Lone Dragoon wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:FNP does not negate the unsaved wound. It simply let's us ignore it. Since it still exists its effects still exist.
FNP doesn't negate the wound, it ignores it.
It is treated as an unsaved wound, meaning it is not a saved wound it is simply considered to be saved.

These statements contradicts themselves.

Captain Antivas wrote:Only a saving throw can create a saved wound.
Only saving throws can make a wound saved.
FNP rule says we ignore the effects of any wound which was unsaved. It is not a saved wound

These statements are incorrect. Re-read what FNP says.

I used to think you were cool. Now I see you are a troll. I will not feed the trolls. You are wrong, and I will play the rules as they are written and not cheat and have a good time with my gaming group.

So because someone points out holes in your logic (granted he could have gone more in depth on how they are wrong or contradictory), and you call them a troll? Then call me a troll too because you're wrong, and here's why. First of all, read the new FnP rules, they HAVE changed in 6th. Feel No Pain grants a FnP roll that is not a saving throw, but a successful FnP roll counts as the wound having been saved. This means that the order of operations in this situation would not matter, as if the FnP roll is passed the end result is they have a saved wound. So if they decide to apply ES first, then a subsequent FnP roll kicks in, there is still no unsaved wound which means that Entropic strike does not kick in because even though FnP happened afterwards, the result is still a saved wound. If FnP goes first and passes, obviously ES doesn't kick in. With the current wording of FnP, the only time it matters when it kicks in is if the attack can inflict instant death on an unsaved wound.

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:
An effect of an unsaved wound is a special rule associated with the unsaved wound. Removing a wound from the model's Wound characteristic is a result. An unsaved Wound is a result, removing the armor save is an effect.

Got a rules quote to back that up?

No, but you don't have a rules quote that says your interpretation is right either. I never made a claim that it was in the rules either. It is an interpretation of the words in the book, this is not something that would be covered by the rules. What I am saying is that I do not consider removing a wound an effect based on the definition of the word effect.

MJThurston wrote:Ahhhh.

You do realize that when Yakface makes a post, there is no reason to keep arguing about it.......

MJThurston wrote:Ahhhh.

You do realize that when Yakface makes a post, there is no reason to keep arguing about it.......

Steel Angel wrote:Well to be honest I think for the most part which come first is the big question of the matter. if you make your FnP ES gets removed cause the wound counts as saved after that. But the big problem comes in when you have say a Character with ES in a unit attacking because the rest of the unit gets the benefits of ES too. With the int. phases now how does that work?

hisdudeness wrote:You mean this definition? something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence. From dictionary.com

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:You mean this definition? something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence. From dictionary.com

No, this one from Miriam Webster.com:

1 a : purport, intent b : basic meaning : essence (not relevant)
2 : something that inevitably follows an antecedent (as a cause or agent) (antecedent meaning a preceding event, condition, or cause, the unsaved Wound being the cause)
3 : an outward sign : appearance (An outward sign. The effect of entropic strike is the outward sign caused, the dissolving of your armor.)
4 : accomplishment, fulfillment (not relevant)
5 : power to bring about a result : influence <the content itself of television … is therefore less important than its effect — Current Biography> (Power to bring about the result, meaning not the result.)
6 plural : movable property : goods <personal effects> (not relevant)
7 a : a distinctive impression <the color gives the effect of being warm> b : the creation of a desired impression <her tears were purely for effect> c (1) : something designed to produce a distinctive or desired impression —usually used in plural (2) plural : special effects (not relevant)
8 : the quality or state of being operative : operation <the law goes into effect next week> (not relevant)

MJThurston wrote:Ah

When Yakface makes a post there is no reason to continue arguing.......

grendel083 wrote:So where it says "treat it as having been saved" we are to ignore that part of the rule?

Edit:
And where does it say ES goes before FNP?
They both trigger on an unsaved wound, what makes one go before the other?

nohman wrote:

grendel083 wrote:So where it says "treat it as having been saved" we are to ignore that part of the rule?

Edit:
And where does it say ES goes before FNP?
They both trigger on an unsaved wound, what makes one go before the other?

The word "Immediately" in one, and lacking in the other...

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:

grendel083 wrote:So where it says "treat it as having been saved" we are to ignore that part of the rule?

Edit:
And where does it say ES goes before FNP?
They both trigger on an unsaved wound, what makes one go before the other?

The word "Immediately" in one, and lacking in the other...

Show us where 'immdeiately' is defined in relation to timing in the rules and what it does/does not resolve faster then.

The Oxford English Dictionary wrote:adverb
1 at once; instantly:
I rang immediately for an ambulance
2 without any intervening time or space:
she was sitting immediately behind me
3 in direct or very close relation:
they would be the states most immediately affected by any such action

hisdudeness wrote:Show us where 'immdeiately' is defined in relation to timing in the rules and what it does/does not resolve faster then.

Necron Codex Page 29 wrote:"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle..."

