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The thing about escapism is that the things that it encapsulates seem to change depending upon who you're dealing with. Either that, or I (and a lot of other people) grossly misunderstand the term.

Trying to dodge the "wargaming 6 hours every day is escapism, you should be healthy like me and watch tv for 8 hours every day" argument, it seems like the most generalized definition one can generate is "someone who does something to pass the time as a diversion." Everyone does that; it's called a hobby. Perhaps the problem is that escapism is that when you take that to an extreme, but again, what is an extreme?

I play a lot of video games, spend a lot of time thinking about Warhammer, and spend a lot of time playing D&D. Probably the majority of my time awake. But I'm always thinking about god damn near everything else all the while. I was reading about electrical theory the other day. I've started writing an OpenGL visualizer for data at work, simply because I was bored. Last night I was unable to sleep because I was up all night reading about signet rings. I soak information to an extreme. Is this escapism?

daedalus wrote:The thing about escapism is that the things that it encapsulates seem to change depending upon who you're dealing with. Either that, or I (and a lot of other people) grossly misunderstand the term.

Trying to dodge the "wargaming 6 hours every day is escapism, you should be healthy like me and watch tv for 8 hours every day" argument, it seems like the most generalized definition one can generate is "someone who does something to pass the time as a diversion." Everyone does that; it's called a hobby. Perhaps the problem is that escapism is that when you take that to an extreme, but again, what is an extreme?

I play a lot of video games, spend a lot of time thinking about Warhammer, and spend a lot of time playing D&D. Probably the majority of my time awake. But I'm always thinking about god damn near everything else all the while. I was reading about electrical theory the other day. I've started writing an OpenGL visualizer for data at work, simply because I was bored. Last night I was unable to sleep because I was up all night reading about signet rings. I soak information to an extreme. Is this escapism?

Let me answer your question with another question, are you feeling the need to avoid, or minimise the effect of some part in your life?

Wardragoon wrote:

Let me answer your question with another question, are you feeling the need to avoid, or minimise the effect of some part in your life?

No, but only because I've made my life into only those things which I enjoy. So the answer is probably an overwhelming yes, but that might cause me to have to drink to the Overthinking Person's Drinking Game.

This is why I love Poland. Around here it's you like soccer I play computer games, let's go out and drink. No bs nerd/ cool guy line.

Now there's the matter of girls. I was kind of attacked by girls and woman my whole youth, guess I had to be kind of attractive to them. I was all about "nerdish" activities, ccgs, pcs, larping, rpgs, sf, fantasy etc. So, my first notion is that nerdish activities has no impact on your popularity with girs unless maybe you live in US and don't play the game with a strangely shaped ball where unlike Brits or Aussies (not sure) you have to go fully armoured to not get hurt, sooooo manly (but is it really that shallow in USA? You people from States, it sometimes look from the outside like you were living in a highly hierarchical society). Fun fact, during some of my "nerdish" activities we were playing the same but naked chest and a huge stone that was hard to pick up, let alone carry.

Back to girls/ woman, the trouble is, I wasted all those opportunities until I found the supposedly right girl etc. I tend to think it was not my nerdery that was guilty but actualy the "high" clasicall literature that "poisoned" me (yeah Tolstoy I'm looking at you, or your grave) with the idea of girl as a human not a thing, something to protect, respect, love and live the whole life with. The same literatrure painted the poster women as honorable, wise, delicate creatures with pure souls, proud eye and a heart of Saint Mary. After obvious disapointments in this time and age I ended up as a "cool guy" which in my book counts as my worst fall and the era of my life I'm deeply ashamed with. I can't say today, was I shy, highly moral, smart, naive to not use every opportunity, anyway my second notion is that the "nerd" label is a simplification of matters equal to me calling car or sport fans quick with girls "apes". Not going to, someone has to stay classy here.

If someone is interested in the current conclusion of my romantic story, I found the poster girl and married her. I do not feel worthy of her though, being heavily spoiled and jaded. Must be something nerdish.

English Assassin wrote:'Escapist' became a disparaging term in the 1960s, thanks to the likes of Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer, who popularised the view among the 'educated classes' (whatever they really are) that 'relevance' was the essential criterion of intellectual or artistic worth (this was the era of 'kitchen sink realism'), and that the growth of enjoyable and harmless but essentially irrelevant 'leisure pursuits' was a tool to divide and oppress the masses by taking up their free time and giving them something on which frivolously to spend their money.

