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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 01:00:15
Subject: Return on investment
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Hallowed Canoness
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So I was talking 40k with a friend today and had a kinda interesting conversation. Now he's got a pretty big Ultrasmurfs army and has actively gotten other people around us to play, or think about playing, keeps up on the knowledge and is generally labeled as one of my gaming friends. He said something kinda odd today though, he cut off me off and said "I don't think I like Warhammer as much as you, I prefer hobbies that give me a return on my investment and Warhammer just doesn't do that." For one this sparked some minor outrage in our friend who was right there, she basically her 1000 point Ork army at his urgings and left me slightly confused.
Do you feel the hobby has or has not "returned on your investment"?
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 01:06:02
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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If I expect to get my money back, it is a 'job'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 01:14:28
Subject: Return on investment
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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IMO you play the game spend the time painting and playing the game to "escape" the real world. I can work and make money I can enjoy 40k to enjoy my time
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15 successful trades !! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 01:14:35
Subject: Return on investment
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Whats the worth of making friends where you had none before?
In short yes, I feel i have in other way other of money. First it gives me something to spend my money on rather then have it dwindle away at places like clubs or things along that line.
And it forced me to learn social skills.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 01:19:01
Subject: Return on investment
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Widowmaker
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It's not an investment. I'm never going to sell my minis at a profit to pay for my kids college fund or anything like that.
It's entertainment. For all game systems in total.... I figure I've gotten more than my money's worth over the years. If it wasn't worth the money in some way shape or form, I would never had spent it.
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2012- stopped caring
Nova Open 2011- Orks 8th Seed---(I see a trend)
Adepticon 2011- Mike H. Orks 8th Seed (This was the WTF list of the Final 16)
Adepticon 2011- Combat Patrol Best General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 01:28:30
Subject: Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Return on investment doesn't always mean a cash return. How much enjoyment you get from the money you invest is a valid ROI comparison.
Games are often evaluated for their replay value. Hobbies are looked at in the same way - and every one is a bit different. Some people don't care too much for certain methods of game play, and after one or two games...they get bored as it ends up being the same thing over and over again. If they don't like the modeling aspect that much - that has to be included on the investment side as well as opposed to the return side of the equation.
Nothing to get bent out of shape about, just people are different. Some people like other things more. It doesn't even mean that he is going to quit 40K or doesn't like it. It just means he doesn't think he likes it as much as you do.
For me, Gamesworkshop no longer provides a good return on the investment. It isn't that I don't like the modeling. It isn't even so much that the rules are bad. I don't even get too caught up on the cost (though parts of the cost are a factor) as many of the games I feel give a greater ROI have higher costs per figure than GW does on average. However, the company themselves have ruined the game for me. Their policies suck the fun out of it. They make it hard for me to recommend anything from them to others.
I still game, I still paint, I still model and build terrain. I just don't get a good value from GW - and a large part of that value is sapped away by the policies they implement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 02:01:54
Subject: Return on investment
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Sean_OBrien wrote:Return on investment doesn't always mean a cash return. How much enjoyment you get from the money you invest is a valid ROI comparison.
In the context of the first post, ROI did not appear to be used as a reference to enjoyment unless the person uses some kind of weird out of context financial terms to mean other things on a regular basis.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 02:18:59
Subject: Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I deal with accountants daily - I hear them use financial terms to relate all manner of things...so, it doesn't seem that odd to me. With it being just a single sentence though, there isn't enough context to determine if it is monetary or some other return. However it isn't uncommon way to measure hobbies as well - especially with the large number of people getting that sort of formal education now (and liking to throw terms into day to day conversation).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 02:23:51
Subject: Return on investment
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Hallowed Canoness
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Sean_OBrien wrote:
Nothing to get bent out of shape about, just people are different. Some people like other things more. It doesn't even mean that he is going to quit 40K or doesn't like it. It just means he doesn't think he likes it as much as you do.
