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I do feel like that's a bit of a different issue, though (as Mannahnin said in the next paragraph). I would hate for someone to have to chop up 120 well painted models... but what can you really do?

Again in fantasy, but I converted my models to be somewhat generic in terms of their weapons... it's just hard when you're doing so many and then they hit with pillow fists due to a rules change. I see the fault with the company... but obviously, players using combi-weapons should darn well have them modelled...

Yeah, but that's part of the game. Editions and codexes change and models go in an out of style. A broad collection is the best defense. I have stacks of bits and models that used to be good in one edition or codex or another. A little remodeling, some touch ups and they are good as new.

I actually rather enjoy that part. It gives a completely painted and modeled army new life when you need to update it.

RiTides wrote:I do feel like that's a bit of a different issue, though (as Mannahnin said in the next paragraph). I would hate for someone to have to chop up 120 well painted models... but what can you really do?

You can do what most sensible people playing a game would do and count the sluggas as shootas.

helium42 wrote:

RiTides wrote:I do feel like that's a bit of a different issue, though (as Mannahnin said in the next paragraph). I would hate for someone to have to chop up 120 well painted models... but what can you really do?

You can do what most sensible people playing a game would do and count the sluggas as shootas.

Stop equating a want for WYSIWYG with a lack of sensibility or presence of dickishness. It undermines your argument.

We all appreciate WYSIWYG. It protects us from having to exchange notes with our opponents before a game that highlight all of the different wargear we might be proxying on a regular basis. The difference between our stances is that you are asking for a black and white solution, where I have a shades of grey solution. Somebody wanting to count all sluggas as shootas in his army is not going to mentally tax his opponent or create any problems for the regular person. That person pretty much follows WYSIWYG. Somebody with a several different counts-as pieces, who needs notes to keep track of them is potentially causing problems for his opponent and is not at all following WYSIWYG.

You can live in your OC black and white world and worry about somebody who might roll into your FLGS with sluggas that count-as shootas, and I'll live in my shades of grey world and not sweat the small stuff.

Bit this thread is about tourneys. If the tourney wants wysiwyg then counts as sluggas as shootas is not allowed and to show up and expect rules not to apply to you is rude.

Casual play, feel free to ask for exceptions. Tourneys, you know the rules for the event. Follow them or stay home.

Besides, shootas have been king for 5 years now. And you can ebay aobr boys and shoota arms for around 1$ per boy or even less with some effort. Of all of units in all the codex, it is the easiest to make, cheapest to expand and you should have been slowly massing shootas for 5 yeArs now. Claiming you need to proxy nOw doesn't ring true to me And reeks of people not wanting tourney rules to apply to them.

My vote is also for slinging the shootas on their backs.

If this tournament allows 3rd party bits, get ones from Kromlech because they're nice. Alternately, you can use these pistols because they are still clearly big enough to be shootas, but a little more compact. The reason I suggest one of these is because you won't have to figure out the grips.

However, I would not glue them. After painting them, I'd glue a pin into the guns - a longish one. Then I'd drill a pinhole in the back in an unobtrusive place where it looks natural to hang. In my experience, a good pin - the thickess of a paper clip - will hold them in place quite well for casual use, but still allow them to be removed for playing them as Choppa Boyz.

I'm not seeing the issue with modelling them exactly as they are listed in the book, with both a Slugga and Choppa.

Well I play a good number of tournaments and if someone had a 120 black reach orks, and said "They're all shoota's" before the game I would have no problem with that.

My problem is when they have 1 guy in the unit with a melta-gun who's not modelled, and he can't seem to remeber which one he said exactly has the melta.

Thanks for all the responses guys. And I appreciate the lively debate. I have however, bowed out of tourney play for just the arguments stated above. I started playing about a year and a half ago, and I got all my boyz from the AoBR set. I was a new player, and not versed in how important WYSIWYG is in tourneys, I was really just following the 5th Ed. statement that count as is a very accepted practice. And so I never stopped to consider how that might impact me later.
I'm not inclined to redo 100+ hours of painting (I try to paint to a good table top standard) and $200 to make myself tourney legal. It's just not worth it to me. I'd rather just keep playing friendly games where if someone has a problem with my counts as, I can apologize for the inconvenience and move on to someone who doesn't. For the record, no one has ever declined to play me because of it, and no one has ever had a problem remembering that I was running shootas (Which I have done since I started playing)
I respect the TOs decision. I just don't intend on ever, ever, ever, painting up another 120 boyz. Did I mention ever?

