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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 20:21:18
Subject: Return on investment
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Powerful Irongut
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If the army is decently painted you will break even or maybe make a little money - and if you can get two Australians bidding on your ebay lot then so much the better.
But the truth is GW players are a bunch of cheapskates who want something for nothing. Certainly when compared to the prices for historical figures.
As others have said there are other ways to compare the worth of the hobby other than money.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 00:59:00
Subject: Return on investment
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Hallowed Canoness
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marielle wrote:If the army is decently painted you will break even or maybe make a little money - and if you can get two Australians bidding on your ebay lot then so much the better.
But the truth is GW players are a bunch of cheapskates who want something for nothing. Certainly when compared to the prices for historical figures.
As others have said there are other ways to compare the worth of the hobby other than money.
I must ask... what are the prices ranges for historical models? I've never really looked
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 09:17:57
Subject: Return on investment
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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I play 40k, Warmahordes and MTG, and soon, Dystopian Wars too, and I look at it this way:
I spend maybe £60 a month on gaming stuff, be it minis, cards, paints, modelling supplies or tournament entry fees. That's approximately £15 a week, and I game between two and four times a week. This gaming time costs me nothing, bar the cost of the stuff I use, and any food/drinks I might buy whilst there, which I would need anyway. If I game twice a week, this works out at approximately £7.50 a day. To go to a cinema, or a pub, it would certainly cost significantly more than this, plus I get to play games I enjoy, and interact with people who enjoy the same things. So I'd say the ROI is pretty high, in regards to money over enjoyment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 10:21:35
Subject: Return on investment
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Powerful Irongut
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:marielle wrote:If the army is decently painted you will break even or maybe make a little money - and if you can get two Australians bidding on your ebay lot then so much the better.
But the truth is GW players are a bunch of cheapskates who want something for nothing. Certainly when compared to the prices for historical figures.
As others have said there are other ways to compare the worth of the hobby other than money.
I must ask... what are the prices ranges for historical models? I've never really looked
It depends on the period, the manufacturer etc but for a comparable paint job, you'd be looking at least 3 or 4 times what you'd get for GW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 13:29:43
Subject: Return on investment
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Screaming Banshee
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marielle wrote:KalashnikovMarine wrote:marielle wrote:If the army is decently painted you will break even or maybe make a little money - and if you can get two Australians bidding on your ebay lot then so much the better.
But the truth is GW players are a bunch of cheapskates who want something for nothing. Certainly when compared to the prices for historical figures.
As others have said there are other ways to compare the worth of the hobby other than money.
I must ask... what are the prices ranges for historical models? I've never really looked
It depends on the period, the manufacturer etc but for a comparable paint job, you'd be looking at least 3 or 4 times what you'd get for GW.
Depends on the scale too... 1/72 and 1/76 are cheap as cakes whilst 15mm (Flames of War) is just as big a ripoff as GW... still, at least they let you use your own models.
With regards to 28mm, you definitely want to look into 'largescale' plastic manfuacturers. Perry Miniatures are the biggest 28mm producer I am aware of, but they don't do too much plastic. The most common boxset that Warhammer fans'll take from them is the War of the Roses European Mercenaries boxset, which I see on eBay for about £15; that contains 40 figures...
I'll give a shout out to these chaps too (my VCs would have been dearer without them and LORD FORBID am I buying anymore ugly Mantic skellies), they have a relatively more diverse range and some promise... both historicals and fantasy:
http://wargamesfactory.com/
30 of these chaps for $20:
Likewise 30 WWII Yanks also for $20:
Sprues aren't too dissimilar to GW either:
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/30 13:31:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 14:46:33
Subject: Return on investment
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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Without the person who originally said the quote to further explain what they meant, we don't know what he meant by return or investment when he used those words.
I'm guessing though, that he was talking about enjoyment for the money.
My main issue with 40k and WFB is that the rules actively devalue my purchases. Especially in WFB. A box of cavalry might be great fun to assemble and paint, but when it comes time to putting it on the table, it usually isn't enough miniatures for a viable unit. And then that unit, once I add another box of cav because I have to, contributes relatively little to the game.
Compare that with other games like Warmachine. A box of CAV in that is going to cost a lot more because they are metal, but they are also going to make up a quarter of the models on the field. They're a big deal that will contribute quite a bit to the game.
Same goes for Infinity. Or Malifaux. Or Dystopian Wars.