Basic Rule Book Page 35 wrote:"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)."

nohman wrote:Ok, if you didn't have an unsaved wound, how did you roll FNP?

nohman wrote:
The game is written in English, therefore we need to take the standard definitions of words in English, or else the entire thing breaks down. Here is the definition of "Immediately" as per the Oxford English Disctionary.

We can clearly tell from the listed examples that definition 1 is the most appropriate one here. Possibly 2 as well. 3 relates to physical locations and so is inappropriate, as given by the example.
If you want to argue that this is irrelevant as it is not defined in the rules themselves, then we have a serious problem, as I'll wager 99% of the words in the book are never defined. For example, give me a rules definition of "is".

How this relates to the argument at hand? At once or Instantly means that it was done before any other action. As FNP does not contain that clause, but ES/Boneswords do, then it must logically come after them, or else they were not done "At once; instantly" were they?

Captain Antivas wrote:

hisdudeness wrote:Show us where 'immdeiately' is defined in relation to timing in the rules and what it does/does not resolve faster then.

Necron Codex Page 29 wrote:"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle..."

Basic Rule Book Page 35 wrote:"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)."

DeathReaper wrote:You still need to know if you have an unsaved Wound first.

FNP creates saved wounds, so logically it makes its attempt before anything that triggers off of an unsaved wound.

nohman wrote:I have literally no idea what you're talking about now. How am I going back in time? You say we don't know if it was an unsaved wound. It BECAME an unsaved wound when you failed your save?! That's whats letting you roll for FNP, and me to roll the Bonesword...

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:
The game is written in English, therefore we need to take the standard definitions of words in English, or else the entire thing breaks down. Here is the definition of "Immediately" as per the Oxford English Disctionary.

We can clearly tell from the listed examples that definition 1 is the most appropriate one here. Possibly 2 as well. 3 relates to physical locations and so is inappropriate, as given by the example.
If you want to argue that this is irrelevant as it is not defined in the rules themselves, then we have a serious problem, as I'll wager 99% of the words in the book are never defined. For example, give me a rules definition of "is".

How this relates to the argument at hand? At once or Instantly means that it was done before any other action. As FNP does not contain that clause, but ES/Boneswords do, then it must logically come after them, or else they were not done "At once; instantly" were they?

Except this is a ruleset and we need these general terms defined within relation to each other if they are to be used for any basis of timing. We are not told where ‘immediately’ falls in the timing of the rules. What comes before ‘immediate’ actions? What comes after? What if 2 immediate actions happen at the same time? We don’t know because this is not a defined mechanic.

nohman wrote:I have literally no idea what you're talking about now. How am I going back in time? You say we don't know if it was an unsaved wound. It BECAME an unsaved wound when you failed your save?! That's whats letting you roll for FNP, and me to roll the Bonesword...

nohman wrote:Ok, if you didn't have an unsaved wound, how did you roll FNP?

DeathReaper wrote:
FNP is not a save, but Wounds are treated as if they were saved. so logically you need to find out if you actually suffer an unsaved Wound, and that involves a FNP roll.

hisdudeness wrote:

nohman wrote:
The game is written in English, therefore we need to take the standard definitions of words in English, or else the entire thing breaks down. Here is the definition of "Immediately" as per the Oxford English Disctionary.

We can clearly tell from the listed examples that definition 1 is the most appropriate one here. Possibly 2 as well. 3 relates to physical locations and so is inappropriate, as given by the example.
If you want to argue that this is irrelevant as it is not defined in the rules themselves, then we have a serious problem, as I'll wager 99% of the words in the book are never defined. For example, give me a rules definition of "is".

How this relates to the argument at hand? At once or Instantly means that it was done before any other action. As FNP does not contain that clause, but ES/Boneswords do, then it must logically come after them, or else they were not done "At once; instantly" were they?

Except this is a ruleset and we need these general terms defined within relation to each other if they are to be used for any basis of timing. We are not told where ‘immediately’ falls in the timing of the rules. What comes before ‘immediate’ actions? What comes after? What if 2 immediate actions happen at the same time? We don’t know because this is not a defined mechanic.

Did you forget text? I'm not following your train of thought.

Sorry, I thought I was being clear. Let me explain.

Page 9 under Exceptions. It says:

BRB Page 9 wrote:Occasionally, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it.

So we have a situation where the same occurrence has triggered two special rules: FNP and BS/ES. FNP tells us that when the unsaved wound is suffered you can try to avoid being wounded. BS/ES tell us that if an unsaved wound is suffered you immediately do something. Like someone posted earlier if you are told when you get a cookie you eat it, and if someone gives you a cookie immediately say "thank you", then you would be given the cookie, say thank you, then eat it. Same thing.

nohman wrote:Ok, then I have a question. What does the "Immediately" mean in ES?

Why is it there, what effect does it have on the timing for the roll?

EDIT: I'm also still waiting on those definitions. I also came across another one. "A". No idea what that refers to, really going to need a page citation as to what that means...

BRB Page 9 wrote:Occasionally, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit, or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need to resolve it.