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broodstar wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:I see the similarity, but it's more likely that the Hive Mind is not an immaterial God, but rather just thale will of trillions of organisms that do not have emotions. Its power just bleeds off the organisms it is a part of, nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the Codex says that not all Tyranids are mindless, granted the guants and rippers are but, the Synapse creatures are really intelligent.

Intelligent may be , but they havent he "gift" of choosing actions.Ever seen a Synapse geting away of the Hive Mind?
btw thats the ONLY diference beteen humans and animals.We can choose what action to take,even if it can harm us or maybe is pointless.Animals will follow only their deepest feeling

broodstar wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Hunger isn't an emotion, it's a biological sensation.

IDK, do you suddenly crave cake after the mention of it?

Except that isn't how the Tyranids hunger, they simply hunger to add biomass. They don't care about taste, texture, difficulty in consuming it, or its level of sentience. It isn't a desire for food, it is purely a physical need for it.

DeffDred wrote:Ants have a written language.

Eh, source please?

DeffDred wrote:Ants have a written language.

Tyranids don't. Ants are more intelligent than Tyranids.

What's that say about Ultramarines when the Tyranids outsmart them?

Kovnik Obama wrote:

well language no, all animals posses language. the complexity of the languages expands with social behavior.

Philosophy of language distinguishes between animal communication and language, based on the fact that we have conceptual capacities with our language. It's the symbolic capacity of our communication which makes ours 'language' and other's just communication.

What is the spoken language but an organized series of sounds to convey an idea?... The Chimpanzee's speech is so complex that Biologists have even identified a specific sound for snake.
What is the writen language but an organized series of symbols to convey an idea? ... The Ant leaving a pheromone trail to a carcass is really the same as hanging a sign that reads "this way to the cafeteria"

No matter how much you don't like it, you are an animal. You came from the same planet they came from, you are a more complex organism but when you boil it all down the functions you are doing is no different than that of the basic organisms. Why do humans feel the need to be separate?

broodstar wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote: Ward is probably reading this,maybe we will have Nurgle's lictor which can' simulate corpses...

Venomthropes of Nurgle
Genestealers of Korne
Zoanthropes of Tzeentch
Hive Tyrant of Slaanesh

Funny- but imagine power of that creatures

Pada wrote:

broodstar wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:I see the similarity, but it's more likely that the Hive Mind is not an immaterial God, but rather just thale will of trillions of organisms that do not have emotions. Its power just bleeds off the organisms it is a part of, nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the Codex says that not all Tyranids are mindless, granted the guants and rippers are but, the Synapse creatures are really intelligent.

Intelligent may be , but they havent he "gift" of choosing actions.Ever seen a Synapse geting away of the Hive Mind?
btw thats the ONLY diference beteen humans and animals.We can choose what action to take,even if it can harm us or maybe is pointless.Animals will follow only their deepest feeling

You're wrong again. While the Hive Mind does press them to a goal, they retain the independance to decide how that goal is carried out.

Tyranids don't have any emotions. There's no hate or joy or anything in what they do. So no, really can't make Daemons. Especially since I don't think they're even connected to the warp, hive tyrants and zoanthropes and what not draw from the Hive Mind for their psychic powers.

Their "intelligence" itself is disputable. Are ants intelligent for knowing how to build elaborate colonies or walking in straight lines. Honey Bees will swarm larger hornets and as one flap their wings to cook the larger insect alive, is this "intelligence"? Tyranids aren't sentient, and even a Hive Tyrant who is capable of brilliant tactical maneuvers is probably only at the same level as those honeybees, which also acted clever.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Ants have a written language.

Eh, source please?

National Geographic.

Ants "write" using 3 different pheremones from 3 different "pens" on their body.

2 on the end of the body. 1 in the mouth.

It is hoped that in the future exterminators will "write" "Do not enter" around peoples homes rather than placing poison.

It's the same issue where the Science community finally claimed that an ant colony is a single creature with many parts.

The Tyranid "language" probably refers to the strange alien symbols that Astropaths who have gone insane start scrawling everywhere during the Shadow in the Warp. Also the jibberish that they start screaming.

This could just be their interpretation of the Tyranids though, rather then something the Tyranids have.