I'm not particularly bent out of shape, I am confused about why you'd do something to the point of collecting a decent size army of figures when you're not having fun though/getting the "return" you want on the investment of your time and money. So I figured it'd be worth having a conversation about and seeing if other players agree with that sentiment for one reason or another and why. As you said we're all different and getting a peek at the thought process of others was what motivated this particular thread.
snooggums wrote:Sean_OBrien wrote:Return on investment doesn't always mean a cash return. How much enjoyment you get from the money you invest is a valid ROI comparison.
In the context of the first post, ROI did not appear to be used as a reference to enjoyment unless the person uses some kind of weird out of context financial terms to mean other things on a regular basis.
Not that I've noticed, it seemed very... technical
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 02:56:00
Subject: Return on investment
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Novice Knight Errant Pilot
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I've been 'investing' in warhamer long enough that the oldest segments of my armies are just about ready to graduate rom high school. I've never looked bac on any of it and said, "I wasted my money" and I've met lots of great people and gone to places an done things I otherwise wouldn't have, so I'd say I got an excellent retrn on my investment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 03:14:57
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Return on investment can mean a couple of things;
1. The money paid for the models isn't worth the amount of enjoyment you could get out of them versus something else. Eg. Paying $60 for a video game you beat in 8 hours versus $60 for a unit of terminators that take 6 hours to assemble and paint, and then you play with dozens or hundreds of times. The ROI on the terminators would be better.
2. When selling the models, you are unable to get much for them. This is pretty much true. Assemble and painted models are typically worth half to a third of what they retail for unless they are painted to an outstanding standard. If they are painted that well, you can bet there was a massive time investment that would mean it would be financially poor compared to even a minimum wage job.
Pretty much everyone needs a hobby of some sort, and depending on your financial situation and personal desires, they can run the gamble from massive money pit to generating income. If you are doing something you enjoy though, your time isn't really worth much to you, as you are having fun.
-My Grandfather makes furniture in his spare time and sells it. He ends up with more money then he started with, but I'd wager he doesn't make much money for the time spent to do the work.
- My brothers like to go dirt biking. They have $3000 dollar bikes and another $1000 in gear. Each day trip likely costs them another 60-70 dollars in fuel (for their trucks as well, you have to get the trails) and probably a few hundred dollars averaged out across the year in repairs. So the initial investment for equipment was large, each trip is only $50-75, and they can expect to sell their bikes and gear for 80-100% of what they paid for them.
- My dad likes to snowmobile. He gets a new snowmobile every couple of years and sells his old one for ~50-75% of what he paid for it. This works out to thousands of dollars a year for a few days of riding. It's a large investment and a large upkeep, and each trip he goes on is expensive (hundreds if not thousands of dollars).
- One of my friends runs a couple of small businesses as his "hobby" and makes a few thousand dollars a year for almost no investment repairing computers and running a hosting company. This doesn't really strike me as fun, and he does it mainly because he needs the money to finance his 3 kids. His other hobbys are super cheap in comparison to most other people.
- Some of my coworkers are basically....drunks. They spend all their free time getting drunk/high and partying. Obviously the return on investment here is zero...and a damaged liver.
- I play warhammer and computer games. Through second hand purchases, ebay, discounts from purchasing online and other cost saving methods I can get dozens or hundreds of hours of entertainment a month for ~$50. It obviously doesn't make any money, and odds are if I were to quit warhammer the several thousand dollars I've spend over the last 14 years would likely be "wasted", but I pay a little bit now and then to have fun.
It comes down to your financial situation and what your time is worth to you. If I wanted a good return on my time investment, I'd work more or get a second job, but every waking minute of every day cannot be spent working, you have to do things you enjoy as well. Most people are wiling to pay to enjoy themselves, and it's all a matter of how much you are willing and able to spend.
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Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!
See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 05:05:43
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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As above.
IMO, this great miniature hobby of ours is a luxury item. It's not going to get you a financial ROI, but instead a 'feel-good' ROI.
If someone wanted to negate the financial loss from the luxury item, better off learning how to leverage your money (so it works for YOU, rather than you working 2 or 3 jobs) and have it essentially pay for the hobby.