So for me, return on investment is about enjoyment outside of play (modelling & painting) and then in play. GW is fine on the outside of play stuff, but their return on investment in terms of utility in the game can be really, really poor.
But that's the natural result of them trying to increase model count in the game with every rerelease of rules and codecies. Lowing point costs and increasing the average game size.
No thanks.
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 14:56:15
Subject: Return on investment
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Ambitious Marauder
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Look at Ebay, some people can sell a painted army for a $1,000 and have somebody buy it, I say "life-well spent!"
Besides it's a hobby, what's the fun in having a hobby if you consider it an "investment", that just makes it work.
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Blood for the Blood God! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 16:27:37
Subject: Return on investment
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Exactly that.
If you enjoy the hobby more than the money you spent on it then it's a good "investment".
That of course is a subjective judgement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 16:29:52
Subject: Return on investment
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Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior
The Great White North
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I fell that my money is better spent on WHFB as opposed to 40k.
The amount of money I have spent on both is equal.
However my Return in terms of FUN is much higher with WHFB than 40k.
40k is monotonous and feels either like paint drying or someone clawing at a chalk board for me. I have minimal interest and fun even while actually playing. I find myself talking about WHFB and other games even while im playiing 40k.
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+ + =
+ = Big Lame Mat Ward Lovefest |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 19:24:40
Subject: Return on investment
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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Wargaming has a pretty good ROI for a hobby, even from a financial sense. Most hobbies have a deeply negative ROI. You spend money, the money is rarely, if ever, recouped. GW is interesting in that while some of the value of the item can be "used up," in that a built and painted tactical squad has less value than one on sprue, GW minis don't become obsolete. Meaning, even if you have old, no longer in production minis, they still have value because they can be used, and most of the upgrade in the new minis is aesthetic. So, yeah, compared to investing my money in pork bellies it seems dumb that I only get 40% of what I paid for an army when I sell it. Compared to nearly any other hobby, that's a pretty good ROI, especially since wargaming has few operating costs such as fuel, fees, or repairs. that's ignoring the use value of the army. If I pay $600 for an army, play it 20 times, and sell it for $250, I've bascially paid $17.50 per game. Of course, you also get less tangible utility of painting, buildng, and simply owning the army. It's the same problem that hits homeowners that sell for a loss. They think they've lost money, but rarely include the value of living in the home for the duration. Yes, losing $15,000 on your house sucks, but if you lived there for five years, that's pretty cheap rent.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/30 19:28:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 20:31:32
Subject: Return on investment
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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There's definitley some less tangible benefits and costs as well.
In your house analogy, you'd also need to add your interest costs on the mortgage (including future mortgage interest if you end up upside down). Any utilities and insurance costs beyond what you'd pay if you rented would also need to be added in as well. And the opportunity cost of capital tied up in the house that could have been deployed elsewhere.
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 20:51:04
Subject: Return on investment
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Powerful Irongut
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Henners91 wrote:marielle wrote:KalashnikovMarine wrote:marielle wrote:If the army is decently painted you will break even or maybe make a little money - and if you can get two Australians bidding on your ebay lot then so much the better.
But the truth is GW players are a bunch of cheapskates who want something for nothing. Certainly when compared to the prices for historical figures.
As others have said there are other ways to compare the worth of the hobby other than money.
I must ask... what are the prices ranges for historical models? I've never really looked
It depends on the period, the manufacturer etc but for a comparable paint job, you'd be looking at least 3 or 4 times what you'd get for GW.
Depends on the scale too...
That is what I said.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 21:01:36
Subject: Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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marielle wrote:KalashnikovMarine wrote:marielle wrote:If the army is decently painted you will break even or maybe make a little money - and if you can get two Australians bidding on your ebay lot then so much the better.
But the truth is GW players are a bunch of cheapskates who want something for nothing. Certainly when compared to the prices for historical figures.
As others have said there are other ways to compare the worth of the hobby other than money.
I must ask... what are the prices ranges for historical models? I've never really looked
It depends on the period, the manufacturer etc but for a comparable paint job, you'd be looking at least 3 or 4 times what you'd get for GW.
Really?
The historical stuff i've seen is all way cheaper than GW models. Well mostly, and 'way' isn't really a quantity.
Also, not sure we share the same definition of the word 'cheapskate' as most 40k players I know aren't cheapskates, you can't be if you play 40k.
There is a difference between being a 'cheapskate' and trying to get the best value for the stuff your buying. People have different budgets, are looking for different things etc.
