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nkelsch wrote:Modeling shoota/choppa is confusing as all hell and totally unfair if you attempt to run them as both shootas and slugga.

This is true (though I wouldn't be as emphatic), however I think the OP is going to run them all as Shootas so it shouldn't be an issue. As long as all figures armed the same way represent the same loadout you shouldn't have any problems.

It's only really a problem when you run some as slugga/choppas and some as shootas. That would be terribly confusing for an opponent facing an Ork horde.

I run only shootas. I have been since I started playing about 2 years ago. This would be my first tourney, and probably the only kind of situation where I'd even be worried about this whole dilemma. I've had these AOBR boyz since I started playing and honestly, I have never met someone who called me on it. I just say at the beginning of the match. "I'm running all shootas" and it's cool. However, I can imagine this turning in to a huge problem at a tournament where money and prizes are involved. Hence the topic.
I believe what I'll do is bow out of the tournament, and just continue being a casual player. The 100+ hours of painting and the $200 or so dollars involved is far and away too much for me to reinvest just to play legally at some tourneys which I'm unlikely to place in anyway.
Thanks for all the advice guys, very much appreciated.

This kind of event might not be ideal for you. I wouldn't let it keep you away from more casual local tournaments, though. I find that (especially as a busy, working adult) they're one of the best opportunities to check out some awesome armies and get multiple games in a single day, often against new people and armies.

Can someone briefly explain why Shootas are so much better that you must rebuild a whole army instead of just sticking with Choppas?

Well, I can't really explain why in all that crazy metagame lingo that all the pro players can wrangle up, but I can say this.
Sacrificing a single CC attack per boy, to get two ranged attacks at 18" and one additional str than the slugga just makes sense.
The sense is that your boy is more flexible.

**actually sluggas and shootas ARE the same str. My bad.

I'd just ask the TO if it's ok to run your Sluggas as Shootas. I also wouldn't modify your current Sluggas, it's always best to keep what you already have and just add to it rather than modifying/selling portions of your army.

Since when were shootas S 5?

Both shoota and slugga are 4. BIG shootas are 5

Shootas are more damaging when snapshotting a charging unit, and have a greater threat radius,

I have a bunch of both kinds I used it as an excuse to buy more boyz ..

deathholydeath wrote:

pretre wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:

What 5th has to say isn't really relevant anymore...

Find me a wysiwyg reference in 6ed.

Edit: In the end its up to the TO's of course but you could also conceivable invoke "counts as".

That's my point. The problem is that the event requires it.

WYSIWYG is pretty well implied in the power weapons section where it states that a model is armed with the type of power weapon it physically has on it. But, you're correct, it's not stated outright. However, most tournaments are WYSIWYG.

For my part, I support the gunblade/axe idea.

Im not arguing that it isnt used. I was pointing out the most up to date information regarding the rule is in the 5th ed rulebook. In either case BOTH adding the shoota to the models as well as invoking counts as would be perfectly legal. Barring TO stating otherwise.

I don't think "Count's As" has anything to do with this. CA is for cool modeling ideas that represent something else in the rules. It is a bridge between creative license and rules. This is just "I don't want to use this particular loadout anymore".

my response would be stop playing a ridiculous game that requires you to paint 120 orks....that reason is one of the chief reasons i started warmachine instead of painting my 180 member waaaaagh.
I say model the slugga into a shooota.

matphat, IMO, in general you will be fine if you sling sluggas on their backs, as long as you run all shootas.

Cut off the axe and put another gun in the other hand.

That way they can be two weapons, or fire both as shootas as a neat "conversion", depending on list.

What you could do is a variation of something used in WFB a lot, a unit filler type thing.
say you have your 120 boys in 4+ mobs, but they all have slugga and choppa, and half are ran as shootas. How about making some kind of 'token/banner' to accompany each unit? Could be as simple as a 40mm base with a flag, painted with either s+c or shoota, up to something more ornate and theme-fitting... Just make sure it is big, noticable (so opponent doesnt have to remember every mob, he can just look for the token), and that obviously tied to a certain mob.

Cheap, quick, takes the pressure off the opponent to remember, could look really cool...

Couldn't you cut the barrel off a shoota and glue it onto the slugga?

