Buttons wrote:

Neighbor Kid wrote:LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

Why? No one refuses to take the Vanquisher or Conqueror because they are too soft, they refuse to take them because they don't do as much damage as the LRBT or they are inferior at their niche role to various other units. The exterminator is simply redundant most of the time with the dozens of ways to get autocannons, from chimeras, to basic squads, to HWS.

my response- I uped the points due to the fact of it being able to fire an HE shell now with an additional HP....

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

All Russ versions have equal protection on the side as a medium tank (Predator, Hammerhead), so that doesn't need to be improved, and RA 11 already represents the boosted armour. Also, why would they get 5 hull points? I can understand them having as many as a land raider since they are the heaviest vehicles in the game after Land Raiders and Monoliths, but 5? IIRC super heavies have 3 HP per structure point, which would mean that they would have almost as many as a Macharius. I already take Demolishers, I hate executioners and view them as redundant and overpriced, but still, with side armour 14 and 5 hull points they would be a complete no brainer.

my response- Equal protection is not as good as upgrading the armor.. You need to be in close with those 3 tanks with their main weapons.. Demo- 24 Punisher -24 and Execution- 36 all short range which means you are in range for just about ALL A.T. weapons and meltas getting that close is bad news bears. ALSO its to balance out the fact that infantry in CC with a tank is just about a dead duck.. this would be able to make it able to survive or more likely to survive and CC encounter.

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

LOL, yeah lets make one of the most redundant vehicles in the codex (Vanquisher) cost 170 points before upgrades. Besides that most variants are greatly undercosted.

my response- ^ Vanq reasoning already stated.

-"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Why are your tanks getting assaulted so much that you want this as a special rule? You should protect them with some infantry, whether mechanized vets, foot slogging infantry, or mechanized infantry squads.

my response- Deep strike? For some reason my dice rolling has sucked or something but when someone deep strikes and gets direct hits... normally a dead tank either from CC or high ST low range weapons ( tau problems..target lock..that rule that i learned a day ago no longer has an effect horray! thats some cheap bs)

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

Who would pay 240 points for 5 small blast templates anyway? <- FNP takes it away...range 36 so your not slow close..this is the ultimate marine killer... nuff said

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

Honestly the Vanquisher should simply be priced less than the LRBT, even if not by much, it will never be a truly efficient option until it is priced less than the LRBT.

Honestly the only variants that actually need improvement are the Punisher, Eradicator, Vanquisher, and Executioner, and all of them sans the Eradicator can be made better options simply by minor price decreases. Would it be nice if a Vanquisher could fire HE shells? Sure. Would it make me more inclined to take it? Not really. I spend the entire game firing my Vanquisher at vehicles, hell it takes 3-4 turns on average to kill an AV 14 vehicle outright simply because of the low BS. The only one that can be improved with rules is the Vanquisher and all you would need to do is make it AP 1.

Valkyrie wrote:

Neighbor Kid wrote:I truly think the Russ needs to be updated along with various other vehicles..... heres my proposal for the russ.

LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

5 HP? You have to be kidding. 3 is plenty on any variant. Remember that these tanks can be taken in squadrons as well.

my response- your either not an IG player or lying to your self.. because 3 HP for the back bone of the IG is not enough 4 would be what i woudl push for.

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

Exterminator and Punisher seem a bit overpriced IMO

Lumbering Behemoth-
-8+D6 To take away the 6+D + flat out 6 to be possibly 18... its a heavy tank.. it will be slower then most.
- Move 6 inches and fire all weapons at full BS
-
"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Don't see why this vehicle in particular gets overwatch.

my response- reread i put in () that ALL sponsons class weapons for other tanks should have this ability.

Now for tank specific rules.

MBT- none. This is your all around tank you fall too when in a pinch.
DEMO- None- This is a ST 10 tank made for seiges in old editions .. its balanced. as per my rules.

Exterminator- Skyfire/ Interceptor rules for 5 points train crew
Good idea, I'd say downgrade the cost of the Exterminator and give it Skyfire/Interceptor for 15-20pts.

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

The main fluff behind the Executioner was that it was notorious for overheating. Surely an earlier design would mean that cooling tech would have improved since then?

my response- Did not see this if so then i would let the plasma sponsons cause a glancing hit.

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

I would keep it as it is. S8 Ap2 2D6, but I woudl also add an option for a Co-Axial Autocannon or Heavy Stubber

my response- not a good solution the HE round idea is better IMO

Punisher- Skyfire/ Interceptor for 5 points. train crew. Incendiary punisher ammo- 40 points Shots are at ST4 AP 5 No cover save as the area covered by this deadly hail of bolts are essentially fireballs when they hit. ( this is not a for fetched idea.. Bolters fire RPG bullets that detonate after penetration) .....