Why does that make you want to not paly tournaments. I can understand not trying to play them as shootas, but why not play tournaments with sluggas?

I am going to do a full blog post on this eventually, but I plan to keep all 130 of my boyz as sluggas. The fact that no retreat wounds is gone means that more boyz will stick in combat. This means that it is ever more important to have an extra 20 or 30 attacks in the later rounds of the fight. Taking subpar guns in my eyes is not worth losing that extra attack.

Yeah, I would just run them as what I have. Wouldn't be the first time I didn't take the 'omg most optimal' choice because of model availability.

Mostly because I don't like running sluggas. I don't really like how orks play as a CC army.

pretre wrote:Yeah, I would just run them as what I have. Wouldn't be the first time I didn't take the 'omg most optimal' choice because of model availability.

You make it sound as if taking the best option for your army is a bad or shameful thing. It is a shame that there are so many people responding against counting the sluggas as shootas that the OP is discouraged from even attempting to play them as such in a tourney that would allow it, and on top of it, has to feel like a WAAC player for even considering it.

The point of WYSIWYG is to prevent confusion, and I don't think counting a bunch of slugga boys as shoota boys, if they're all shoota boys is confusing at all.

I understand WYSIWYG with respect to, say, special weapons, but as long as it's not confusing, it's a very grognardy thing to prevent people from playing what they want.

Wait, you don't like running them but painted up 120 of them anyways?

This would be a case in point for playing your army a couple times before fully buying/completing it.

Or, you grew tired of them, in which case I feel for you.


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helium42 wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, I would just run them as what I have. Wouldn't be the first time I didn't take the 'omg most optimal' choice because of model availability.

You make it sound as if taking the best option for your army is a bad or shameful thing. It is a shame that there are so many people responding against counting the sluggas as shootas that the OP is discouraged from even attempting to play them as such in a tourney that would allow it, and on top of it, has to feel like a WAAC player for even considering it.

You are completely misreading me, which is probably my fault. First off, drop the WAAC business. That's just silly. Taking the best option is not a bad or shameful thing. Proxying the best option is. When I have been faced between the choice of proxying or fielding a slightly less effective option, I will always go with the latter.

As well, the specific tourney that he was considering weighed in on the subject before the thread was even started. It is too bad that he swore off all tourneys because of this, but that is what happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Panzeh wrote:I understand WYSIWYG with respect to, say, special weapons, but as long as it's not confusing, it's a very grognardy thing to prevent people from playing what they want.

What is the point of calling people names because they want to have people play WYSIWYG? It is happening way too much in this thread.

pretre wrote:Wait, you don't like running them but painted up 120 of them anyways?

This would be a case in point for playing your army a couple times before fully buying/completing it.

Or, you grew tired of them, in which case I feel for you.

I'm just going to quote myself from about halfway up this page...

matphat wrote:"I started playing about a year and a half ago, and I got all my boyz from the AoBR set. I was a new player, and not versed in how important WYSIWYG is in tourneys, I was really just following the 5th Ed. statement that count as is a very accepted practice. And so I never stopped to consider how that might impact me later."

Yeah, I read that previously. I guess the problem then is that Playing Sluggas as Shootas is not counts-as but proxy. The previous editions had statements regarding counts-as, which is often confused with proxy, but is different.

I can certainly understand the confusion though.

I wouldn't worry too much. I play sub-par lists all the time at tournaments and still finish in the top half.

Besides it's good to shake yourself out of running the same list all the time. Makes you develope new tactics and sometimes you'll be like "Wow why did I never think of that before!"