Needless to say, Horkheimer and Adorno are full of crap, but this hasn't prevented the 'escapist' tag from enduring as a specific insult to anything nerdy, despite the obvious fact that all pass-times (including non-nerdy ones like sports and 'high culture') are likewise inherently 'escapist'.

Yep, the whole nerd thing is bs unless everybody is a nerd, TV nerd, car nerd, sex nerd, pub nerd, mountain nerd, garden nerd. Just a matter of culture/ fashion. Some of the greatest scientists, writers and philosophers would qualify for nerd by some of the definitions, fine then, nerd for you, touching the divine for me.

English Assassin wrote:It is worth adding, however, that writers (and readers) of sci-fi and fantasy do lay themselves open to this kind of criticism; I would indeed write-off the vast majority of 'genre fiction' as providing nothing other than escapism, without possessing any broader literary merit. It does make me a little sad when self-proclaimed fans of sci-fi eagerly lap up Star Wars spin-off novels, but wouldn't dream of reading literary sci-fi like Margaret Attwood or Kurt Vonnegut, or even classics like Arthur C. Clarke or Philip K. Dick, all of whom enjoy a significant readership and critical appreciation outside of genre fans, regarding them as 'boring' because they don't feature many explosions, laser gun battles or cute robots. Ironically, they are in fact fans of the trappings of science fiction (i.e. futuristic societies and technology) without actually enjoying the genre's fundamental purpose: to address the relationship between human beings and technology.

Chep literature plagues every genre, fantasy attracts bad writers though because you are not restrained that much by stupid things like real world, you only need some fancy names and someone before you to rip off the plot from. Good fantasy and sf are high literature, no doubt and no more escapistic than any fiction book from other genre.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
unless maybe you live in US and don't play the game with a strangely shaped ball where unlike Brits or Aussies (not sure) you have to go fully armoured to not get hurt

Whilst we DO play the game with the round ball as well, our odd-shaped ball sports are all done without ARMOUR. They used to be used, but not to the same extent as the Americans use (when I was a kid - so over 30 years ago - but various rules have changed several times since as well) but they aren't used anymore.

Yeah because picking up needless injuries from a game is totally manly. For reals.

*rolls eyes*

I've "escaped" probably about 3 times in my life, when stress overcame me for various reasons. The rest of the time, my hobbies are just that- interests that keep me from getting bored and amuse me, but not something that eats up my life.

Is escapism good? Nah, I don't think so. I think having a hobby, having an interest is good. I think "escaping" your problems is a survival technique, more than anything, but it's an avoidant one. It's healthier to face problems and deal with them. But we're all only human, and especially if you are immature (and I say immature because I don't mean just "A child") you need to escape for a while to develop perspective and a clearer head, before you can face your problem.

On the whole "Nerds get excluded" thing, I think generally people with low self esteem get excluded. I had a rough time in school (low self esteem) but in University I had a whale of a time because I was gaining more confidence in myself and became very outgoing, perhaps too outgoing and confident. After life has hit me round the face a few times, I'm a little more reserved and calm about things, and I'm happy with that. I think it's a pretty normal way for things to go, for people.

 chromedog wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
unless maybe you live in US and don't play the game with a strangely shaped ball where unlike Brits or Aussies (not sure) you have to go fully armoured to not get hurt

Whilst we DO play the game with the round ball as well, our odd-shaped ball sports are all done without ARMOUR. They used to be used, but not to the same extent as the Americans use (when I was a kid - so over 30 years ago - but various rules have changed several times since as well) but they aren't used anymore.

Why ARMOUR in capital letters? Just curious.

Da Boss wrote:
Yeah because picking up needless injuries from a game is totally manly. For reals.

*rolls eyes*

Of course it is not, it's funny though how those American Football guys think they're tough in comparision. A "nerd" thinking hard about infinity or humanity might take more risk than the meantioned sportsman, at least as far as I'm concerned the soccer injuries for example hurt less.

Da Boss wrote:
Is escapism good? Nah, I don't think so. I think having a hobby, having an interest is good. I think "escaping" your problems is a survival technique, more than anything, but it's an avoidant one.

It's measured (on cancer and accidents victims afair) that computer games have better painkiller effects than opiates, assuming the person likes gaming from the start. I think escapism as we discuss is good because everybody does that but majority do it through alcohol or drugs. I used to do both to fight problems and just lately I learned to sit and paint a plastic carnifex, now tell me which one is better.