That's what i do
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 05:17:25
Subject: Return on investment
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Yeah, My dad asked me how much i have in this hobby. I replied about 5000$ from the last 6-7 years.
HE then went on to say that is why i dont have a car, or i culd sell my army for a car.
HE berrated me for spending money on something i enjoyed(despite the fact he is in the process of buying a 3rd car, he likes cars)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 05:17:36
Subject: Return on investment
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Kabalite Conscript
Phoenix, AZ
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:So I was talking 40k with a friend today and had a kinda interesting conversation. Now he's got a pretty big Ultrasmurfs army and has actively gotten other people around us to play, or think about playing, keeps up on the knowledge and is generally labeled as one of my gaming friends. He said something kinda odd today though, he cut off me off and said "I don't think I like Warhammer as much as you, I prefer hobbies that give me a return on my investment and Warhammer just doesn't do that." For one this sparked some minor outrage in our friend who was right there, she basically her 1000 point Ork army at his urgings and left me slightly confused.
Do you feel the hobby has or has not "returned on your investment"?
The only "return on investment" I consider is "do I get enough enjoyment from this?"; hobbies aren't supposed to make money.
TANGENT: Are you the same KM from Terminal Lance?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 05:37:40
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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Yeah, My dad asked me how much i have in this hobby. I replied about 5000$ from the last 6-7 years.
HE then went on to say that is why i dont have a car, or i culd sell my army for a car.
HE berrated me for spending money on something i enjoyed(despite the fact he is in the process of buying a 3rd car, he likes cars)
Not to derail the thread (last post on this i promise!!)
But yes, unless he's flipping cars (buying, fixing, then flipping them for sale) then he's buying a 'luxury item' as well. Exactly the same as your minis just on a larger scale.
Up your financial IQ, then when your passive income is funding not only your hobby but perhaps even buying HIM his cars for a b'day present... you can spend your days painting and gaming while the money rolls in day after day.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 05:43:47
Subject: Return on investment
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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I didnt understand the last line about the ork army it looked like parts of the text were missing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 06:30:45
Subject: Return on investment
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Anti-Armour Swiss Guard
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It "returns on an investment" on the time I spend on it in terms of the social aspect of gaming.
Purely as a financial return vis-a-vis fine wines or other commodities? Not a chance in hell. You'd have had better luck with the "dot com boom".
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I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 08:12:12
Subject: Return on investment
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Lord of the Fleet
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If we're alking ROI in terms of money then Warhammer is a horrible investment. In fact all hobbies (except certain types of collecting if you're good at it) are huge moneypits.
If we're talking amount of enjoyable hobby time returned for your investment then Warhammer does pretty well. A few hundred pounds for an army that will last you several years is pretty good. Add in that it doesn't cost you anything to play the game (maybe a little travelling) and it's even better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 08:30:17
Subject: Return on investment
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Infiltrating Naga
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I can understand the frustration from the ork player. I have also gotten things under the premises as taking part of something to do with friends and then after money was spent have them start to distance themselves from the subject at hand making it ever so more and more apparent that in all likelihood I'd just wasted whatever money I had put into play said game with someone.
Thankfully GW albeit was actually that, my own enjoyment of the game spurred me to simply find other people.
As far as ROI?
Once I put the initial money down I neither need to subscribe or upgrade my models on a by-monthly basis unlike things such as competitive MTG play which forces you in and out of card sets whether you like it or not.
And once I have my models I know that I do not need to put any more money into them unless I willingly want to expand or update.
I actually spend more time painting and modelling then I do gaming xD either painting for friends or myself (still have an entire Dark eldar army to do) infact I've never actually used my dark eldar yet and I would say I have gained enough back to validate them merely by the chatting, painting and modelling and thats without even playing them on a tabletop yet!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 14:39:26
Subject: Return on investment
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge
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The amount of money I've spent on wargaming (and 40k in particular) has brought me enough entertainment value and fun to make it worth it. While the $40ish I spend on a squad for my Marines is a bit steep, that's another 10 hours of painting (which I enjoy immensely) and then I can use them in every game I play afterwards. If I wasn't gaming I don't think I could justify the money-fun investment as much, since I do get a lot of fun from the game itself, but I think it's a very good investment for that purpose if gaming is what you're into.