Harriticus wrote:Tyranids don't have any emotions. There's no hate or joy or anything in what they do. So no, really can't make Daemons. Especially since I don't think they're even connected to the warp, hive tyrants and zoanthropes and what not draw from the Hive Mind for their psychic powers.

Their "intelligence" itself is disputable. Are ants intelligent for knowing how to build elaborate colonies or walking in straight lines. Honey Bees will swarm larger hornets and as one flap their wings to cook the larger insect alive, is this "intelligence"? Tyranids aren't sentient, and even a Hive Tyrant who is capable of brilliant tactical maneuvers is probably only at the same level as those honeybees, which also acted clever.

It is evident that their nickname as bug has done real harm to the way people preceive them, and that people comment on them without even knowing the basics of their lore. These are not just animals, they are much more.

First thing you got wrong: Zoanthrope pull their power from the warp...read the Zoanthrope page.

Well, even though the codex says the Tyrant ability to learn from it's mistakes and is self-aware. That in fact the Tyranids ARE sentients you just really have to look for your evidence because they are so alien, most of the way they operate takes place in ways the Imperium doesn't understand and it can be argued that the Imperium truly know them, but I'll play your little game.

To use your Bees example: Did they not outwit the larger, more powerful Hornet in order to defeat it? A Terminite dwarfs an Ant. Do 10 Ants not coordinate an assault to overcome the mass of the Termite? Do the Ants not demonstate squad level tactics? Does your dog not show the capacity to learn when you teach it to hunt? Dismissing something as merely "acting clever" is just blurring the great act you just witnessed.

DeffDred wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Ants have a written language.

Eh, source please?

National Geographic.

Ants "write" using 3 different pheremones from 3 different "pens" on their body.

2 on the end of the body. 1 in the mouth.

It is hoped that in the future exterminators will "write" "Do not enter" around peoples homes rather than placing poison.

It's the same issue where the Science community finally claimed that an ant colony is a single creature with many parts.

That's more of a metaphor so that the average guy can understand pheromones, not fact. But don't Lictors use pheromones to act as signal beacons for the swarm? So I guess Tyranids can read and write as well. And that theory of a hive being a single creature is more of a general consensus (There's no good way of proving it, but it's a rock-solid theory) that certain hive-based insects (ants, bees, and the like) are all following the exact same directions from one collective conscious, referred to as swarm intelligence, or the "Hive Mind". These minds are then led by a select few fertile "Queen" insects (Norn Queens) and enforced by a larger, but still elite number of soldiers(Synapse creatures), and finally followed by huge amounts of workers(Gaunts). When you look at it, the Tyranids really aren't very original at all. But I still love them.

Hunchkrot wrote:
That's more of a metaphor so that the average guy can understand pheromones, not fact. But don't Lictors use pheromones to act as signal beacons for the swarm? So I guess Tyranids can read and write as well. And that theory of a hive being a single creature is more of a general consensus (There's no good way of proving it, but it's a rock-solid theory) that certain hive-based insects (ants, bees, and the like) are all following the exact same directions from one collective conscious, referred to as swarm intelligence, or the "Hive Mind". These minds are then led by a select few fertile "Queen" insects (Norn Queens) and enforced by a larger, but still elite number of soldiers(Synapse creatures), and finally followed by huge amounts of workers(Gaunts). When you look at it, the Tyranids really aren't very original at all. But I still love them.

Well there is actually: Ants have 15 chemical messages anywhere from "follow me" to "man down", the Ant smell that signal and then rebroadcasts it like a Twitter feed. What you do is artificually introduce a signal like "enemy sighted" or "man down" and get an otherwise calm colony to go to war.

Here's my question if swarm intelligence was proven, would you count hive-based insects as a sentient?

Tyranids already have a God, it's the Deciever....or at least it was... :(

ZombieJoe wrote:Tyranids already have a God, it's the Deciever....or at least it was... :(

What book was that in?

I think when it comes to arguing if a creature or group thereof is sentient, its pretty important to understand exactly what sentient means. Which is an issue because the scientific community hasn't really settled on what that is.

I think the bottom line about tyranids is that the way they function is meant to be utterly alien from any other race. As humans conceiving of science fantasy it's probably beyond us to imagine fully what that's like, any more so than it's possible for us to imagine what it's like to know the thoughts of any other species, of this earth or otherwise. It then becomes almost, if not impossible to remove human bias when judging if another creature has emotions or intellect in a way that we can truly classify. Therefore, I am happy to accept a certain unknowability about that aspect of them, and for me it makes them the most intriguing race in the 40k universe, because the prospect of directing a force of gribbly alien horror at much more humanised opposition is great fun.