Da Boss wrote:
It's healthier to face problems and deal with them. But we're all only human, and especially if you are immature (and I say immature because I don't mean just "A child") you need to escape for a while to develop perspective and a clearer head, before you can face your problem.

I have to disagree about health and maturity point, there are pains so unbearable to a human that all you can do is escaping. Again escaping is good because it saves you from more drastic reactions, imo.

Personnaly I work a lot, I mean a LOT, I am pulling 21 hour days awake at the moment and the bulk of that is working, a lot of it is web based and paperwork on the laptop so I am usually flicking through other web pages. I dont watch much tv, and most of my socialising is via work I exereicse at least once a day either gym or kickboxing so I do need a release at lest once a week, 40k is that release. I have 3 clubs within 30mins drive and am working on making time to visit each one at least once a week.

Personnaly I am a nerd and am proud to be one, I have a list of certifications in computing enjoy playing with little toy soldiers but I dont promote that side to everyone a lot just wouldnt understand it. Geek is cool for me though.

I played football to the college level, and even picked up a few "manly" injuries along the way.

In high school and even into college, while playing football, I would play DnD (high school) and warhammer in college.

Now, I play WoW and warhammer 40k as a form a escapism. The job I work, while not always so, is, at times very dangerous and stressful. So instead of coming home and releasing the frustration and stress upon my family, I escape into WoW/warhammer to de-escalate. Its either that or become an alcoholic.

Yes, I do also workout, but for me, that's more of a physical release, not a mental one, so I use my hobbies as a mental release.

I will not flame the OP. Too much temptation

Escapism is fine. Imbalance is not.

Short but wonderfully sweet.
One needs to take a look at how much (oh boy here comes that word) "escapism" one delves into and evaluate it against the things that are at ones core values (perhaps friends, work, family, charity, religion etc etc).
If one outways the other disproportionally or literally begins to take over, thats never healthy (as with all "vices" - good or bad).
It sounds a little flakey and trite but if you enjoy the escapism aspect, go with it, just dont let it become http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Pursuits_%28TNG_episode%29
(yeah I know a cheesy example but it was on last night ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I will not flame the OP. Too much temptation

Uhmm why would you? Im intrigued / a little concerned for you.

Maybe becaise im a Brony, Y'know escapism and such.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Maybe becaise im a Brony, Y'know escapism and such.

Hotsauceman has made many threads like this. He's simply a fairly depressing poster. Brony's tend to take the escapism to a whole new level of an awkward anti-social personality.

I used to regularly sit in my room and sort of 'Escape" into painting armies. At the same time, I had an active social life and didn't ignore the outside world. The GW Hobby IMHO is a fairly social experience and great for some of the awkward neck beards that populate the community. Whether they are 16 or in their 40s - it is a great way to break out of there solitude bubble. I view escapism as something a bit different. The people that sit in their rooms all day watching anime, the people that stagnate watching TV for hours a day, and so on. People that waste time by themselves. Wargaming is a social hobby. I do not really view it as escapism. Yes, I would stay up all night and paint while listening to music. I enjoyed the peacefulness and solitude. Was I escaping? Just taking a breather from a really busy life. Did I lock myself in my room for days and refuse to talk to people? no....

 Auxellion wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Maybe becaise im a Brony, Y'know escapism and such.

Hotsauceman has made many threads like this. He's simply a fairly depressing poster. Brony's tend to take the escapism to a whole new level of an awkward anti-social personality.

True or otherwise, this is not the only thread in which you've used this as an opportunity to kick him in the proverbial balls about it. He self-identifies with a animated kids cartoon. We paint toy soldiers and pat ourselves on the back over it. At the end of the day, there's things far more bizarre than him running around, and it doesn't really add benefit to the topic at hand to single him out for such.

Frankly, I find myself unwilling to discuss the things I self-identify with in a public forum, and I gotta at least give him props for doing so himself, no matter how distasteful I might find it personally.

I used to regularly sit in my room and sort of 'Escape" into painting armies. At the same time, I had an active social life and didn't ignore the outside world. The GW Hobby IMHO is a fairly social experience and great for some of the awkward neck beards that populate the community. Whether they are 16 or in their 40s - it is a great way to break out of there solitude bubble. I view escapism as something a bit different. The people that sit in their rooms all day watching anime, the people that stagnate watching TV for hours a day, and so on. People that waste time by themselves. Wargaming is a social hobby. I do not really view it as escapism. Yes, I would stay up all night and paint while listening to music. I enjoyed the peacefulness and solitude. Was I escaping? Just taking a breather from a really busy life. Did I lock myself in my room for days and refuse to talk to people? no....