Thanks. I'm more or less over the whole thing at this point. It was discouraging to find out that I'd either need to build all new models or forget the tourney, but ultimately I think I made the right decision. I love to model and paint, but I don't love the monotony of modeling and painting that many of the same model.
I bumbled in to 40k with no real guidance, and played my first 10 games with another person who had no idea what they were doing. It's kind of rearing it's ugly head now, but I'm not going to let it keep me from at least enjoying friendly games.

Theres nothing wrong with that. Issue comes up as was told by Mann, that you go in playing with one weapon on the model, then three turns in," in the heat of it", you have an issue of changing the weapon. ORKS- it is a very big deal.
It is one thing to have 120 guys screaming across the table- all with the same stuff. It is entirly a whole new war when you are sitting there mid move, stalling out the clock trying to figure out which of the boyz was supposed to have been the proxy Shootaz and Lootaz, while the other guys were supposed to be in which fireteam grouping.

I had an issue with this myself. then I got smart and just up and cut off arms and weapons, added what was supposed to be there, and never had issue again. it was a costly lession all around, and I didn't do myself any favors on it.
What happens is=
You more or less are going to get a finger wag from the refs, you opponent is going to have a bad taste in thier mouth, and your going to be confused the rest of the way through the games when you have the same issue- for three more opponents. People don't hgave patience for those kinds of "OOPS" plays in a regular game. They get hot about it in tournies. especially the indecision parts. people have a habit of getting into all of your calls at that point. Not many people like that sort of situation.

As an ork player- You might invest in buying some second or third hand shoota mobs, and some extra heavy stubber boyz. Then they are differently modeled guys, you are not going to have to work too hard to fit them into the Waagh! and they give the army that come one, come all look.

30 or so guys shouldn't be that big a deal. That, or maybe you can trade some of the 120 off to another ork player that might need some extra close combat love.

I don't see a need just to outright blow off the extra firepower. Your going to need it if even half of whats being said about the 6th edition is true. Your going to really need it when those chargers come up short on you, and you have those guys there to mow those that want to test the waagh, and come up short on a charge.

Then the close combat guys roll up from behind them and finish what the shootaz started.

I understand about those AOBR guys, though. theres no getting around those sculpts. Try looking around for some Bits deals, too. You can find plenty of half put together mobs, and extra weaponry from other factions. Use a few tau guns, IG guns, and eldar guns, with some other stuff tacked in there for the mix. Maybe even unify the look by using scraps from other armies per mob.

Thats a good thing about Orks. Anything works well, as long as you put a good coat of red paint on it.
If you want it to work extra well, put on two coats.

Don't be discouraged from playing in a tournament or two, once in awhile. its a completly different mindset, and the stakes are much higher- You truly see a different side of 40K, thats for sure.

Goood luck on those guys, though.

matphat wrote:Thanks. I'm more or less over the whole thing at this point. It was discouraging to find out that I'd either need to build all new models or forget the tourney, but ultimately I think I made the right decision. I love to model and paint, but I don't love the monotony of modeling and painting that many of the same model.
I bumbled in to 40k with no real guidance, and played my first 10 games with another person who had no idea what they were doing. It's kind of rearing it's ugly head now, but I'm not going to let it keep me from at least enjoying friendly games.

I'm just saddened to hear that you decided to stay away from tourneys as a whole. For me, tournaments are a great way to meet and play people outside of my normal gaming circle. You get to see armies you don't see during your usual game nights, and you generally will run into stronger lists which is challenging and fun.

I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

helium42 wrote:I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

Except most tournaments require WYSIWYG. So you are saying in the majority of your tournaments, folks aren't playing by the rules. That is pretty out there.

pretre wrote:

helium42 wrote:I think you are hearing a very vocal minority in this thread. I can't recall a tournament I have played in where I didn't come up against somebody with a WYSIWYG issue, but beyond playing one bizarre entire counts-as army, I never had a problem with it. I don't think you would have any problems in your case with either tournament organizers or players. And if a TO did have an issue, you can always simply decline to play.

Except most tournaments require WYSIWYG. So you are saying in the majority of your tournaments, folks aren't playing by the rules. That is pretty out there.