As for tyranid daemons, I'm going to go with a resounding no. The opening bit about them in the codex states fairly explicitly that they are not motivated by any human type emotions, just a biological imperative to make more of themselves, using biomass supplied by other races. This leaves little room for indulgence, rage or greed, hatred etc. I can see how those tyranid creatures cut off from the hive mind might have something akin to fear or survival instinct that might translate into a similar way, but without that communal mind to magnify it, they probably contribute no more to the roiling emotional landscape of the warp than a cow or a sheep.

That's more of a metaphor so that the average guy can understand pheromones, not fact. But don't Lictors use pheromones to act as signal beacons for the swarm? So I guess Tyranids can read and write as well. And that theory of a hive being a single creature is more of a general consensus

It's not a metaphor.

Ants WRITE specific "glyphs/runes/alphanumerics" whatever you want to call them on the ground. Swooping patters with one type of pheremone means one thing while a jagged pattern with the same pheremone means something different. Body language also can be aplied usually as a means to say "this direction" or "difficult journey".

The hive mind is no longer "general consensus". It is concidered fact as of the very issue of National Geographic I was refering to.

Of course Tyranids can read and write... genestealer cults anyone?

Here's my question if swarm intelligence was proven, would you count hive-based insects as a sentient?

I would. Ants harvest food, develop land, breed livestock and created massive structures through teamwork and planning.

Their "intelligence" itself is disputable. Are ants intelligent for knowing how to build elaborate colonies or walking in straight lines. Honey Bees will swarm larger hornets and as one flap their wings to cook the larger insect alive, is this "intelligence"?

Ants build colonies more efficiently than man. They also don't walk in straight lines... they walk along the best path. Computers are designed using ant pathways and problem solving.

You confused the bees vs hornet. Those are a specific bee. And they flap their wings to cool the hive... they vibrate their bodies in a mass to create the heat to kill the hornet.

However before killing the hornet they all dance together as one, until every bee is ready to strike.

No matter how much you don't like it, you are an animal. You came from the same planet they came from, you are a more complex organism but when you boil it all down the functions you are doing is no different than that of the basic organisms. Why do humans feel the need to be separate?

Yes we are animals. Humans aren't really more complex than any other creature. We feel the need to be seperate because Humans aren't from Earth.

Well... the Inca were from Earth, but they were taken away.

The Chaos Gods are a joke compared to the Hive Mind. They simply can not effect it and are neutralized by it.

broodstar wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:Tyranids already have a God, it's the Deciever....or at least it was... :(

What book was that in?

I don't think it was actually in a book. I really cannot recall. But there was myth that the Deciever was guiding the Bugs. It was inferred from the fluff at the time. I wish I could support with sauce, but sadily I cannot.

DeffDred wrote:

Yes we are animals. Humans aren't really more complex than any other creature. We feel the need to be seperate because Humans aren't from Earth.

Well... the Inca were from Earth, but they were taken away.

I take it you believe the Anunnaki theory?


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DeffDred wrote:Of course Tyranids can read and write... genestealer cults anyone?

I maybe wrong, but I think your idea of the Genestealer cult is wrong. IIRC the cult don't refer to genestealers worshipping, but rather being worshipped. The Genestealers purpose is to infest and interbreed with the inhabitants of the worlds, thus when the hive fleet arrives, it already have immunity to the bacteria and viruses of that world. The cultist are people that see the Genestealer as gods and voluntarily interbreed with the Genestealers.

Yeah, I think the genestealer cults were more infected humans who were basically hiding and waiting to spring out and cause havoc in the early stages of the invasion. Guided by genestealrs, of course. And am I the only one who thinks being "interbred" with a genestealer is the most terrifying thing ever? ugh...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't really call the cults Tyranids, more like "Tyranid-influenced".

You're not the only one dude. As dark and horrible the things that take place in the Tyranid story line are, I'm sure that ranks up there.

ZombieJoe wrote:

broodstar wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:Tyranids already have a God, it's the Deciever....or at least it was... :(

What book was that in?