I've converted a shoota into a big shoota by trimming the end of the barrel down and gluing another barrel on along with an extended bullet belt (I saw it in the old Ork codex) so I don't think changing a slugga into a shoota would be too much hassle.

Unless you got most of your Orks from Black Reach sets you must have loads of spare shootas about the place.

Then you've got models who are either armed with shootas or are packing some hefty sluggas.

Keep the choppa boyz: Editions and codexes change.

Next codex the chopas will get rending under the waagh or something and you'll be kicking yourself in the ass that you got rid of them.

Solution= start collecting shoota boyz.

Any self respecting Warboss knows you can never have too many boyz...


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Bullockist wrote:my response would be stop playing a ridiculous game that requires you to paint 120 orks.

Do we really need to shoehorn these sorts of comments into an otherwise perfectly fine conversation.

But since you insisted I'll point out that Warmachine has also changed the effectiveness of models, so lets not pretend otherwise. My squads of trenchers used to work one way and then they changed smoke rules, etc.

Same with Haley, etc.

So no Warmachine is not the answer, nor is it immune to the problem discussed here. Can we get back on-topic now?


In any game which survives to have multiple rules editions and army lists things change. Players have to learn to adapt to those changes, ride out the changes until the next update (hoping for somethign more to thir liking) or be willing to buy into the new hotness.

I feel for the OP as I am in the same boat, however I just accept that I dont have enuff shootas to run a greentdie army and go with Battlewagon orks instead.

Counts As at a tournament is disrespectful to your opponent who has taken the time to model all his stuff WYSIWYG (maybe having to run a less then optimal list to do so)

However having become more of a WHFB player these days my orks seldom leave the shelf as I cant be bothered to spend the $300 I need too to make them work in 6th.

Well, I've more or less reconciled this issue by dropping my interest in tourney play.
My entire army is perfectly WYSIWYG accept my boyz, and they will NEVER be. And I'm ok with that.
I've never had a friendly game where someone had a problem with me running sluggas as shootas and I've also never had anyone "forget" they were shootas mid game either.
I'm happy to keep it friendly if that means I don't have to spend 200 bucks and 100 more hours of modeling and painting.
Perfectly fair trade in my opinion.

Fight like an Ork. The idiot boyz who turned up at this battle brought axes to a gunfight? Laugh as they're mown down, and laugh all the more when some of them hit the enemy and start carving the gun-toting gitz into small chunks of meat.

You're list is sub-optimal. Live with it. And enjoy the game!

(Seriously though, 120 Slugga boyz may not be as good as shoota boyz, but it's in no way a bad thing and can spend the entire game running. It'll be a laugh. Why yes I did lose repeatedly with a footslogging 3rd Ed codex Ork army, why do you ask?)

Mannahnin wrote:There still can be, as Polonius pointed out.

Doing this is basically putting the onus on all of your opponents to constantly remember, because you didn't want to go to the trouble of re-modeling a horde army when an edition changed.

This is something pretty much every tournament player goes through every time a new rulebook or codex for their army comes out. I've got a dozen painted vehicles for my BA. Do you know how many of them are in my list for tomorrow? Three.

The problem is exacerbated for the horde players, and we all sympathize. But that's the nature of the game, and it always has been.

I agree with the above.

WYSIWYG is not about some bizzare modeling dream cooked up by the design studio; it's about giving your opponent the very visual remeinder that these boys are x, not y. Handing him a list he has five minutes to look at (at most), and giving him a quick reminder may not suffice, especially when the day is long after three games in.

My point for you is- 120 boyz.


You can take away 31 or so. one turns into a Nob- (who is probibly different, anyway), the other couple turn into heavy shootas, then cut off the arms of the other 28 or so, and add in the extra shoota arms and snacks from the other sprues that you haven't used. the arms come off easily enough, just be careful not to lop off a tip of your finger, and cut away from yourself- down onto a cutting board, or so.

The arms are green, dry brush a lgihter shade, and the gloves, are either black or brown. the shootas themselves only need a black base coat, and drybrush metal for laughs, and a lighter shade of metal on and maybe a detail or two if you want to. Other then that, 1 Nob, 3 heavy shootas, which can be put together from parts from some extra shootas, and some of that sprue material, and a few of the cut off bits from the slugga's- mainly the drums, magazines/ or both.