I can't see this one being an AA vehicle. Sure, the Exterminator's Autocannons act like Hydra Autocannons but this is more akin to a minigun. 40pts to ignore cover is a lot. I would suggest that the weapon should have some sort of effect to Pinning tests, how about "For every casualty caused by the Punisher Cannon, the enemy suffers a -1 penalty to their Pinning test. Even though it's 20 shots, let's face it, with no Ap value you won't be killing whole squads anytime soon.

Conqueror - St 7 AP4 Conqueror battle cannon
- Enhanced Gyrostabilizers : This system grants the Leman russ Conqueror to fire its main weapon at cruising speed. This is to show that the lighter weight of the shell with enhanced gyrostabilizers affords better ability to remain on target compared to the heavier Battle tank shells weight. Shooting at crusiering speed you do not subtract BS when firing the main gun. At combat speed the blast can scatter 1D6 instead of the normal 2 <- this is what the tank was made for back in 2nd edition.. move and shoot main gun.. just thought id bring a comeback for it.

I would just rather not move as much and keep the S8 Ap3 large blast. To make this variant a viable choice, you'd have to reduce the points a lot, remove some of the sponson options to keep it akin to a faster, lighter variant, although I'd say that just making the main gun Heavy 2, Blast would be fine enough.

my response- you get a 1 less st and 1 less ap for being able to drive cruising speed to fire your main weapons.. how is that so terrible? fine upgrade it to large blast non ordinance.


As for the Annihilator, that could just be fixed by upgrading the Lascannon turret to Heavy 2, Twin Linked.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I was hung up on the 3 Hull Points, then I used a squadron if 3 of them and understood why they don't have 4 each. Being able to shuffle them around to shield the damaged tanks means that they're incredibly resilient as it is.

Neighbor Kid wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Neighbor Kid wrote:LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

Why? No one refuses to take the Vanquisher or Conqueror because they are too soft, they refuse to take them because they don't do as much damage as the LRBT or they are inferior at their niche role to various other units. The exterminator is simply redundant most of the time with the dozens of ways to get autocannons, from chimeras, to basic squads, to HWS.

my response- I uped the points due to the fact of it being able to fire an HE shell now with an additional HP....

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

All Russ versions have equal protection on the side as a medium tank (Predator, Hammerhead), so that doesn't need to be improved, and RA 11 already represents the boosted armour. Also, why would they get 5 hull points? I can understand them having as many as a land raider since they are the heaviest vehicles in the game after Land Raiders and Monoliths, but 5? IIRC super heavies have 3 HP per structure point, which would mean that they would have almost as many as a Macharius. I already take Demolishers, I hate executioners and view them as redundant and overpriced, but still, with side armour 14 and 5 hull points they would be a complete no brainer.

my response- Equal protection is not as good as upgrading the armor.. You need to be in close with those 3 tanks with their main weapons.. Demo- 24 Punisher -24 and Execution- 36 all short range which means you are in range for just about ALL A.T. weapons and meltas getting that close is bad news bears. ALSO its to balance out the fact that infantry in CC with a tank is just about a dead duck.. this would be able to make it able to survive or more likely to survive and CC encounter.

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

LOL, yeah lets make one of the most redundant vehicles in the codex (Vanquisher) cost 170 points before upgrades. Besides that most variants are greatly undercosted.

my response- ^ Vanq reasoning already stated.

-"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Why are your tanks getting assaulted so much that you want this as a special rule? You should protect them with some infantry, whether mechanized vets, foot slogging infantry, or mechanized infantry squads.

my response- Deep strike? For some reason my dice rolling has sucked or something but when someone deep strikes and gets direct hits... normally a dead tank either from CC or high ST low range weapons ( tau problems..target lock..that rule that i learned a day ago no longer has an effect horray! thats some cheap bs)

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

Who would pay 240 points for 5 small blast templates anyway? <- FNP takes it away...range 36 so your not slow close..this is the ultimate marine killer... nuff said

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

Honestly the Vanquisher should simply be priced less than the LRBT, even if not by much, it will never be a truly efficient option until it is priced less than the LRBT.

Honestly the only variants that actually need improvement are the Punisher, Eradicator, Vanquisher, and Executioner, and all of them sans the Eradicator can be made better options simply by minor price decreases. Would it be nice if a Vanquisher could fire HE shells? Sure. Would it make me more inclined to take it? Not really. I spend the entire game firing my Vanquisher at vehicles, hell it takes 3-4 turns on average to kill an AV 14 vehicle outright simply because of the low BS. The only one that can be improved with rules is the Vanquisher and all you would need to do is make it AP 1.

Valkyrie wrote:

Neighbor Kid wrote:I truly think the Russ needs to be updated along with various other vehicles..... heres my proposal for the russ.