I don't think it was actually in a book. I really cannot recall. But there was myth that the Deciever was guiding the Bugs. It was inferred from the fluff at the time. I wish I could support with sauce, but sadily I cannot.

It was only a myth for people who didn't understand the fundamentals of the hive mind (known to be a psychic entity) and the ctan (the warp is anathema to them). Basically, can't happen.

But that doesn't stop people making space marines with boobs either.

broodstar wrote:Well, even though the codex says the Tyrant ability to learn from it's mistakes and is self-aware. That in fact the Tyranids ARE sentients you just really have to look for your evidence because they are so alien, most of the way they operate takes place in ways the Imperium doesn't understand and it can be argued that the Imperium truly know them, but I'll play your little game.

Tyranids may be sentient, but then dogs are sentient. They're not - as human beings are - sapient. Tyranids don't, for instance, create art, make moral judgements or pose philosophical questions as human beings do, are not presented in the fluff as being capable of doing so.

DeffDred wrote:Yes we are animals. Humans aren't really more complex than any other creature.

We may be animals indeed, but homo sapiens is unique in developing complex languages, society and culture. We're animals who've been to the moon, written Hamlet and split the atom.

DeffDred wrote:We feel the need to be seperate because Humans aren't from Earth.

Well... the Inca were from Earth, but they were taken away.

Interestingly, this highlights another important way in which we are undeniably distinct from animals; human beings are capable of creating and believing in myths, things for which there is no empirical evidence. Usually this takes the form of religions or other superstitious beliefs, but for some people it takes that of believing crazy internet pseudoscience about the Incas.

English Assassin wrote:

broodstar wrote:Well, even though the codex says the Tyrant ability to learn from it's mistakes and is self-aware. That in fact the Tyranids ARE sentients you just really have to look for your evidence because they are so alien, most of the way they operate takes place in ways the Imperium doesn't understand and it can be argued that the Imperium truly know them, but I'll play your little game.

Tyranids may be sentient, but then dogs are sentient. They're not - as human beings are - sapient. Tyranids don't, for instance, create art, make moral judgements or pose philosophical questions as human beings do, are not presented in the fluff as being capable of doing so.

Sir, I'm going to call you for "moving the goalpost".

broodstar wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

broodstar wrote:Well, even though the codex says the Tyrant ability to learn from it's mistakes and is self-aware. That in fact the Tyranids ARE sentients you just really have to look for your evidence because they are so alien, most of the way they operate takes place in ways the Imperium doesn't understand and it can be argued that the Imperium truly know them, but I'll play your little game.

Tyranids may be sentient, but then dogs are sentient. They're not - as human beings are - sapient. Tyranids don't, for instance, create art, make moral judgements or pose philosophical questions as human beings do, are not presented in the fluff as being capable of doing so.

Sir, I'm going to call you for "moving the goalpost".

Well, you and everybody else in this thread have been misusing 'sentience', I thought I might as well put you right.

English Assassin wrote:Well, you and everybody else in this thread have been misusing 'sentience', I thought I might as well put you right.

Dictionary.com

sen·tient
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.

No Sir, as of yet the dicision has been me and those in agreement with me proving and denying whether Tyranids and RL insects (where Tyranids draw inspiration for their hirarchy) have inteligence and are self-aware.

Dictionary.com

sa·pi·ent
having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment.

At any rate I'll take this, How would you like me to demenstrate this?
Could Tyranid wisdom be shown in the way they harvast, how do they know if it is the right time (safe) for the Bio-ships to come through the atmosphere and begin collecting from the reclaimation pools?
Could the Swarmlord have been able to make such blows against Calgar. The way the Swarmlord specifically targetted the Baneblade, did that not show sound judgement?


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English Assassin wrote: sapient. Tyranids don't, for instance, create art, make moral judgements or pose philosophical questions

Funny, by that definition, you've used sapient wrong.

DeffDred wrote:
National Geographic.

Ants "write" using 3 different pheremones from 3 different "pens" on their body.

2 on the end of the body. 1 in the mouth.

That sounds a lot more like marking than writing. Admittedly there could be codes and combination.


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broodstar wrote:What is the spoken language but an organized series of sounds to convey an idea?... The Chimpanzee's speech is so complex that Biologists have even identified a specific sound for snake.