Should be a day worth of a couple of hours painting and putting the arms back on. If you drybrush, or wash the arms, it won't even take that long.

I had the same issue with this, I used the old 2nd edition guys to begin with, then added in a couple of those 16 boyz boxes to change up the fill. You can either add them in, or change out the 31 that you were going to use that had the slugga/ choppa combo. ( Its an either or answer at the end of the day. Me? I would, if I were you, just use the same guys. They don't come as cheap as they once did.)

What you want to do is to use the shootas as the screen force.
Put the shoota mobs in front, the others behind, the first mob gets up there with the shots, the second uses shoota mob to screen, and runs in through mob 1, and has its mass screened and gets into close combat with the extra boyz. Make sure you have the space to run through with the other boyz. Some people get particular when they figured out too late, what you are going to be doing.

Just make sure you have enough arms and shootas to do the job with or some of them are going to be running around with one or no arms.

Had this issue as well.


Just my opinion. good luck to you.

I'm just going to end with this:

Why have 120 boyz when YOU CAN HAS 240!?

That is all.

malfred wrote:I'm just going to end with this:

Why have 120 boyz when YOU CAN HAS 240!?

That is all.

QFT

I can understand people having a problem with counting sluggas as shootas if you ran mobs of both types in a single game, but honestly, anybody who would have a problem about you counting every slugga as a shoota is probably not worth your time to play against anyway.

Like the two dudes I played against in two different tournaments last year who had combi-meltas on all their Wolf Guard, but none of them modeled? And coincidentally both had squads of long fangs modeled with a variety of weapons, but (shockingly) were playing them all as missile launchers?

In both cases, it was pretty easy to remember that "all the wolf guard have combi-meltas", and "all the heavy weapons are missile launchers", but it was still taking the piss in a serious way. I understand that collecting, building and painting all the right pieces for the most optimized possible list is a substantial investment of time, effort, and money. But feth, if you're going to play the goddam list, at least do me (and all your other opponents) the courtesy of collecting, painting and fielding the frickin' models. Instead, we had the joy of not only playing against the most common netlist, but having to tolerate proxies because the player was lazy and cheap.

I understand that 120 sluggas vs. shootas is another level of difficulty, time and expense. But it's a difference only of degree, not of kind. This is a modeling hobby. We all deal with the logistical and financial hurdles of fielding the optimized lists, or we compromise and don't max out our lists in favor of fielding the models we own and/or are able and willing to build and paint. I don't think it's cool to put the burden of acceptance and complaint on your opponents. It's taking the piss. It's being selfish and ungentlemanly. I was polite to both of those SW players. They were both younger guys and I was as encouraging and friendly as possible in talking with them about their modeling efforts. But it was stupid and annoying to look at on the table.

In fantasy, even the studio cuts corners on things like this... i.e., great weapons in the second rank, 2 hand weapons in front. It just sucks that GW alternates which has playable rules with every single edition.

Not saying it's OK to proxy, but it makes me want to play another game.

Seriously, I bust my ass to model combis and make sure all my wargear is correct. It isn't rocket science, just takes a bit of work.


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Oh and I would object to proxying and am still worth playing.

RiTides wrote:In fantasy, even the studio cuts corners on things like this... i.e., great weapons in the second rank, 2 hand weapons in front. It just sucks that GW alternates which has playable rules with every single edition.

Fantasy has, at least in the past, had a rule that the majority of the unit must be appropriately armed. Of course, in fantasy you're also building and painting 3-4 times as many models, and can "hide" a lot of them in the back ranks.

Agreed, Mann- was just an example that came to mind and one that particularly bothered me when I played fantasy, since it was clear why the change was being made to the rules.

I'm rather late to the party, but did you try checking with the TO?

Mannahnin wrote:
In both cases, it was pretty easy to remember that "all the wolf guard have combi-meltas", and "all the heavy weapons are missile launchers", but it was still taking the piss in a serious way. I understand that collecting, building and painting all the right pieces for the most optimized possible list is a substantial investment of time, effort, and money. But feth, if you're going to play the goddam list, at least do me (and all your other opponents) the courtesy of collecting, painting and fielding the frickin' models. Instead, we had the joy of not only playing against the most common netlist, but having to tolerate proxies because the player was lazy and cheap.

Exalted.