrives you don't stop mid way and end the step. Re-read the 6th CC rules, you pile in and attack all in your initiative step, once it starts you can't pause it. So if 3 wraiths for example charge 10 marines and make B2B with 5 of them, then before you start going down through the initiative steps they were In 1 due to whip coils, so the other 5 marines will begin their step at I4 making a pile in move, and even if they are in b2b with whip coils as a result, they will continue their initiative step of 4 and make their CC attacks.

Red Corsair wrote:You pile in and attack at your initiative step, period. If you are in B2B with a whip coil you are I1, if you are not in B2B with a whip coil before your initiative step arrives you don't stop mid way and end the step. Re-read the 6th CC rules, you pile in and attack all in your initiative step, once it starts you can't pause it. So if 3 wraiths for example charge 10 marines and make B2B with 5 of them, then before you start going down through the initiative steps they were In 1 due to whip coils, so the other 5 marines will begin their step at I4 making a pile in move, and even if they are in b2b with whip coils as a result, they will continue their initiative step of 4 and make their CC attacks.

Ok, so grey knight with nemisis halberd piles in to base to base at init 6 and swings at init 6. He becomes init 1.
At init 1, it's his turn again...

-Matt

Yak did a poll on this here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/461181.page

DeathReaper wrote:

BrotherGecko wrote:Took me a second to piece together your question.

First answer is that a Grey Knight with a halberd in base to base with a whip coil wraith is I1 anyways so..

Sure, then the Inquisitor at I3 that is not in Base contact kills the wraith that has the whip coil, what then?

Does the GK at I4 lose his attacks?

It causes more problems than it is worth.

RAW, he's I4 again so he doesn't get any attacks at the I1 step.

I'm willing to bet this will be FAQ'd so that the I1 lasts until the end of the phase even if the wraith is killed. I think this is the fairest way to play it.

There are two *separate* issues at hand here. They *may* happen to the same model, but not necessarily.


1) If a model with I5 charges into a whip, then that whip dies at I3, what happens?


2) If a model with I4 charges but does not get into base, then at I4 piles in and gets into base with a whip, what happens?

These situations happen independently of each other, and they needed to be decided independently.

1) he attacks at I1.

2) He makes his attacks and is I1 on the next assault phase. he does not become I1 until the end of combat.


Or simply initiative steps are counted at the start of the combat portion of the assault phase and rechecked at the beginning of the next.

Yowza - watching this thread as it is questionable. Sounds like the model should just stay I1 even if the wait dies for simplicity or if piled in on him the. Next phase of combat he should be I1 for simplicity.

I'm sorry, but according to the wording of the whip coils it does say "whilst an enemy is in b2b contact with....they count their initiative as 1 regardless of their actual initiative." By the strictest reading of the rules, if an I4 piled in, they would be I1 at that point and if that wraith was killed at I3 then the model would be I4 again, thus losing their attacks as I4 has already gone. It's ridiculous, and probably not as intended, but going by the strictest reading of the rule that is how it is.

O I can see it that way 100% but don't think it's intended which is why I'm pro the other way I posted. I see what you say clearly and by strictest rules I think your right... But it's cheating the other guy out of attacks. When i say cheating I just mean the rules are cheating him not the player.

Kal-El wrote:O I can see it that way 100% but don't think it's intended which is why I'm pro the other way I posted. I see what you say clearly and by strictest rules I think your right... But it's cheating the other guy out of attacks. When i say cheating I just mean the rules are cheating him not the player.

I agree, and do feel the same way. I also would "not" play it by that strict reading. But if my opponent was being a d**k I'd pull it on him.

*edit*
However, I WOULD play it that anyone that piles in(to b2b) at I23456789(10) would immediately be I1 and strike accordingly, but they would I1 for only that turns sub-phase unless they are in b2b with a whip coil at the start of the next fight sub-phase, or if they pile into one.