The interesting thing is that you're assuming that "escapism" is hermitism. While I wouldn't disagree with the possibility of them overlapping, I'm not sure it's all-inclusive. I think you can surround yourself with hundreds of people and still be practicing "escapism", so long as you're shutting some other part of life or your world view out. Of course, I don't think this is limited to "Nerd Culture" as per the OP. In a lot of strange ways, nerds are more removed from society yet more social than the normies are.

I would be interested to see if the pair who committed the Columbine School Massacre or the recent Batman Premier Murderer were engaged in escapism.

The problem for me, is when Escapism meets Mental illness it takes a healthy outlet for fantasies, day dreaming and unfulfilled aspirations and turns them into a massive negative.

I read books for escapism, many people do, I recently read the popular Conn Iggulden series on Ghenghis Khan. I imagined what it must have been like back then, whether I would have coped? This is quite a social acceptable form of escapism, look at all the women getting hot under the collar about "50 Shades of grey".

Escapism is part of the Human condition, it shows we have higher intellect and spare capacity to ponder on other things. It is a muse, and inspires many of us daily, in art, in music, in religion, science and in general adds a layer of colour and diversity to an otherwise mundane existence

Einstein did say "Imagination is more important than Knowledge".

If the geek community is guilty of anything it is of being almost too Intelligent compare to the masses, this means our brains work overtime all the time. We engage more readily with alien/unfamiliar concepts and take them on board and run with them. I personally think Wargaming is very healthy, if you approach it right, unfortunately the Unhygienic, Morbidly obese, Socially awkward geeks reinforce the "COMIC BOOK GUY" stereo-type and don't help our cause much.



I have to be honest, people like Alan Bligh at Forge World do reinforce peoples Perceptions of Wargaming, this is why I wouldn't go to Games Day, (I am guessing I would need a Gas Mask to stop being overpowered by the smell of BO), it's kind of like Escapism en Masse. I'm pretty sure this could be defined as a Cult?

Seems a bit unfair. Appearance and hygiene I don't see as germane to the topic. Unless you are demonstrating the unkind social pressures that could lead to someone wanting to escape?

 Auxellion wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Maybe becaise im a Brony, Y'know escapism and such.

Hotsauceman has made many threads like this. He's simply a fairly depressing poster. Brony's tend to take the escapism to a whole new level of an awkward anti-social personality.

I used to regularly sit in my room and sort of 'Escape" into painting armies. At the same time, I had an active social life and didn't ignore the outside world. The GW Hobby IMHO is a fairly social experience and great for some of the awkward neck beards that populate the community. Whether they are 16 or in their 40s - it is a great way to break out of there solitude bubble. I view escapism as something a bit different. The people that sit in their rooms all day watching anime, the people that stagnate watching TV for hours a day, and so on. People that waste time by themselves. Wargaming is a social hobby. I do not really view it as escapism. Yes, I would stay up all night and paint while listening to music. I enjoyed the peacefulness and solitude. Was I escaping? Just taking a breather from a really busy life. Did I lock myself in my room for days and refuse to talk to people? no....

Um, I dont do hat either, I get out at school, I Socialize with others many times. I go to warhammer night once aa week, and i have met many new people who i have great conversations with even if i havn't meant them before. And Im depressing? Im fairly Happy, Sure im not over flowing with joy, but really I dont have alot to complain about.

 eohall wrote:
Seems a bit unfair. Appearance and hygiene I don't see as germane to the topic. Unless you are demonstrating the unkind social pressures that could lead to someone wanting to escape?

Neither, I am saying that some people take refuge in Fantasy Escapism because they cannot face up to their own problems. This seems to be a particular problem in the geek community where many displace their issues by becoming engrossed in a sub-culture, this reinforces negative stereotypes held my many in society which do have a kernel of truth. For example,

1. Geeks have poor Hygiene.
2. Geeks have poor Social Skills.
3. Geeks are general Overweight or morbidly obese.
4. Geeks don't know when to draw a line between enthusiasm and obsession.