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Check out my Youtube channel!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 14:44:11
Subject: Return on investment
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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dunno if its been said before, but IMHO its as much as an investment as an xbox or playstation is.... so very little (unless you get some LE version and wait 40 years lol!)
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I have half a mind to kill you, and the other half agrees |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 14:51:09
Subject: Return on investment
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Screaming Banshee
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I like to think that some of my armies might make back their purchase cost... but factor in time spent and the costs of equipment and consumables and you'd be lucky to break even...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 14:57:47
Subject: Return on investment
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Im trying to think of a hobby that can return your investment immediatly, Fixing cars maybe, Hunting. Not collecting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 15:06:26
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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To be honest, part of the hobby for me is buying and selling... As I worked at a Internet Cafe, that was also a 'gaming centre'/ FLGS I got a very decent discount of my 40k, while working there (for my step-dad, double discount  ). But i'm a serial buyer, I don't just do it with 40k. I I only need to look up at my DVD collection and see how many 2 for £10 DVDs i've bought in HMV...
From memory i've had and sold:
A very large CSM army (like 6000+ points, plus a bought from ebay scratch built titan and a converted (by me) Baneblade variant)
1500 points of Eldar
1000 points of Chaos Daemons
1000 points of Eldar
2-3000 point SW army
1500-2000 point Space Marine army
Few Tau units.
Couple small boxes of Epic.
1750-2000 point DE army.
Some Nids.
Now i've got a decent sized CSM army, not exactly sure on points but plenty of vehicles and lots of infantry, few special characters, 3 Dreads. Definitely not going to sell that, the only thing I regret selling out of the above list is my CSM army. And i've got 1750-2000 points of Nids. Loads of LOTR (never bothered selling that, even though no one will play with me) and a few other bits and bobs. I don't paint much, never enjoyed it until recently. And now i'm just a really really slow painter. I've only been able to spend so much because during sixth form I was getting a bit of money from work, and a bit of EMA money, and had little else to spend it on, and am rubbish at saving. And then selling funds more buying etc, at Uni i've probably spent more money on 40k than I should have, again been rubbish at saving. And now i've got a part time job on top of Uni (hopefully can get a store transfer for when I go back down to Uni...).
I don't set out to get a return on my investment. Its not a job, its not like i'm buying cars and doing them up. To actually even just about break even, you'd have to have a really well painted army. Breaking even has to include your labour and stuff used. The 'return of investment' in a cheesy kind of way, is the playing, having fun, winning tournaments if your into that, if your a hobbiest, painting/modelling your stuff nicely. Most hobbies aren't for finical gain, to be honest without thinking too broadly 40k/miniature wargaming may be one of the best hobbies for getting a decent chunk of money back if you do want to stop. If you play or watch sport, no way your getting any financial return on that. If you playing computer games, same (unless your a goal farmer on a MMO, or have some rare stuff), etc...
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DC:90-S+G++M--B++I+pW40k08+D++A++/eWD257R++t(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 15:27:25
Subject: Return on investment
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
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The game is an investment only if you cheerish your games ,friends you meet, enjoy your paints/conversions, etc...if your looking for a return monetary wise for your gaming hobby then you might should go find a new hobby. You have to be willing to eat a bullet from time to time and take a loss when you buy models in this hobby. Im sorry but you cant collect a crap load of models and put them together poorly or paint them sloppy and expect to even break even....most times the paint you painted the model wont even match the next guys army so you have to sell for less to make any kind of "return" and its not a profit.
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Click the images to see my armies!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 15:48:31
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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snooggums wrote:If I expect to get my money back, it is a 'job'.
I have to agree with that.
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3500 pts Black Legion
3500 pts Iron Warriors
2500 pts World Eaters
1950 pts Emperor's Children
333 pts Daemonhunters
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 16:15:02
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I actually had the same thoughts and I ended up giving it all up. Got rid of everything I had, except a couple of C3 forces. This was because I love the models and whole background.