It's the specifically human capacity to symbolize anything. Humans can learn new languages by simple inferences. They can create new languages about halfway through their maturation process. Of course, once you start climbing the evolutionnary scale, you start finding living beings that become more and more capable of learning symbolisation. Coco the gorilla was capable of symbolizing her pet kitty in paintings. But it has to be something of great 'existential value' ; snakes are primordial dangers for chimps, the kitty was Coco's way to cope with the depression she felt because she was sterile... They don't have anything close to our capacity for symbolization. Replace the brown stain on Coco's canvas with a black one and it's impossible to get her to think 'black kitty'. Put the ants in a context where it would be useful to learn a new combination of 'marking', and they won't ever figure out what it is.

No matter how much you don't like it, you are an animal. You came from the same planet they came from, you are a more complex organism but when you boil it all down the functions you are doing is no different than that of the basic organisms. Why do humans feel the need to be separate?

Never said we weren't. This isn't about some kind of sanctity of humanity crap, this is about emerging capacities. Our langage is not like theirs, it cumulates their capacities and adds up more. We are the evolutionnary apex on Earth, so yeah we possess some skills others don't have, just like simple observation will revel that mammals have emerging capacities over reptiles, and so forth...

DOOMBREAD wrote:Tyranids have only one true sentient mind for all of them: the Hive Mind. So I don't think they'll create a Chaos God.

What I was correcting was this: all Tyranids (or at least all of tabletop model size) are portrayed as being very obviously sentient, even in the absence of the hive mind they are (to quote the OED) "capable of feeling; having the power or function of sensation or of perception by the senses". Relevant to the question posed, however, is that they (as creatures which cheerfully allow themselves to be reabsorbed at the end of a conquest) are not portrayed as possessing a fear of death, nor aspirations for the future, likewise they do not appear to seek fulfilment or feel anger (they are, as Kryptman put it "...incapable of good, honest human hatred."), and as such would feel no emotions of interest to the gods of chaos.

broodstar wrote:Dictionary.com

sa·pi·ent
having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment.

The relevant definition of sapience here is the biologists' one (to again quote the OED): 'Characteristics particular to and defining of modern man, homo sapiens'. This usage literally stems from Linnaeus' choice of 'sapiens', and covers the whole raft of mental capabilities unique to mankind - as I stated above, creating art, forming moral codes, etc. (In this instance, since we are discussing a sci-fi universe, such characteristics are of course no longer unique to homo sapiens, but possessed by the Eldar, the Tau, etc.)

broodstar wrote:At any rate I'll take this, How would you like me to demenstrate this?
Could Tyranid wisdom be shown in the way they harvast, how do they know if it is the right time (safe) for the Bio-ships to come through the atmosphere and begin collecting from the reclaimation pools?
Could the Swarmlord have been able to make such blows against Calgar. The way the Swarmlord specifically targetted the Baneblade, did that not show sound judgement?

Wolves, lions and chimpanzees have all been observed as capable of employing something approximate to 'tactics'; being able to do so does not define an organism as being above the level of an animal. The Swarmlord might be the exception that proves the rule: the one being of its race capable feeling anger at the little blue men getting in his way, or taking pleasure in tearing Marneus Calgar's limbs off. Of course, it could just be a particularly intelligent (a different quality again) animal born with a repository of useful memories.

English Assassin wrote:

DOOMBREAD wrote:Tyranids have only one true sentient mind for all of them: the Hive Mind. So I don't think they'll create a Chaos God.

What I was correcting was this: all Tyranids (or at least all of tabletop model size) are portrayed as being very obviously sentient, even in the absence of the hive mind they are (to quote the OED) "capable of feeling; having the power or function of sensation or of perception by the senses". Relevant to the question posed, however, is that they (as creatures which cheerfully allow themselves to be reabsorbed at the end of a conquest) are not portrayed as possessing a fear of death, nor aspirations for the future, likewise they do not appear to seek fulfilment or feel anger (they are, as Kryptman put it "...incapable of good, honest human hatred."), and as such would feel no emotions of interest to the gods of chaos.

Perhaps, but my point effectively remains the same. An individual Tyranid is as capable of producing warp-effecting emotions as a roach, so for the purposes of creating a Chaos God, the Tyranids may as well be a single entity.