Whether this is fair or not, is irrelevant it is whether it is true or not? Thing's like the Simpson's lampoon this with "Comic Book Guy", our own "Neck Beards" which reflects some of societies attitudes. In my own experience at University, I lived with 8 people of which 2 were Uber-geeks, both Grossly Overweight, both with long hair, both Computer Scientists both massively into Sci-fi, Anime and Fantasy stuff. Both of them espoused Crazy Illuminatii crap, and everything is a conspiracy, poured scorn on anyone religious or not perceived as one of them. Neither of them went the laundry often, or had clean clothes. They physically repulsed me with their lack of Hygiene in the Kitchen and in their rooms. Eventually we had an intervention and Ghostbustered their room with Fabreeze because they stank.

One of them smartened up in Third year, cut his hair, lost 8 stone and realised he was living like a sloth. The other is a waste of space and an Oxygen thief. You can be free to live your life as you see fit, but that doesn't mean you are immune from Criticism or being mocked, that is what a free society is all about. This is even more important if your lifestyle is impacting on others who live near you or with you.

I think escapism taken to extremes is exceptionally dangerous, for your mental health. Some escapism is essential and healthy, but like everything in life, moderation is key.

Look at this....Does he have a problem being called fat? If so he has a problem with reality and facts. He needs to face up to many issues, but is displacing his issues.

 mwnciboo wrote:


Look at this....Does he have a problem being called fat? If so he has a problem with reality and facts. He needs to face up to many issues, but is displacing his issues.

No, he has no problem with it. Staged situation is staged.

I know fat obsessive football supporters who don't wash too. I know they are within the gaming community too but there aren't any in my group sop the idea it's typical is complete balls.

Re bible quote: Unless ye become as little children ye shall not enter the kingdom.

Here. Here ya go: Another one with the same guy. It's not a one-off thing. It's his schtick.




Appears to be the Jersey Shore of fatguys.

 Glorioski wrote:
I know fat obsessive football supporters who don't wash too.

True, but the football stereo-type is a football Hooligan who will kick your head in.



Not this guy.



You can argue all you like, I saw a WHFB Tournament last weekend, and the numbers of FA/TG/UYS was ridiculous. 4 Chairs were broken (read crushed/ taken beyond their design limits) at the venue FFS. You've got to help people face upto their problems, escapism is fine but too many take refuge in it. If you want to argue that the Geek Community is no worse than others, I don't buy it, not one bit. Wargaming is a Sedate hobby, you don't need to be fit and healthy to play unlike say Rugby or Football. It is very tolerant so many "not very sporty People" (to use a pleasant turn of phrase) have flocked to it, this has in turn reinforced the idea of fat boy recluses playing with their models, which isn't far off the mark.

 mwnciboo wrote:
You can argue all you like, I'm not going to agree with you.

Ok fair enough.

 mwnciboo wrote:
You've got to help people face upto their problems, escapism is fine but too many take refuge in it. If you want to argue that the Geek Community is no worse than others, I don't buy it, not one bit. Wargaming is a Sedate hobby, you don't need to be fit and healthy to play unlike say Rugby or Football. It is very tolerant so many "not very sporty People" (to use a pleasant turn of phrase) have flocked to it, this has in turn reinforced the idea of fat boy recluses playing with their models, which isn't far off the mark.

I take your general point about escapism as a form of avoidance, but the interventionist attitude strikes me as bizarre.

True, but the football stereo-type is a football Hooligan who will kick your head in.

Really? Down here most of the football sterotype looks like this



Or this



Most of the fans I've seen vary, from those who really could kick your head in, to those who would have trouble walking over to you, letting alone take a swing.

I don't like the idea that people have to come up with a name for everything. We can't just like something and partake in it? I don't see how this is any different then luaghing at us and pointing fingers. All your doing is saying it in a "scientific" way so you can get away with it. I also think its unfair to label nerds or wargamers as fat either. I personally think the fat thing is because most people are over wait. How often do you see people that aren't? I don't at least not around here. Even I could lose a few pounds.

I also don't buy the idea that over weight people need to be ridiculed for it. I'm very sure that their aware of their predicament. That reasoning is nothing but an excuse for people to be rude to others. You may not have a weight issue but I'm sure you have faults just like the rest of us. Would you like those rubbed in your face on a daily bases. I don't think so, nobody does.

All this is is the same that it's always been. We are different and like different things. And generally we make prime targets because we are the "nice nerd guys". We don't usually fight back and were forever relegated to the friend zone.

 wowsmash wrote:
I don't like the idea that people have to come up with a name for everything. We can't just like something and partake in it? I don't see how this is any different then luaghing at us and pointing fingers. All your doing is saying it in a "scientific" way so you can get away with it. I also think its unfair to label nerds or wargamers as fat either. I personally think the fat thing is because most people are over wait. How often do you see people that aren't? I don't at least not around here. Even I could lose a few pounds.