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DC:90-S+G++M--B++I+pW40k08+D++A++/eWD257R++t(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 23:45:55
Subject: Return on investment
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Powerful Irongut
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rodgers37 wrote:Really?
The historical stuff i've seen is all way cheaper than GW models. Well mostly, and 'way' isn't really a quantity.
Also, not sure we share the same definition of the word 'cheapskate' as most 40k players I know aren't cheapskates, you can't be if you play 40k.
There is a difference between being a 'cheapskate' and trying to get the best value for the stuff your buying. People have different budgets, are looking for different things etc.
Indeed, hence my point about manufacturers, periods etc, as this has an impact on the price and the number of people who would be interested in buying the figures.
However, two other factors need to be considered. The first is that a large section of people buying GW figures are not looking for them to be painted, for pretty obvious reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the paintjob. The second factor is supply and demand, the second hand market for GW figures is much larger because the original market is proportionately larger.
As for your point about not being able to be a cheapskate if you play 40k, you underestimate the cost of playing other games.
btw I would be interested to know what these cheaper figures that you have seen were.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 23:47:25
Subject: Return on investment
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Brigadier General
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I don't agree with the person who the OP is referring to, but I completely understand them.
Folks here are including "time spent" as part of the ROI for hobbying, but that's completely irrelevant if the person doesn't view time spent as part of the equation.
Clearly this person looks at time enjoyed in the hobby as a constant, but in their value system, they want to be able to have a hobby where they can get their money back in full for all the expenses they put into the hobby and then have the option to move to another hobby. I think that's the way many people view hobbies, whether or not they are successful in getting a full ROI.
Some people can get full ROI (without taking time into consideration). They might be...
- blessed with either the ability to find the right deals and flip models to pay for the models they want.
-excellent painters whose paint jobs actually increase the value of their models (more than the cost of paint and brushes) and when they want a new army they just sell the old.
Most can't. I've been pretty canny with my hobby to the point where I probably pay for 60 cents of every dollar with profit from the hobby, but that's not close to breaking even. However, that's not how I measure my enjoyment of the hobby, so it doesn't matter!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/31 02:42:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/30 23:48:20
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Fixture of Dakka
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The return for me is putting the stuff together, painting it, building lists, playing with the stuff, then trading/selling it off to someone else who can enjoy it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 08:41:26
Subject: Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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marielle wrote:
btw I would be interested to know what these cheaper figures that you have seen were.
Go into a shop that sells miniatures, pretty much all the historical stuff is cheaper. I've bought stuff in the past as well.
And as to cost of other games, I'm not stupid, I'm not making wild guesses. And even if I hadn't looked into various games myself, you only need to see the thread on Dakka about alternate games, designed partly because of the cost of collecting a GW army.
As for paints, well I personally don't care about buying painted stuff. Why would I want to buy something painted by someone else? If its a poor to average paint job I will need to re do it, and of its a very good paint job it will cost a lot more than the cost of the models.
Amnofncourse there will be some stuff that's more expensive, but in general the 'average' historical stuff I see in shops or I may have looked at online isn't that expensive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/31 08:46:08
DC:90-S+G++M--B++I+pW40k08+D++A++/eWD257R++t(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 13:17:27
Subject: Return on investment
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Brigadier General
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rodgers37 wrote:marielle wrote:
btw I would be interested to know what these cheaper figures that you have seen were.
Go into a shop that sells miniatures, pretty much all the historical stuff is cheaper.
Historical figures tend to be quite a bit cheaper. Whether in plastic (Perry, Warlord, Wargames factory, etc) or metal TAG, Historifigs, etc, etc. historical figures tend to be about half the cost or less of comparable 40k "line" figures, and when you compare the price of historical officers and other specialty figures to GW charachters the difference can be even greater. Not to say that there aren't a few really high priced historical lines, but even they tend to be less than comparable GW.
However, Marielle is right that there's much more profit to be made in painting Historical figures if you have a good reputation. The figures are bought cheaper, and if the painting is good (and the painter has a good reputation, which can be important to the historical figure collector) they can be sold for as much or more than comparable 40k figures. Also, the market for historical painted figures doesn't change based on the vagaries of army popularity, codex creep or edition change.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 14:28:04
Subject: Return on investment
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Historical figures are about 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost of comparable GW models.
A plastic infantry man will be about 30 or 40p, compared to £1 to £1.50 for GW infantry.