It's out there, but very true

Guess that isn't my experience.

pretre wrote:Except most tournaments require WYSIWYG. So you are saying in the majority of your tournaments, folks aren't playing by the rules. That is pretty out there.

WYSIWYG is to prevent shenanigens, especially in tournaments. I have yet to see a serious tournament not enforce it.

As for the OP, I would just take a sharp #11 blade and cut off the choppas and slugga gun barrels, then glue on Shoota gun barrels to the pistol boddies. No need to repaint the whole legion, just touch up the hands and gun barrels.

Or you could just play them as Slugga/Choppa boyz.

matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

RiTides wrote:matphat- A number of us have suggested slinging sluggas on their backs. Have you considered this? Wouldn't require taking a knife to your painted models.

That doesn't make them wysiwyg as it is over modeling. Giving a boy a slugga, shoota and choppa is even more confusing. That is like giving every sarge a power sword, axe and fist and choosing what you need at gametime. In a tourney your opponent is back to not understanding what the model is and having to use paper lists to decode.

Besides, there are very valid reasons to take both shootas and sluggas in the same list. To limit yourself to only one kind you are doing yourself a disservice.

I have never seen a tourney where non-wyswiyg upgrades was allowed. And shoota/choppa is an upgrade and not base equipment like marines who just come with everything.

nkelsch wrote:I have never seen a tourney where non-wyswiyg upgrades was allowed. And shoota/choppa is an upgrade and not base equipment like marines who just come with everything.

While I agree in theory, this is certainly not the case in practice... at least in tournies I've been to. Not saying that's OK, but there's a difference between what's OK "in theory" and what actually transpires in tournies. I'd be shocked if you had personally been to even a few tournaments and not seen at least ONE case of a non-wysiwyg upgrade, in your words.

I would, Personally, have no problem playing against his 120 boyz in a tournament, if he put the sluggas on their backs. YMMV...

scarletsquig wrote:Just make the Shootas.

Don't sell off your Choppas, you'll probably regret it when either the 6th edition Ork Codex or 7th edition comes out and Choppas are the overpowered unit of choice again.

*Never* convert based on the rules, or you'll end up like one of those people who spraypaints their marines a new colour every time the new codex comes out.

I agree, I have units in my arsenal that I do not use but hope one day will be viable.

Just to nit-pick though, the marines thing is slightly off as there is no ruling on army colorations only on weaponry. So someone who re-sprays their army for FOTM is showing even more signs of weakness than to simply keep them the color they like (no matter what codex it might have been influenced from) and focusing on the correct weapon loadouts.

I recently played in the first to fight in Raleigh NC at the new GW store and ran my Ultramarines (Alpha Company of the Ultramarines as I call them) and used the BA book for my 500pt list. Not one person complained, matter of fact I had more people asking if they could pick up and look at my miniatures (even ones they saw in my case) which was refreshing.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I think that keeping your Choppas is the best route, you never know when they might be useful again and having put all that time and dedication into them would hurt so much more if in a year you find yourself wishing you had them again. In the event you invest in new models you might consider magnetizing them, if possible, to help alleviate possible problems in the future. I magnetized the right arm of my assault squad Sgts for example so I could equip them with different weapons. (I do realize doing a whole army would be much more daunting of a task though).

pretre wrote:Yeah, but that's part of the game. Editions and codexes change and models go in an out of style. A broad collection is the best defense.

The best defense is simply not to have anything to do with rules that change to sell more miniatures. 6 editions and they still can't get the points cost/balance right for ork boyz with two different weapon load outs?

It's part of the game because the commercial interest is corrupting the game design to sell models. Or incompetence in game design after 25 years of GW failing to get things right.

I'm beginning to see the wisdom more and more in having miniatures from one company and rules from another. No conflicts of interest in game design that way.

I'm also a non-tournament player, who's never really gotten the desire for things to be "legal" or "official." If I did happen to find myself in a 40k tournament and an Ork player told me his slugga boyz had shootas, I'd be like "Cool. Let's play."