My turning away from tabletop gaming started after I had worked for GW. Once you have built a 2000pt army for £35 I was never going to want to pay the retail price ever again. The next step down the road to giving up was realising the amount of time it took to get a force together, even on a good day without any interuptions I could only manage to get a 10 man SM squad up together. By a good day I mean 8 - 10 hours and how many times do you get that much time to yourself? For the short term I got around this by going to skirmish level games, but this failed in the end because every other month a new system became the new game to play at the club. So I did the math, which I had one club night a week that I went to and I had the following systems: 40k, Warhammer, BFG, War Machine, Confrontation, Urban War, Infinity, Pirates game, Malifaux, and PBI, FoW, AVBCW and Rules of Engagement
This meant I had to understand 13 rule systems, which I could just about do, but meant I'd always just be an average player. In an ideal world once a week meant 51 sessions a year. Well we all know that's not the case. From this you'd lose days where you're away on holiday, you can't get a game, you're ill, your opponent drops out or just too tired to get there. So that drops the number down a big chunk. So one day I just imploded, I just thought this is crazy, all the time and money I put into this what do I have to show for it? A big bunch of models that just sit on a shelf.
In fairness though the underlying issue for is that I'm in a job that I'm not fussed about and all I want to do when I come home is do something that I enjoy and that could help me get a job doing something I do enjoy. This means I come home and spend time getting my 3d skills upto scratch, building websites, working on my photography skills. All these to me are a better investment in time & money as I hope to improve my job satisfaction and get a better paid job. If I manage to make that next step forward and get the balance of work satisfaction and salary sorted I will probably go back to doing a hobby that is just about enjoying yourself (or if I win big on the Euro!!). Until then I can understand why someone will look at the hobby and wonder about the "investment return" of the hobby.
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Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.
Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor
I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design
www.wulfstandesign.co.uk
http://www.voodoovegas.com/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 17:02:18
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@Wolfstan
I like the way you wrote your comment here on this forum. You took the time and effort to explain your situation on your comments.
You are thinking the right way in investing your time and money to improve your way of life. A wise move in all aspects.
Thanks for sharing that.
Adam.
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Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-
"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".
Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 17:26:41
Subject: Re:Return on investment
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Return on investment for GW... not so much. A great value for your hobby dollar... yes. I get endless hours of enjoyment form all my GW stuff. If you are calculating ROI with just money, forget about it. If you are counting the fun and creative hobby time you get from it I think it's still one of the best values. If I add up all the hours I have spent on GW as a modeler, painter, and player I am at less than a dollar an hour... what other activity generates the same amount of fun for that amount of investment? Even just going to see a movie costs 5 bucks and hour not counting snacks... and when the movie is over you don't have a collection of cool models that you built and painted!
But yeah, if you feel that you are throwing money down a hole with anything then stop doing it.
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7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons
5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/29 17:46:22
Subject: Return on investment
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I think miniatures wargaming is one of the better ROI hobbies in terms of hours of entertainment per dollar. If you compare to stuff like golf, skiing, mountain bike riding, snowmobiling, or many other hobbies adults participate in, this is really pretty cheap. Even at GW prices!
If you're talking literal monetary return on investment, you're really getting outside the traditional definition of a hobby, which is normally something you do on the side for relaxation and entertainment, not as a second job.
Now, it's possible to have a hobby which DOES supplement your income. My brother plays a lot of poker. I've known guys who are excellent painters who paint armies on commission, and/or sell every (or nearly every) army they build online after it's finished and they get bored of playing it. But those are really the exception, rather than the rule.
Depending on your financial situation, it can be worth considering how much you spend on your hobby and whether the expenditures are worth it. Especially if you're one of us who buys a lot more kits than they actually use & get painted. It can be a bit of a money sink if you buy everything that looks cool/you think you MIGHT use but don't actually get around to. A lot of gamers occasionally take stock of the unpainted plastic/unopened kits they have in the closet and liquidate them if they can't see when they would ever get around to using/painting them.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
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