Metal figures are about £1.00 to £1.50 compared to £2.50 for GW. (Of course GW don't make metal any more, but it's the same price for Finecast.)
I'm comparing Perry and Wargames Foundry models with GW since they are a similar level of quality and detail.
Of course you usually need more models for a historical army, so the price balances out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 17:17:50
Subject: Return on investment
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Screaming Shining Spear
Central Coast, California USA
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hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, My dad asked me how much i have in this hobby. I replied about 5000$ from the last 6-7 years.
HE then went on to say that is why i dont have a car, or i culd sell my army for a car.
HE berrated me for spending money on something i enjoyed(despite the fact he is in the process of buying a 3rd car, he likes cars)
Ouch. That sucks that he berrated you for that. Coming from a father with his own 18 year old son, I wouldn't have done that, but I'm uber cool if I do say so myself. I'm uber cool.
Facts are if you didn't spend a cent on GW you'd have a used car, but only after 7 years of saving. So no miniatures (or the fun and friends garnered by it) for 7 years = 1 used car after 7 years. Logica? No. Sorry. The easy math on 5K in 7 years is about $700 per year, which is about $65 a month, which is a little less than any car payment I've ever seen. There may be other factors as to why you don't have a car, but I'm stopping right here.
Have fun my man, and don't let the man get you down.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/31 17:22:01
THE FUN HAS BEEN DOUBLED!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 17:36:08
Subject: Return on investment
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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I make about 200-300 a month from the job i have only had for a year. Most of the models i got are presents or i scrimped and saved, and i included paint in there. The only reason he said that is because he backed out from buying me my own car(which he promised, because his secnd one blew an engine) But back on topic, really, how can you return an investment and still enjoy, you cant enjoy your collection if you sell it. so all that enjoyment=money for what? another collection.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/31 17:36:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 17:47:51
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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snooggums wrote:If I expect to get my money back, it is a 'job'.
That sums it up nicely!
My other hobby is cars I like to tinker with them and drive them pretty hard, I certainly don't get any money back on them and the amount of petrol I use is higher than average. Do I enjoy it YES can you put a price on joy?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 18:05:40
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Screaming Shining Spear
Central Coast, California USA
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My stab at this is this. The 20's and 40s that I've shelled out over the last 21 years has gotten me some great memories, some really great friends, it's relaxed me when I was stressed, and provided me an escape when I felt I needed it. I can say I've still got about 80% of everything I have ever purchased and if I were to buy everything I own this very day I'd probably spend 3x as much on it all. I can literally not spend another cent, and paint two miniatures a day and still have stuff to paint 8 months from now. My painting skills get better and better, I get faster and faster at turning them out. It is a genuine joy to play, paint, and be here to talk about it.
Return on my investment. I got it in spades.
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THE FUN HAS BEEN DOUBLED!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/31 19:37:43
Subject: Return on investment
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Brigadier General
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Kilkrazy wrote:Historical figures are about 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost of comparable GW models.
A plastic infantry man will be about 30 or 40p, compared to £1 to £1.50 for GW infantry.
Metal figures are about £1.00 to £1.50 compared to £2.50 for GW. (Of course GW don't make metal any more, but it's the same price for Finecast.)
I'm comparing Perry and Wargames Foundry models with GW since they are a similar level of quality and detail.
Of course you usually need more models for a historical army, so the price balances out.
Good comparison. However, even with the increased number of models, I think that with the new plastic kits (and likely a few metal models) most historical armies are considerably less expensive than a 40k army. Of course it's all relative depending on what size game you play and which rules you use, but I think I recall seeing some army lists for games like Hail Caesar and they were significantly cheaper than GW armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/01 02:03:17
Subject: Return on investment
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Posts with Authority
I'm from the future. The future of space
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Historicals can be much, much less than GW. In very, very few cases it can be more, but then the model count will be way, way higher.
I put together a Lasalle army from Victrix Napoleonics and with all the options I wanted, I was at close to 400 miniatures, but still no where near what a Warhammer Army would cost. 22 for 52 miniatures will do that.
Now take a skirmish game like Warlord Games WW2 rules and you can have a complete game for a tenth of what warhammer will cost you.
Fantasy skirmishing can be just as cheap.
GW goes for high model count and high price per miniature.
Privateer goes for medium model count and high price per miniature.
Infinity/CB goes for low model count and high price per miniature.
Mantic goes for high model count and medium low price per miniature.
Most historicals are low price per miniature and then you find the rules set with the model count you like.
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Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. |
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