LR MBT/ Vanquisher/ Exterminator/ Conqueror - F 14 Side 13 Rear 11 4 HP BS3

LR Demolisher/ Punisher/ Executioner- F 14 Side 14 Rear 11 5HP BS3 These are all close support tanks and in the older books the demolisher was built for taking fire and getting close. it used to be in city fights and shots at the tank from above all resulted on the side when all other tanks were rear.

5 HP? You have to be kidding. 3 is plenty on any variant. Remember that these tanks can be taken in squadrons as well.

my response- you're either not an IG player or lying to your self.. because 3 HP for the back bone of the IG is not enough 4 would be what i woudl push for.

As the owner of 7 Leman Russes I can pretty much confirm that I play IG and I'm not lying to myself. You can take up to 9 of these in a <2K FOC, why do you need 4 HP?

MBT - 155
Demo- 170
Punisher-175
Exterminator- 160
Executioner- 200
Vanquisher-170
Conqueror-150

Exterminator and Punisher seem a bit overpriced IMO

Lumbering Behemoth-
-8+D6 To take away the 6+D + flat out 6 to be possibly 18... its a heavy tank.. it will be slower then most.
- Move 6 inches and fire all weapons at full BS
-
"They 're coming from all directions!!!" if sponsons are purchased they grant the tank overwatch ( including the hull weapon! If in arc) ( really should be for all tanks with "sponson" classed weapons)

Don't see why this vehicle in particular gets overwatch.

my response- reread i put in () that ALL sponsons class weapons for other tanks should have this ability.

Deal with it, your tanks are going to be assaulted every now and again. A good IG player could bubblewrap his LRBTs with expendable troops.

Now for tank specific rules.

MBT- none. This is your all around tank you fall too when in a pinch.
DEMO- None- This is a ST 10 tank made for seiges in old editions .. its balanced. as per my rules.

Exterminator- Skyfire/ Interceptor rules for 5 points train crew
Good idea, I'd say downgrade the cost of the Exterminator and give it Skyfire/Interceptor for 15-20pts.

Executioner- Plasma coolers- This tank was made eons ago.. it has the technology of the long time ago.. thus has coolors so instead of resulting on a -1 HP for sponson plasma weapons ( as the executioner plasma does not get not) should no longer suffer this problem and only result in the weapon no firing.

The main fluff behind the Executioner was that it was notorious for overheating. Surely an earlier design would mean that cooling tech would have improved since then?

my response- Did not see this if so then i would let the plasma sponsons cause a glancing hit.

Vanquisher- AP shell hits at St 8 + 2D6, OR and HE shell at ST 8 AP 4 or 5 if you think its too OP( to be considerate that this is meant to be a tank destroyer)

I would keep it as it is. S8 Ap2 2D6, but I woudl also add an option for a Co-Axial Autocannon or Heavy Stubber

my response- not a good solution the HE round idea is better IMO

I don't get what you mean. You think a S8 Ap4/5 shot is better than S8 Ap2 2D6?

Punisher- Skyfire/ Interceptor for 5 points. train crew. Incendiary punisher ammo- 40 points Shots are at ST4 AP 5 No cover save as the area covered by this deadly hail of bolts are essentially fireballs when they hit. ( this is not a for fetched idea.. Bolters fire RPG bullets that detonate after penetration) .....

I can't see this one being an AA vehicle. Sure, the Exterminator's Autocannons act like Hydra Autocannons but this is more akin to a minigun. 40pts to ignore cover is a lot. I would suggest that the weapon should have some sort of effect to Pinning tests, how about "For every casualty caused by the Punisher Cannon, the enemy suffers a -1 penalty to their Pinning test. Even though it's 20 shots, let's face it, with no Ap value you won't be killing whole squads anytime soon.

Conqueror - St 7 AP4 Conqueror battle cannon
- Enhanced Gyrostabilizers : This system grants the Leman russ Conqueror to fire its main weapon at cruising speed. This is to show that the lighter weight of the shell with enhanced gyrostabilizers affords better ability to remain on target compared to the heavier Battle tank shells weight. Shooting at crusiering speed you do not subtract BS when firing the main gun. At combat speed the blast can scatter 1D6 instead of the normal 2 <- this is what the tank was made for back in 2nd edition.. move and shoot main gun.. just thought id bring a comeback for it.

I would just rather not move as much and keep the S8 Ap3 large blast. To make this variant a viable choice, you'd have to reduce the points a lot, remove some of the sponson options to keep it akin to a faster, lighter variant, although I'd say that just making the main gun Heavy 2, Blast would be fine enough.

my response- you get a 1 less st and 1 less ap for being able to drive cruising speed to fire your main weapons.. how is that so terrible? fine upgrade it to large blast non ordinance.

Doesn't make it terrible, just that there are far better options to take. Given the choice of a Conqueror or a standard LRBT I'd go for the latter every time.


As for the Annihilator, that could just be fixed by upgrading the Lascannon turret to Heavy 2, Twin Linked.