But if we can't label things with armchair psycho-sophistry, how will we know what is wrong and deserving of ridicule?

I realise that this thread has veered away from its original topic into a discussion of nerdy stereotypes, but never mind...

 wowsmash wrote:
I also think its unfair to label nerds or wargamers as fat either. I personally think the fat thing is because most people are over wait. How often do you see people that aren't? I don't at least not around here. Even I could lose a few pounds.

I'm going to resist making the obvious remark about the flag next to your name, but will say that you should be careful about assuming your experience to be the norm. I honestly can't think of a single friend or colleague of mine - including my gaming friends - that's fat. But then I live and work in a university town, and am surrounded by people who are predominantly young, healthy and physically active, so I'm conscious that my experience isn't necessarily the norm. (It may also be a contributing factor that the maths and comp. sci. postgrads work a mile or so away.) The only fat people I'm used to seeing are chavvy locals smoking outside pubs or lolloping around Sainsburys pushing a trolley full of pies and ice cream.

 wowsmash wrote:
I also don't buy the idea that over weight people need to be ridiculed for it. I'm very sure that their aware of their predicament. That reasoning is nothing but an excuse for people to be rude to others. You may not have a weight issue but I'm sure you have faults just like the rest of us. Would you like those rubbed in your face on a daily bases. I don't think so, nobody does.

I don't wholly agree. The guy in above videos needs to acknowledge that he's morbidly obese to the point that he no longer quite looks human in order to do anything about it, just as (to return to my earlier sentiments) the self-professed sci-fi fan who reads nothing but franchise novelisations deserves to be told both that he's reading utter crap, and that he has in fact read little or no actual sci-fi.

 English Assassin wrote:
I realise that this thread has veered away from its original topic into a discussion of nerdy stereotypes, but never mind...

I think Obesity is a Nerdy stereotype, but I actually agree with all of what you have written above.

At People who say "I don't agree with Intervention".

Why not be interventionist? Consider the issue in the Round. People fundamentally don't know what is good for them? Hence spiralling Obesity and other social ills, everyone hides behind it's my right to do what I like, in the face of Medical advice (like don't smoke, eat your greens, clean your teeth, exercise like 30mins a day etc) . It does not cure social problems to be afraid of addressing them it perpetuates it. I have no problem with people doing what they like, but there must be consequences to their actions or their lack of discipline. Free Healthcare is a good example of this.

Here in the UK it is costing the NHS Billions to sort out Obesity based issues (Gastric bands etc). If you cannot look after yourself to a reasonable level then I am against you getting treatment at vast expense from the NHS. Equally levels of Diabetes are skyrocketing, Heart disease, complications for other conditions and problems. I have the same opinion about Smokers and Alcoholics. Why should a decent Human being not be entitled to a life saving if expensive operation, for a Liver Transplant because an alcoholic is on the waiting list ahead of them? They had theirs and wasted it...

My Local A&E where my Wife works, is being sued because a guy was so big he broke the bed he was in (30 stone +) and hurt himself into the bargain. Now the NHS is considering buying Outsize Equipment at great expense. Why should he be given Tax payers money for being grossly obese and the weight of a small Cow?

Plus I am not talking about people being overweight (most of us ). The Body Mass Index was introduced based on data from the 1940's/50's, today people are much healthier and taller than back then (less rickets etc). I am talking about the Morbidly Obese, 30+ on the index (40%+ of their BODY MASS is pure fat!), People so Large they have trouble being mobile, this is ridiculous.

Recently a Programme called the Hairy Bikers took two TV chefs, and they went on a 3 Month Diet and Exercise programme and it was inspirational to see them go from Morbidly Obese to reasonably Healthy. I believe this is how to handle your problems, head on and honestly.



That pile of Lard on the Table is how much one of them lost....

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. It does not mean a free cheque or freedom to do as you will without consequences.

ON TOPIC - This is getting away from the fundamental point on escapism, which LIKE ALL THINGS IS GREAT IN MODERATION. When you take something to an extreme you are developing an unhealthy habit and there are always consequences for an Unhealthy Habit. If in doubt think "Would Fulgrim approve?" if so you are going the wrong way (that is wrong on so many levels).